2025-05-06 17:02:21 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !startmeeting FESCO (2025-05-06)

2025-05-06 17:02:22 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2025-05-06 17:02:21 UTC
2025-05-06 17:02:22 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'FESCO (2025-05-06)'
2025-05-06 17:02:25 <@salimma:fedora.im> !hi
2025-05-06 17:02:27 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
2025-05-06 17:02:27 <@fale:fale.io> !hi
2025-05-06 17:02:29 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Fabio Alessandro Locati (fale) - he / him / his
2025-05-06 17:02:30 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !meetingname fesco
2025-05-06 17:02:30 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !group members fesco
2025-05-06 17:02:31 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting Name is now fesco
2025-05-06 17:02:33 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> !hi
2025-05-06 17:02:33 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !hi
2025-05-06 17:02:34 <@zodbot:fedora.im> David Cantrell (dcantrell) - he / him / his
2025-05-06 17:02:35 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek (zbyszek)
2025-05-06 17:02:36 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> morning
2025-05-06 17:02:50 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !topic Init Process
2025-05-06 17:02:55 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I guess that this happened above.
2025-05-06 17:03:03 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> We have 5.
2025-05-06 17:03:16 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> But Neal Gompa (Fedora) would be useful.
2025-05-06 17:03:19 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Let's wait a bit.
2025-05-06 17:03:55 <@salimma:fedora.im> what happened?
2025-05-06 17:04:00 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2025-05-06 17:04:05 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2025-05-06 17:04:16 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> People introducing themselves.
2025-05-06 17:04:32 <@salimma:fedora.im> ah
2025-05-06 17:04:34 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> !hi
2025-05-06 17:04:35 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Fabio Valentini (decathorpe) - he / him / his
2025-05-06 17:04:44 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !fesco 3408
2025-05-06 17:04:44 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> 
2025-05-06 17:04:44 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !topic #3408 Change: Wayland-only GNOME
2025-05-06 17:05:49 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> As I wrote in the ticket, I just don't see the point.
2025-05-06 17:06:32 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> The issue is that the GNOME X11 session is basically rotting, and it has been for several releases now.
2025-05-06 17:07:13 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Sure, but there's still a small minority really attached to it.
2025-05-06 17:07:15 <@salimma:fedora.im> related case in point - Xwayland was broken and nobody even noticed? it's definitely on life support
2025-05-06 17:07:17 <@fale:fale.io> although I agree that there is no "direct" benefit for the users, X11 is not maintained anymore and sooner or later we will need to drop it. From what I'm seeing Wayland now seems to work well for ~all scenarios, so it sound like a good moment to do so
2025-05-06 17:07:20 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I heard on the grapevine that GNOME upstream might expedite the removal of the x11 code path to be with the next release instead of the next-next? 
2025-05-06 17:07:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Yeah, it's increasingly looking like it will be removed in GNOME 49 instead of GNOME 50.
2025-05-06 17:07:41 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> yes, there's talk about dropping it in 49
2025-05-06 17:07:43 <@salimma:fedora.im> can we coordinate with GNOME and do it on the same release? given half the WG people are GNOME upstream
2025-05-06 17:08:03 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> which would make it... in the f43 fedora, which would make this change match that
2025-05-06 17:08:07 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yeah if gnome 49 is increasingly likely then I don't think fedora downstream can do much here 
2025-05-06 17:08:36 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> how was Xwayland broken? that shouldn't have anything to do with this... ?
2025-05-06 17:09:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> GNOME Session has some stuff coupled with X11 sessions that also applied to Wayland, that was now fixed.
2025-05-06 17:09:38 <@salimma:fedora.im> I said related - just highlighting that the entire X stack is not very well tested to the point that breakages make it to final releases unnoticed
2025-05-06 17:10:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> And the maintainers of the software upstream are also the maintainers in Fedora, who are also just not interested in working on the code. Nobody is interested in fixing Mutter X11 bugs beyond Xwayland on Wayland stuff.
2025-05-06 17:10:23 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I'm just curious what the breakage was... I don't recall seeing anything? but I guess thats a sidetrack.
2025-05-06 17:10:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the breakage was that orca and xsettings services weren't exposed to X11 applications
2025-05-06 17:11:07 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> So why don't we just declare those sessions unsupported and let users make their choice?
2025-05-06 17:11:08 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> you would have only noticed if you were using a gtk2 or fltk app, as an example
2025-05-06 17:11:11 <@salimma:fedora.im> but yes let's get back on track
2025-05-06 17:11:16 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> even gtk3 wouldn't have been affected since it does it differently
2025-05-06 17:12:26 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> zbyszek: how would you make them "unsupported"? publish the packages only in COPR?
2025-05-06 17:13:13 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I meant make the Change page say: Gnome X11 sessions are now unsupported. Remaining users are encouraged to switch. Upstream will remove support in the next release.
