16:05:03 <geppetto> #startmeeting fpc
16:05:03 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jul  1 16:05:03 2021 UTC.
16:05:03 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
16:05:03 <zodbot> The chair is geppetto. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:05:03 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:05:03 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
16:05:03 <geppetto> #meetingname fpc
16:05:03 <geppetto> #topic Roll Call
16:05:03 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
16:05:13 <mhroncok> .hello churchyard
16:05:14 <zodbot> mhroncok: churchyard 'Miro Hrončok' <mhroncok@redhat.com>
16:05:16 <geppetto> #chair Eighth_Doctor
16:05:16 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor geppetto
16:05:18 <geppetto> #chair decathorpe
16:05:18 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor decathorpe geppetto
16:05:20 <geppetto> #chair mhroncok
16:05:20 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor decathorpe geppetto mhroncok
16:05:22 <geppetto> #chair tibbs
16:05:22 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor decathorpe geppetto mhroncok tibbs
16:05:45 <Eighth_Doctor> .hello ngompa
16:05:46 <zodbot> Eighth_Doctor: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
16:05:54 <decathorpe> .hello2
16:05:54 <geppetto> nirik++
16:05:54 <zodbot> decathorpe: decathorpe 'Fabio Valentini' <decathorpe@gmail.com>
16:05:57 <zodbot> geppetto: Karma for kevin changed to 40 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
16:06:11 <tibbs> Busy day for me; my wife is coming back from being in Norway for a month.
16:06:18 <geppetto> wow
16:06:37 <Eighth_Doctor> ooh
16:06:38 <carlwgeorge> .hello carlwgeorge
16:06:39 <zodbot> carlwgeorge: carlwgeorge 'Carl George' <carl@redhat.com>
16:06:44 <geppetto> #chair carlwgeorge
16:06:45 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor carlwgeorge decathorpe geppetto mhroncok tibbs
16:06:53 <geppetto> tibbs: yeh for video chat, I guess
16:07:05 <mhroncok> :)
16:10:18 <geppetto> I see now my schedule email didn't make it to the list
16:10:29 <geppetto> #topic Schedule
16:10:51 <geppetto> Schedule is mostly the same as the last meeting: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/packaging@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/2WUXCXEWN46FRVRNH3ZYAOXZQE7RW7DD/
16:11:04 <geppetto> Except the versioning draft is back …
16:11:06 <decathorpe> geppetto: well at least I got an email yesterday
16:11:26 <geppetto> https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/blob/6a54922d64f8b1fe92a6522c323d0ca25e660ba3/f/guidelines/modules/ROOT/pages/Versioning.adoc
16:12:00 <geppetto> #topic  #1073 Use tilde and caret in version field
16:12:06 <geppetto> .fpc 1073
16:12:11 <zodbot> geppetto: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
16:12:22 <geppetto> #link https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1073
16:12:45 <tibbs> It would be nice to finally see this done.
16:12:45 <geppetto> decathorpe: from me?
16:13:05 <Eighth_Doctor> it's not perfect, but I'm good with releasing it now and iterating
16:13:10 <geppetto> tibbs: Yeh, as someone said … I feel like we should just approve it and do any cleanups after
16:13:31 <mhroncok> geppetto: from you, https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/BY3XDPRA3KVKTXVSUZAN6QJOTGAPSAQ6/
16:13:38 <decathorpe> geppetto: yes. I got "Schedule for Thursday's FPC Meeting (2021-07-01 16:00 UTC)" yesterday, from you
16:14:33 <decathorpe> yesterday was still June ;)
16:14:49 <geppetto> Ahh, that's for devel@
16:14:58 <geppetto> Just didn't make it to the packaging list
16:15:02 <geppetto> weird
16:15:42 <decathorpe> anyway,I agree with Neal, the draft is fine and we can postpone further bikeshedding until later
16:15:44 <mhroncok> weird indeed
16:15:46 <tibbs> I don't think it needs all that much in the way of cleanup, really.  There might be some weirdness left in there from the worst parts of the original drafts I made but I think it all got cleaned up pretty well.
