16:02:04 <geppetto> #startmeeting fpc
16:02:05 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Sep 25 16:02:04 2014 UTC.  The chair is geppetto. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:02:05 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:02:05 <geppetto> #meetingname fpc
16:02:05 <geppetto> #topic Roll Call
16:02:05 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
16:02:14 <geppetto> abadger1999 tibbs|w limburgher Rathann SmootherFr0gZ RemiFedora racor spot: FPC ping
16:02:22 <tibbs|w> Howdy.
16:02:27 <geppetto> #chair tibbs
16:02:27 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto tibbs
16:02:36 <geppetto> #chair tibbs|w
16:02:37 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto tibbs tibbs|w
16:03:09 <geppetto> No idea how to unchair at home tibbs … so you get two chairs, I guess :)
16:03:33 * RemiFedora is here for his latest FPC meeting
16:04:06 <geppetto> #chair RemiFedora
16:04:06 <zodbot> Current chairs: RemiFedora geppetto tibbs tibbs|w
16:04:08 <tibbs|w> Whee.
16:04:18 * nirik is here and wanted to bring up a fesco ticket... can be in open floor or whatever
16:04:40 <geppetto> Yeh, was prob. going to bring that up first
16:07:01 <geppetto> abadger1999 limburgher Rathann SmootherFr0gZ racor spot: FPC ping
16:09:39 <tibbs|w> Hence the fesco ticket....
16:11:28 <geppetto> indeed
16:11:50 <geppetto> #topic FPC is not working: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1346
16:12:22 <tibbs|w> So some of that ticket isn't really fair.  If guidelines stall because the people proposing them disappear, that's not our fault.
16:12:24 <geppetto> Well … we've known for a significant amount of time that we needed more members
16:12:39 <geppetto> Yeh, I feel like there are three problems:
16:12:45 <tibbs|w> If someone proposes something as incredibly horrible as SCLs, what do they expect?
16:13:11 <geppetto> 1. Lack of members (we need at least 3 new people, and currently only have #1 proposed atm.)
16:13:25 <RemiFedora> perhaps, at least, a "no" (not >1 year without answer)
16:14:09 <geppetto> 2. Traditionally FPC members did a huge amount of work to propose policy, and now we mostly vote on other people's policy … but they still expect us to do most of the work.
16:14:39 * nirik nods. I think 2 is a expectation lots of people have...
16:14:49 <nirik> "we need $foo guidelines, please make some for us"
16:14:53 <tibbs|w> Well, initially we were all working in the fields we understood.
16:15:04 <geppetto> 3. Recently had a spate of big things that take a huge amount of work (different from traditional packages). SCLs are the obvious one, but Go is a good contender too.
16:15:13 <tibbs|w> But that can't always be the case, and we can't just go out and become Go programmers.
16:15:47 <nirik> right, meaning more reliance on area knowledge folks... which might not have been the expectation
16:16:07 <geppetto> For instance if Go could just fix their "everything is compiled static, gg" … it would be 1000x easier to approve it as just another language.
16:19:09 <geppetto> One thing that sticks out from the ticket is that people are bringing up fedora.next and WGs/etc. … but my opinion, and it seemed to be shared by others here, was that this was expected … we're mainly doing the policy for the main/core/whatever … if people want coprs or outer layers of the onion with relaxed guidlines … whatever.
16:19:47 <nirik> right. I was going to ask if there was any desire for the FPC to handle guidelines for non main fedora collection...
16:19:55 <nirik> ie, playground repo, etc.
16:20:10 <geppetto> Just that when you install Fedora, the things you get access to by default should all stick to some decent set of guidelines
16:20:58 <geppetto> My guess is that those would be better with another group … obviously some members could be in both, but no need to overload FPC
16:21:23 <nirik> currently there's no plan/approval for different products to use different collections of packages (and I think personally it would be a bad idea)
16:21:41 <geppetto> Although I would say that it's probably easier on everyone if they don't just randomly change policy from Fedora … but, meh
16:23:06 <geppetto> nirik: yeh, I wasn't even thinking of that … more like if, post install, you add some extra repo. which is "workstation extras" … then I don't think there's any objection to that repo. using whatever policy they feel like.
