00:02:25 #startmeeting 00:02:25 Meeting started Thu May 22 00:02:25 2014 UTC. The chair is heidie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 00:02:25 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 00:02:47 We've got some new folks in the meeting so lets' start with intros 00:02:52 #topic INtros 00:03:35 #info I'm a prof at Western New England University and a member of the OpenFE team that is hosting the POSSE. 00:04:15 #info I am Alex (Razvan Alex Mezei), and I am an Assist. Prof. at Lenoir-Rhyne University, first time attendee at POSSE 00:04:25 #info I am Ben Coleman, at Moravian College in Bethlehem. I attended the POSSE last May. 00:04:34 I'm a prof at Nassau Community College and a OpenFE team member 00:05:23 #info I’m Karl Wurst, Processor at Worcester State University, and a POSSE Alum. 00:05:40 oops I forgot the #info tag - sorry... 00:05:51 :-) 00:07:08 anyone else? 00:07:16 #info I'm Joanmarie ("Joanie") Diggs. I'm an assistive technology specialist and developer employed by Igalia (a Free software consultancy). I am the project lead of the Orca screen reader and I co-coordinate the GNOME Accessibility Team. 00:07:44 kwurst, how long do you have to be at a school to get promoted to processor? :) 00:07:56 :) 00:07:56 * joanie grins 00:08:36 \stupid auto correct... 00:08:43 :-) 00:10:16 \nick JeffWard 00:10:16 mebjc01: Did I miss your intro? I had a brief internet outage. 00:10:40 #info I am Ben Coleman, at Moravian College in Bethlehem. I attended the POSSE last May. 00:10:44 yes, but I reposted. 00:10:51 hey wardj1 and James_McGuffee, we're doing intros. 00:10:53 #info I'm James McGuffee, I'm faculty and administrator in Computer Science, at Northern Kentucky University (greater Cincinnati metro area) 00:11:04 Hey mebjc01 Welcome! 00:11:32 I’m Jeff Ward. Also CS faculty at NKU. 00:13:27 * heidie thinks that James_McGuffee is brave to own up to being an administrator :-) 00:13:56 berkowitz - did I miss your intro? 00:14:00 camm, there? 00:14:35 hmm - perhaps they are both away, should we continue? 00:14:39 Sure. 00:15:02 #topic Project Evaluation Activity 00:15:27 One of the topics for today's IRC is to discuss experiences with the Project Evaluation Activity. 00:15:42 we were hoping to get some feedback from you about your findings for both the foss field trip and evaluation activities in Part B 00:16:07 #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/Project_Evaluation_Activity 00:16:43 did you feel like you were able to learn enough about projects using these tools to help you decided what might be appropriate for your classes? 00:18:02 yes but ... I think I would modify some o fthe importance of the rubric scoring based on my needs of the specific project 00:18:29 How so James_McGuffee ? 00:18:30 those site are great for classes. I plan to use them in my future CS courses. However they are not complete. For example, SAHANA EDEN seems to have outdated info on ohloh.net 00:18:34 this is more true for secondary criteria 00:19:09 alex_rmezei: Yes, Ohloh may not have the most recent information. 00:19:35 i know I mentioned this before, but I really love ohloh.net :-) 00:20:00 alex_rmezei - what do you like about it? 00:20:05 for example, if I wished to use a FOSS and documentation to illustrate collaborative software development to freshmen I would care more ability amount of documentation. I would be less concerned about recent activity indicating on going development 00:20:40 all the metrics given there 00:20:43 James_McGuffee - so how would you go about identifying a project for those needs? 00:20:49 sorry for my poor grammar, my screen is wrapping weirdly and can't see entire sentence at once 00:21:24 * joanie observes that the more one is developing the less one is writing good documentation ;) 00:21:45 hi Patti! can you introduce yourself? 00:21:49 * alex_rmezei :D 00:22:19 Welcome Patti_ 00:22:19 sure 00:22:37 e.g. I would weigh the criteria of "maturity" under viability much more importantly than "openness to contributions" under approachability --- in the scenario I described 00:22:48 HI! I am an Assistant Professor at the University of Puerto Rico 00:23:10 James_McGuffee: Yes, that makes sense. 00:23:22 Patti participated in our POSSE last year and will be joining us again. 00:23:29 so, in summary, for certain projects I might "weight" some aspects of the rubric depending on specific needs/goals . Overall, though, I really like the rubric and structure 00:23:41 Hmm, so perhaps there are variants of the rubric depending on the type of interaction? 