2025-05-06 17:13:22 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> Part of the issue here is that it's not just adding on/maintaining a seperate drop in package, it's gdm/mutter/etc...
2025-05-06 17:13:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that doesn't stop the bug reports and people on the internet saying that we have a broken distro because they read things on the internet saying use X11
2025-05-06 17:13:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the situation is bad enough that even it was noticed by linux tech news
2025-05-06 17:14:01 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> zbyszek: or... in this release. ;)
2025-05-06 17:14:08 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> zbyszek: that's a bit beside the point if the next release ... is f43?
2025-05-06 17:14:21 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> But are those "people on the internet" really the problem? In the discussions in Fedora, we had a bunch of people pop up and say that they use X11 because $reasons.
2025-05-06 17:14:22 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> perhaps we should punt to next week and see if there's more clarity on upstreams plans?
2025-05-06 17:14:44 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> The Change page still says "Gnome 50".
2025-05-06 17:15:07 <@alatiera:matrix.org> GNOME Release-Team upstream will have a meeting to discuss this topic in like 2 hours
2025-05-06 17:15:20 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> ^ that's why I haven't changed the Change document yet
2025-05-06 17:15:24 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> So I'd say "punt" too.
2025-05-06 17:15:33 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> Punt+1
2025-05-06 17:15:40 <@salimma:fedora.im> Punt+2
2025-05-06 17:15:43 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> note that there's no point in a Change document if GNOME does it before us
2025-05-06 17:15:46 <@fale:fale.io> Punt+1
2025-05-06 17:15:55 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> that too :D
2025-05-06 17:16:12 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> or, rather, it will just be part of the non-existent GNOME 49 CP
2025-05-06 17:16:17 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> The change is still very much useful to advertise to users whats happening.
2025-05-06 17:16:18 <@salimma:fedora.im> it might still be worth a Change Proposal for documentation reason but it will just be pro forma, yeah
2025-05-06 17:16:28 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> nah, I'd just drop the Change document entirely
2025-05-06 17:16:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> there's no point in having it if it's deleted upstream
2025-05-06 17:16:44 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !info We punt until the next week. Gnome Release-Team will make a decision whether to accelerate upstream removal to next release of Gnome. 
2025-05-06 17:16:59 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> same reason we didn't actually have a Change to switch to wayland by default in gnome 10 years ago
2025-05-06 17:17:05 <@salimma:fedora.im> not saying you have to do it but I would probably suggest to one of the upstream devs in the Workstation WG if they would want to put up an informational CP
2025-05-06 17:17:09 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I too would prefer to have the "Change" page for informational reasons.
2025-05-06 17:17:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we just accepted what gnome did and didn't document it
2025-05-06 17:17:28 <@salimma:fedora.im> generally I would agree. but this is controversial enough (to some vocal minority)
2025-05-06 17:17:29 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> or at the very least something for the release notes.
2025-05-06 17:17:38 <@salimma:fedora.im> right. at least something in the release notes
2025-05-06 17:17:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> release notes can be handled without a change doc
2025-05-06 17:18:03 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I think big changes should be documented. It's important for people, and for publicity, and to have a place to comment on regressions.
2025-05-06 17:18:07 <@salimma:fedora.im> do we have quorum to punt?
2025-05-06 17:18:20 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> +1 to punt
2025-05-06 17:18:25 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I don't think we need to formally vote on punting.
2025-05-06 17:18:28 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> +0 punting
2025-05-06 17:18:32 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> f25: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault :)
2025-05-06 17:18:36 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> yeah, I didn't know how we wanted to do that
2025-05-06 17:18:37 <@salimma:fedora.im> ah. anyway, I guess I mean should we move on :)
2025-05-06 17:18:41 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !topic Next week's chair
2025-05-06 17:18:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that change never shipped
2025-05-06 17:18:49 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> note incomplete
2025-05-06 17:18:49 <@salimma:fedora.im> oh this is a fast meeting
2025-05-06 17:18:50 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Vounteers?
2025-05-06 17:19:16 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I can do next week
2025-05-06 17:19:29 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !action Fabio will chair next meeting.
2025-05-06 17:19:33 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I thought there was one. anyhow, will stop.
2025-05-06 17:19:33 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Thanks.
2025-05-06 17:19:39 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !topic Open Floor
2025-05-06 17:19:53 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> nirik: I did too until I did the research when I made KDE Wayland only
2025-05-06 17:20:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I knew because of the gnome release notes and fedora magazine article, not because of a fedora change
2025-05-06 17:21:42 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> OK, if there's nothing for open floor, I'll close in 30 s.
2025-05-06 17:21:56 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> nothing from me
2025-05-06 17:22:04 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !endmeeting