16:23:28 <nirik> sure, or the playground repo...
16:23:31 <geppetto> right
16:23:38 <geppetto> or random coprs, whatever
16:23:42 <nirik> which makes some sense to have more relaxed guidelines.
16:23:46 * nirik nods.
16:23:50 <geppetto> as long as it's not on by default … then do whatever as long as it passes legal
16:24:40 <tibbs|w> So, what was the name of that big directory of crap back in the early RHL days?  People just dumped packages there and it turned into a huge mess.
16:24:47 <nirik> so, from FPC standpoint, adding more active members + documenting more expectations for new guidelines would help a lot? or is there more that could be done? or ?
16:24:58 <nirik> tibbs|w: ftp contrib
16:25:05 <nirik> it was horrible
16:25:11 <tibbs|w> That's why I disagree with the concept of a playground repo.
16:26:02 <geppetto> tibbs|w: Yeh, I think it's likely to end badly … but I'm tired of telling people not to do things that are stupid
16:26:11 <tibbs|w> Not our call anyway.
16:26:24 <nirik> tibbs|w: well, it might be somewhat better... everything is at least built in mock, etc.
16:26:36 <nirik> some of that contrib stuff didn't even build
16:26:46 <geppetto> As long as they don't break default Fedora, they can go experiment with having as little policy as they want
16:27:05 <nirik> it's somewhat self correcting. If it's horrible people will stop using it.
16:27:09 <tibbs|w> Really the fesco ticket just exposes a fundamental rift.
16:27:23 <tibbs|w> We're responsible in some way for enforcing some sense of sanity in the distribution.
16:27:49 <tibbs|w> People who want to do things we think are insane are going to see us as an obstruction.
16:28:03 <geppetto> sure
16:28:05 * nirik notes that none of the proposals in the ticket are from fesco folks, FWIW
16:28:10 <tibbs|w> Hence "FPC is not working" when it actually is working.
16:28:34 <geppetto> well, that's for FESCO to decide … maybe we are all too old and objectionable for 2014
16:28:40 * geppetto shrugs
16:28:53 <tibbs|w> Given the recent changes in bundling stuff, I'd say not.
16:29:10 <nirik> so, where are the go guidelines? I know scls are kinda just not going anywhere with no champions?
16:29:27 <nirik> those seem to be the two 'hot button' items.
16:29:38 <geppetto> nirik:  https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/382
16:30:20 <tibbs|w> Really, to me, the lack of members should be the real complaint about FPC, and that's just a cascade effect from one person saying "I really don't have the time" and others realizing they have the same problem.
16:30:51 <nirik> geppetto: thanks. will read up
16:31:03 <tibbs|w> We will work around it. Just need to find two more people who want to work on stuff.
16:31:43 <geppetto> Well we've almost approved one new person … so if we get just one more then we'd have had quorum today
16:31:53 <geppetto> And I've spoken to at least one other person who might apply.
16:32:14 * nirik has considered applying, but I am already so busy. ;(
16:32:26 * geppetto nods
16:34:29 <nirik> anyhow, thanks for the discussion on this, feel free to add any further thoughts to the fesco ticket.
16:34:36 <geppetto> nirik: Anything more you wanted to talk about?
16:34:40 * geppetto nods … ok
16:34:45 <geppetto> #topic Open Floor
16:35:15 <geppetto> Anyone have anything else?
16:35:32 <tibbs|w> Is there nothing we can vote on?
16:35:41 <geppetto> with 3 of us?
16:36:07 <tibbs|w> People can always vote in the tickets....