00:24:20 And I note that I would still want an active community, even if I was doing documentation. How else would you know if the documentation was helpful and correct? 00:24:22 James_McGuffee - that is a great observation - I'm guessing there might be several scenarios where weighting would be different. 00:26:49 Both of the field trip and project evaluation activities were revised from last year. 00:27:27 Last year, the project evaluation gave ratings and this year we wanted you to come up with the ratings. 00:27:55 What were people's reaction to Mifos as a project? Would you consider using it? 00:28:21 I liked being forced to come up with values - even if some of my choices were "educated guesses" 00:30:34 the one things that struck me as REALLY interesting about MIFOS was that the overwhelming amount of code is in Java but the largest number of user comments on code were the parts written in Perl _ I just kept thinking this will really help strenghten my anti-Perl rants next time I teach comparative progamming languages class 00:30:45 :-) 00:31:54 The scope of mifos seemed a lot to swallow for a project aimed at undergrads. Now, perhaps with a bit of work, I could load it into my brain sufficiently to break out digestible pieces for undergrads. I did think that it was organized well. I’m interested in the experience of veterans in how this works out. How much overhead is involved in getting started? 00:31:54 my rating was different than the ones given in the article. For the activity, I gave 1 point only, since there seemed to be no commits since Oct. 2013. But maybe the metrics were not up-to-date. 00:32:25 alex_rmezei: Mifos? 00:32:29 yes 00:33:25 oops .. they just got 22 commits for May :-) 00:33:40 #JeffWard do you mean as research or in the classroom? 00:33:42 Right, Mifos migrated to Mifos X 00:34:27 JeffWard: Ah, you're experiencing being "productively lost". 00:34:37 I looked in the wrong place. I did not use Mifos X :-| 00:34:41 I mean in the classroom. Is HFOSS usually used in the classroom, or is it more often used in independent studies and small seminars? 00:34:51 I don't expect to understand all of a project that I'm working on. 00:35:07 And I certainly don't expect students to either. This is the joy of working in a community. 00:35:19 kwurst and ben - you've used OpenMRS which I'm guessing is similar size to Mifox - thoughts on wrapping her head around a project that size? 00:35:25 Ah, yes, being PL was one of the goals. Thanks, I had forgotten.:) 00:35:32 :-) 00:35:53 So this past year I started working with research because I had no experience... 00:36:20 JeffWard - people have done seminars, independent studies as well as classroom use 00:36:38 JeffWard: It is a bit umm, scarey? at first to not know everything as we're trained to have all of the answers. But I've found that if Google doesn't have the answer, someone in the community can give direction. 00:36:38 I’m working on wrapping my head around OpenMRS, but haven’t spent a whole lot of time on it yet. 00:37:04 My students did OK in getting enough of the project to be able to try to contribute. 00:37:31 kwurst: Which project? 00:37:37 OpenMRS 00:37:46 * James_McGuffee has master the "L" in "PL" 00:38:08 I had two students do independent study first semester... word got around I have 4 now... they are doing incredible... 00:38:12 I am amazed 00:38:21 Patti_: What did they do? 00:38:52 And this is one compelling aspect to students working in FOSS, they go so far beyond what I could "teach" them. 00:39:04 so, that brings up a somewhat serious question, is there any way to tell the difference between "productively lost" and just plain "lost" 00:39:15 They are working with SIMON... trying to build an open source IDE with voice recognition 00:39:35 Ah, yes. Being "productively" lost means that you have an understanding of how to find the answers to your questions. Well, that you actually know what questions to ask. 00:40:00 Now they have caught the eye of the lead developer... 00:40:01 * joanie is happy to see Patti_ say "incredible" and "amazed". :) 00:40:03 Being just plain lost means you don't know where to start :-) 00:40:23 We tried to get a Google Summer of Code 00:40:36 Thanks JOANIE for the idea! 00:40:52 Thanks Patti_ for not killing me when it got off to a slow start. ;) 00:41:40 The lead developer now is talking to them about doing a plugin for Simon. They are soo excited... 