00:11:41 #startmeeting 00:11:41 Meeting started Tue Apr 8 00:11:41 2014 UTC. The chair is lorip. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 00:11:41 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 00:11:57 #topic update on Karl's course 00:12:05 so, how's it going? 00:12:27 The course has slowed down a bit at this point. 00:12:46 At the beginning of the semester, we were doing some of Becka's activities. 00:12:56 And I made up some of my own. 00:13:29 Then the students started choosing tickets from OpenMRS to work on. That's when it started to bog down. 00:13:53 why? 00:14:03 Three out of 4 groups chose tickets, assigned them to themselves, and got to work. 00:14:41 The fourth wanted to work on a ticket that was unassigned when they chose it, and then someone else jumped on it before they could assign it to themselves. 00:15:02 So, they found another, but it put them behind by a week or so. 00:15:12 Then the problem struck for them... 00:15:40 They had asked questions about their ticket to clarify what was expected, and they got back answers. 00:15:59 and this was a problem because... 00:16:25 The ticket involved wiki gardening. They started to make changes to the wiki based on the comments. 00:16:49 and? 00:17:03 Then OpenMRS people started noticing the changes, and didn't like the changes. 00:17:27 that's not good - they could reverse the changes, correct? 00:17:43 First they thought it was a bot, since the changes looked very search-and-replace-like. Yes, all their changes were reverted. 00:18:13 All their changes were reverted, and their wiki accounts were locked. 00:18:15 hi heidie - just getting an update on kwurst's course 00:18:29 Ah, cool! 00:18:40 Not really.... 00:18:42 yeah, not so cool when you hear what is going on 00:18:45 :-) 00:19:07 Umm, I came in about "wiki accounts were locked". That doesn't sound good? 00:19:29 The students chose a ticket involving wiki gardening. 00:19:41 Ah, OK. 00:20:00 They asked for comments on the ticket to see what they were supposed to do - they even asked about, and were told, how to word their changes. 00:20:31 Then people who had never looked at the ticket got upset about the changes, reverted them, and locked their accounts. 00:20:39 What project? 00:20:44 OpenMRS 00:20:44 so, what's your take? did they do what the ticket had requested? 00:21:24 I think they applied the changes a bit too mechanically. The changes made sense in some places, not so much in others. 00:22:03 so what do you do now? 00:22:04 I suggested they explain what they were doing, and how they had been instructed on the response to their ticket comment. 00:22:25 They did not get back much in the way of useful feedback. 00:22:46 So, they are moving on to another ticket at this point. 00:22:49 That's a bummer. 00:23:05 But, lack of feedback has been an issue for multiple groups. 00:23:12 I'm not sure why. 00:23:30 So what is the lesson learned? This is a great opportunity for them to learn about how things should have gone and how they can make sure that something like this doesn't happen when they're "real" developers. 00:23:56 Lots of people ask relatively newbie on the OpenMRS list and get answers, but my students have been somewhat ignored. 00:24:14 ^newbie *questions* 00:24:45 have you tried pinging the person we met at SIGCSE or Michael Downey, their community person? 00:25:16 I met Michael Downey at LibrePlanet. 00:25:24 Didn't do much more than introduce myself though. 00:25:33 I would definitely try him. 00:25:39 Michael Downey was the one who communicated to them about the problems with their edits, but they didn't feel he was helpful. 00:25:56 I didn't observe much of their interaction, because it happened in email. 00:26:25 And, I've never gotten around to introducing myself to the list... 00:26:31 :-) 00:26:56 Other groups are getting stuff done, but slowly. 00:27:17 First pull request went in today. We'll see how long it takes until they get a response. 00:27:29 do you think they are learning something (even if it wasn't what you anticipated)? 00:28:13 Yes, but I think they are a bit put off. They really believe that they tried to follow the instructions they were given, and they the rules were changed on them. 00:28:26 And, I'm really only hearing one side of the story. 00:28:49 Yes, but that still stinks from their perspective. 00:29:11 Only one group has written code yet, and they are stuck trying to test it right now. 00:29:26 The other two groups are writing in-code documentation. 00:30:08 Mostly putting annotations in code where OpenMRS has decided to use @should and @test to replace comments. 