16:36:07 <geppetto> I guess we could look at https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/455
16:36:17 <geppetto> #topic #455 	Policy for embedding private copies of valgrind.h
16:37:19 <geppetto> I guess this is "everyone should add Provides: bundled(valgrind.h)"
16:37:25 <geppetto> Or everyone should stop bundling
16:37:28 <tibbs|w> I think most of us would prefer that the header be unbundled.  This is actually a textbook case of why you don't bundle.
16:37:35 <geppetto> yeh
16:37:37 <tibbs|w> But I don't know how feasible that is in general.
16:37:43 <geppetto> I'll get the FPC police force out :)
16:39:18 <geppetto> #action No packages should be bundling valgrind.h, FPC approves bundling requests (exactly so things like this don't happen) and hasn't approved any for valgrind.h.
16:39:45 <tibbs|w> I haven't read the entire devel thread, but for me this hinges on whether there's any good reason to choose bundling over just including the devel package.
16:39:57 <tibbs|w> Well, s/inclucing/requiring/.
16:40:02 <tibbs|w> Or however you spell it.
16:41:11 <geppetto> #action Open BZs against the packages. If bundling is requested/approved, then the packages should have "Provides: bundled(valgrind.h)"
16:41:26 <geppetto> I'll update the ticket with that, after the meeting.
16:42:26 <geppetto> #topic #453     Changes/SystemdSysusers updates for Packaging:UsersAndGroups
16:42:36 <geppetto> tibbs|w: It looks like you didn't vote on this
16:42:43 <geppetto> And a +1 would get it approved
16:43:22 <geppetto> Note that the proposal we voted on is the one in the comment
16:43:39 <geppetto> not the main one in the ticket
16:50:23 <geppetto> tibbs: You get called away?
16:50:44 <geppetto> tibbs|w: Want me to leave it so you can vote in the ticket?
16:51:09 <tibbs|w> Sorry, folks; someone was at the door.
16:51:17 <geppetto> no problem
16:52:16 <tibbs|w> Hmm, I thought I voted on that.  Let me +1 in the ticket.
16:52:37 <geppetto> nevermind … yeh you did
16:52:44 <geppetto> just the summary was wrong
16:53:06 <geppetto> was you, me, remi and rathann
16:53:39 <geppetto> Ahh, I see … got confused between tiibs and tiibs|w … *sigh*
16:53:46 <geppetto> sorry
16:53:59 <geppetto> #topic Open Floor
16:55:05 <geppetto> Anything else before I close?
16:56:16 <tibbs|w> I wonder what is left before our new member can start.
16:59:43 <geppetto> I'm not sure
16:59:47 <geppetto> I guess rathann knows?
17:00:04 <geppetto> I think almost everyone has voted now
17:03:13 <tibbs|w> I think with new members we'll all feel kind of revitalized.
17:03:44 <geppetto> You make it sounds like underworld ;)
17:04:03 <geppetto> Pass around the newbie and we'll all feast on his lifeforce ;)
17:04:20 <tibbs|w> I just wish I had time to help running meetings.  Since we moved from Wednesdays (when I worked from home) to Thursdays (when I'm alone in the office) I can't commit to it.
17:04:46 <geppetto> Well, given how many people are here … we can certainly move it back if that helps everyone
17:06:15 <tibbs|w> I guess once we get new members we can have another round of scheduling.
17:09:52 * geppetto nods
17:10:06 <geppetto> Ok, thanks for turning up tibbs and RemiFedora
17:10:29 <geppetto> nirik: Also, thanks for coming and talking about the FESCO ticket
17:10:44 <nirik> no problem.
17:10:52 <nirik> I didn't want to it just be a big surprise.
17:11:06 <geppetto> nirik: I'll probably be around when you discuss it in FESCO, so feel free to ping me if you need to.
17:11:25 * geppetto nods … I'd seen it but hadn't worked up the willpower to comment in the ticket, yet.
17:12:01 <geppetto> Mainly trying not to shout in public, or say "fine, let there be choas. Enjoy. gg"
17:12:02 <nirik> can do
17:12:55 <geppetto> Ok, closing now.
17:12:57 <geppetto> #endmeeting