00:41:42 * heidie thinks that joanie has been a much larger help than she could guess! 00:41:46 Now, I see the benefit of having multiple people from the same school. With brilliant colleagues at NKU at the least I know I can go ask them and that's always a strategy so I guess I am never truly lost 00:42:05 Yes! And the folks don't have to be at the same school, although it helps. 00:42:11 I think it's OK to be truely lost 00:42:20 Patti_: How did you get "unlost"? 00:42:41 They got us unlost... 00:43:06 Who is "they"? 00:43:06 I just told them well try another approach and we talked about another possible approach... 00:43:14 The studens? 00:43:16 which is why the current documentation (written and access to others) is so important in the evaluation of the suitability of a FOSS project - got it 00:43:35 Other students heard we were having trouble and wanted to come help... thus the double amount of students... 00:43:46 I also had to let one student leave... 00:44:01 he kept blaming everyone else 00:44:32 Ah, interesting. 00:44:34 I needed to recruit one hacker 00:44:44 He actually came to me... 00:45:34 Because he was interested in working on FOSS? 00:45:52 in HFOSS... 00:46:08 they like working on project that they feel make the world better... 00:46:31 We are building this application for a former mentee of mine... 00:46:46 My student presented it in her class... it attracts people... 00:47:15 Now we are working on another assistive technology project... 00:47:54 * joanie wonders which one 00:47:56 to help the hearing communicate with the hearing impaired... 00:48:06 The first one... 00:48:26 Patti_: Does the project have a name? 00:48:43 Yes, the Kavita Project because it is for Kavita... 00:49:17 The second project does not have a name... 00:49:45 Patti_: aha, so it's a new, created-by-y'all AT project? 00:50:14 Yes... we are extending Simon 00:50:38 trying to help with the dictation... 00:50:45 Ooooh! Nice!! 00:51:16 We (free desktop communities) have crap for dictation support 00:51:38 Besides learning and humanitarianism, how do you typically incentivize student participation? Do most of the students receive course credit? 00:52:03 Money from grants? 00:52:07 Yes,,, they get research credits... 00:52:15 Course credit is a frequent motivator. 00:52:24 I've had students contribute just because they're interested. 00:52:33 yes, most people use this as part of the course requirements 00:52:47 When I was at Trinity College, we had a Bard college student work with us, unpaid, for an entire summer just because he was interested. 00:53:05 how often as part of traditional courses? 00:53:17 JeffWard: That varies. 00:53:53 I have run a senior-level Software Engineering course every year for the past five years where students have been involved in FOSS. 00:54:43 hey all - I don't want to stop this conversation, but I'm looking at the time, does anyone have any logistical questions about next week? 00:54:49 When we come with our laptops next week, is there any software in particular that would be good to have installed in advance? 00:55:14 If you had a variant of Linux on a partition that would be helpful. 00:55:19 And an IRC client. 00:55:21 Git 00:55:23 :-) 00:55:51 would linux on a virtual machine be fine? I have win 8 on my laptop 00:55:56 lorip: Can you get Greg to see if he can get the IRC port(s) unblocked in that room? I’d rather use my IRC client, not a web client... 00:56:24 alex_rmezei: For the most part yes. 00:56:37 was that a problem last year? I don't recall that being an issue... 00:56:45 I've successfully worked with FOSS projects using a virtual machine. The exception is if you're trying to work with the camera. 00:56:51 Sometimes the drivers are not compatible. 00:57:03 lorip: Yes, it was. It’s even in the logs from last year. 00:57:07 Yes, I think it was a problem. 00:57:13 * kwurst looks at last year’s logs… 00:57:14 kwurst - I'll check with him on friday - that for the reminder! 00:57:15 I'll send him an email asking. 00:57:27 Ah, even better, bring it up at the meeting. 00:57:41 just as an FYI, we plan to use the answers people post in activities B.4 & C.4 during the workshop 00:57:49 those are the course planning activities 00:58:19 lorip: It mentions it on the Agenda page. 00:58:22 heidie: do you think it would make sense for people to set up an environment on a thumbdrive rather than a VM? 00:58:26 * heidie notes that it is approaching 9:00 pm EDT. 00:58:34 or are the activities not resource intensive? 