00:30:21 What's your take on having groups code as opposed to other activities (like wiki gardening or documentation)? 00:30:44 That was going to be my next question to you... 00:31:10 So, I've got 4 groups of 2-4 students. 00:31:19 Each group chose a ticket to work on. 00:31:52 I thought this would be a good idea, so that they had some local support in learning their way around the project. 00:32:09 And, they would have to do some local team/project management. 00:32:28 I guess is depends upon the class - in some classes I think the wide array of activities would be fine, in others I would think coding should be the focus. 00:33:05 I think the working as a team is working OK - they are even using their own issue trackers in their OpenMRS fork to keep track of tasks. 00:33:33 But, now I'm worrying about some of them slacking. 00:33:38 And, 00:34:24 I'm concerned that they won't all get commits on their GitHub account, because the person who got assigned the ticket will be the one who issues the pull request. 00:34:52 If OpenMRS wants them to squash their commits into a single commit for the ticket, it'll be under one name.\ 00:35:06 ahh - that is an interesting issue 00:35:41 Opinions? Has anyone else been have them work in groups, or do they all choose their own tickets? 00:35:58 heidie? this would be up your alley 00:36:19 * heidie reads back 00:36:32 This is when I wish we had more people here to recount experiences... 00:37:20 I agree - I know that Ben is having a crazy semester - I don't know when Becka is on break between terms. 00:37:53 I have them work in groups. 00:38:00 I think Ben was doing groups as well, from what I remember of our conversations at SIGCSE. 00:38:02 On code. 00:38:20 JoAnne has two students in her independent study - I know they worked independently on tickets. 00:38:30 And even if the commit is under a single name, the other members can be put into the commit comment. 00:38:56 Ok. That's what I'll have them do. 00:39:19 Will that show up as activity on their GitHub account, though? 00:39:38 If they develop using github as a local repo 00:39:49 Just thinking of the resume fodder for them... 00:40:08 The other thing I've done is to have a team take on a couple of tickets. 00:40:31 I think this will get somewhat better next year when this course is not the only place where they'll have to learn everything. 00:40:51 Yes, I think so. 00:41:06 By the time they get here, they'll be in a better position to code on their own - they will have more of the tools under their belts by this point. 00:41:26 Yes. 00:41:48 I've already introduced Git and Junit freshman year, and we'll keep using them in subsequent courses... 00:42:53 I'm excited that (most of) my freshmen no longer bat an eye about submitting their programs through Git and GitLab... 00:43:19 that's great! 00:43:39 I'm going to have to sign off in a few - anything else to report (or ask heidie)? 00:44:07 One last question: Are others having their students attend any of the OpenMRS meetings? 00:44:08 You've done a great job with git. 00:44:52 I attended my first last week. We had canceled our department meeting, and so I was finally free at the time of the developer forum. 00:45:18 We didn't. I attended several over the summer and I found them overwhelming. I don't think I'd recommend them from what I saw. 00:45:52 One thing that was really interesting was there should have bee google summer of code students there, but I never saw any interaction with them. 00:46:06 I was hoping to, to see how the community dealt with students. 00:46:38 I found it interesting, and I didn't get all of what was happening, but felt like it would be useful for the students to hear... 00:46:55 I just lurked, and figured the students could too... 00:47:15 At this point, I'm not sure they students are even reading the mailing list though... 00:48:18 And, I ignore a lot of what goes by on the list too. 00:48:49 When I start my sabbatical, I'll have to de-lurk. 00:49:05 Ok, that's all I have for now. 00:49:24 One comment about POSSE though... 00:49:47 Thanks for the update - very interesting. 00:50:26 I feel like the group aspect has fallen apart a bit. I'm not saying it's anyone's fault - we've all gotten busy. But now that we have I group, I kind of want to discuss experiences with them. 00:51:01 I think it's a promising part of posse, but underutilized at this point. 00:51:22 YEs, I agree. 00:51:29 I agree - thoughts on how to keep the momentum going? 00:51:37 We need to figure out how to support this aspect better. 00:51:43 Well something to think about. 00:51:50 I've got to go pick up my sone. 00:51:58 ^son 00:52:28 good night! 00:52:35 #endmeeting