00:59:02 joanie: my experiences with thumb drives is that they don't support development in the long term. 00:59:07 They tend to run out of room. 00:59:13 ok 00:59:18 thanks kwurst, I didn't recall that! 00:59:37 A VM would allow folks to set up a project during the workshop in Phila that they could take home and use. 00:59:46 * joanie nods. 00:59:55 lorip: It’s not a big deal if he can’t get it fixed - just a convenience… 00:59:57 fyi: my personal travel laptop is not THAT powerful and really doesn't have the memory to support a partition so a thumbdrive solution would be great - any specifics that could be emailed out - or posted on wiki by this weekend would be great 01:00:19 heidie: NSF-funded uber drives? :P 01:00:20 James_McGuffee: Could you do VirtualBox? 01:00:39 I'll check. I've still got some of the ones we used at Hopper. :-) 01:00:52 joanie: NSF-funded new laptops for everyone! ;-) 01:00:52 they need updating, etc. 01:01:08 kwurst wins :) 01:01:27 and I have a powerful laptop at work but it's VERy large and not very great for air travel 01:02:10 The HFOSS projects we're looking at all run on Linux. 01:02:30 FYI - OpenMRS also runs on windows 01:02:33 So creating a VirtualBox image with an appropriate version of Linux that would work. 01:02:34 Ah, OK. 01:02:54 For instance, I'm working on Fedora. 01:03:28 I just checked out Virtualbox and seems like a reasonable additional HW assignment to install on laptop prior to trip next week 01:03:32 * heidie thinks that adding information about VirtualBox and setting up Linux would be a good addition to foss2serve. 01:03:38 :-) Yes. 01:03:45 * joanie uses Fedora on all her systems so if people have no idea what distro to use.... Maybe Fedora? :) 01:04:11 Right, Fedora is likely a reasonable version. 01:04:26 * joanie looks for a link which may or may not be of use 01:04:29 joanie: Fedora 20? 01:04:35 * joanie looks for a link which may or may not be of use 01:04:36 ;) 01:04:54 heidie: short answer is yes, 20 01:04:57 with a but 01:05:04 ? 01:05:05 I have kubuntu... OK? 01:05:17 Sure, if you've already got a version installed, I wouldn't change it. 01:05:45 I think a *buntu is fine. But for people who haven't decided, at least heidie and I should be ready to help the Fedora folks 01:05:54 Yup. Happily! 01:06:03 heidie: http://copr.fedoraproject.org/coprs/rhughes/f20-gnome-3-12/ 01:06:09 I need to get going... looking forwarding to seeing everyone in Phili next week! 01:06:11 What I would do with the above is mostly forget it 01:06:23 but remember it if anyone needs a more current (upstream) version 01:06:43 ah, thanks. Yes. 01:06:48 bye lorip 01:06:52 The key sentence being 01:06:56 This COPR will be updated until Fedora 21 has been released or until the entropy death of the universe, whichever happens first. 01:06:59 ;) 01:07:28 * heidie ponders "entropy death of the universe" and wonders about the rate of decay 01:07:31 Speaking of Phila, does anyone have any questions about arrangements, etc.? 01:07:31 3.12 shipped and Fedora, for the first time maybe ever, didn't keep up 01:07:38 Oh! 01:08:07 I doubt this will impact anyone 01:08:11 we have to be at hotel by 1:30pm? 01:08:12 Right. 01:08:17 BUT if someone needs a "current" dev environment 01:08:18 ? we just "show up" at hotel, have id, and bring paper copies of receipts to give to ??? to get eventually reimbursed for travel 01:08:21 Yes. Or meet us at 2:00 at Drexel. 01:08:23 F20 ain't it without the copr 01:08:48 Simply show up at the hotel, give them your name and indicate that you're with the Drexel group. 01:08:59 Drexel will pay your hotel directly so you don't have to worry about that. 01:09:08 James_McGuffee - Greg will have forms for you to fill out for reimbursement for travel, etc. 01:09:10 You should save original receipts for all other expenses. 01:09:25 bye 01:09:25 do you need boarding passes 01:09:25 joanie: Ah, got it. 01:09:38 No, just the receipt showing that you paid. 01:09:47 \away 01:10:11 Any other questions about the workshop? 01:10:19 looking forward to seeing you all again... 01:10:41 and meeting new folks 01:10:44 Yes! We've got a really good group and I'm excited to meet everyone face-to-face. 01:10:51 me too, looking forward to meet you all there :) 01:10:55 :-) 01:10:57 Any other questions? 01:11:00 :-) 01:11:17 Thursday is pajama day right? 01:11:17 OK, I'm going to end the meeting. Feel free to hang out and ask questions. 01:11:22 #endmeeting