16:15:55 <mhroncok> yep
16:16:06 <carlwgeorge> +1 from me on 1073
16:16:18 <carlwgeorge> looking forward to using it
16:16:20 <geppetto> yeh, there was some discussion of using '+' instead of '.' as the snapshot seperator
16:16:22 <geppetto> but eh
16:16:32 <geppetto> +1
16:16:53 <decathorpe> +1 as well, I think I haven't voted on ticket yet
16:16:56 <geppetto> Also I tried to find a way to get a diff from the current version doc. … but gave up
16:16:59 <geppetto> anyone know how?
16:17:03 <Eighth_Doctor> +1
16:17:04 <tibbs> I wonder if a test package has been plumbed all the way through the system yet.
16:17:12 <Eighth_Doctor> tibbs: I've done one already
16:17:17 <Eighth_Doctor> and so has zbyszek
16:17:33 <tibbs> OK, good.
16:18:05 <tibbs> I was pretty sure I tested it long ago but you never know what could have broken in the interim.
16:18:32 <mhroncok> I've done some of those
16:18:40 <mhroncok> there was one recently...
16:18:43 <mhroncok> by zbyszek
16:19:09 <mhroncok> https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2021-89b774b0c4
16:19:20 <mhroncok> https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=1776838
16:20:15 <Eighth_Doctor> the noggin package does an earlier version of this
16:20:32 <Eighth_Doctor> https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=1760096
16:20:44 <mhroncok> also https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=1690195
16:20:48 <mhroncok> it works :)
16:21:28 <tibbs> I was +1 in the ticket, for the record.
16:21:39 <mhroncok> I was +1 in the ticket as well
16:21:40 <geppetto> That's 5 here
16:21:49 <geppetto> Ok, 6
16:21:50 <Eighth_Doctor> I was +1 in the ticket as well
16:22:01 <geppetto> Eighth_Doctor: stop trying to double vote ;)
16:22:09 <geppetto> #action Use tilde and caret in version field (+1:6, 0:0, -1:0)
16:22:09 <Eighth_Doctor> lol
16:22:15 <Eighth_Doctor> I'll merge the PR :)
16:22:22 <geppetto> #topic Open Floor
16:22:28 <mhroncok> I ahve 2 things
16:22:31 <mhroncok> *have
16:22:39 <geppetto> Cool, go ahead
16:22:50 <mhroncok> cstratak is away from computr now but he asked me to bring this up ...
16:22:52 <mhroncok> #link https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1071
16:23:33 <mhroncok> apparenttly it is 3 weeks old and no review from us
16:23:40 <tibbs> Damn long lines.
16:23:40 <mhroncok> I am guilty as well
16:23:46 <geppetto> Here is the diff: https://pagure.io/fork/cstratak/packaging-committee/c/f286b4a1dad64065bcc3ca0e1bfb516753df4f88
16:24:24 <tibbs> I had intended to comment but it looks like I never got around to it.
16:24:49 <tibbs> It's weird that it patches "binaries" to "binaries or libraries".
16:25:25 <mhroncok> well the meaning of "binaries" might include "libraries" or it might be "executables" in /usr/bin
16:25:42 <tibbs> It means both.
16:26:03 <tibbs> binaries = executables + libraries, at least that's the language we've always used in the guidelines.
16:26:17 <tibbs> It also patches "binary" to "object" later.
16:26:45 <tibbs> Then again, I can't promise our terminology is completely consistent but I had at least tried to make it so.
16:27:01 * geppetto nods
16:27:55 <mhroncok> anyway, we don't have to review this here
16:28:11 <mhroncok> I just wanted to raise awareness
16:29:05 * geppetto nods
16:29:11 <tibbs> I guess it would be easier to deal with if it didn't have those sort-of-unrelated changes in there.
16:29:11 <geppetto> I can tag it for meetings
16:30:08 <tibbs> The meat of the change is saying we run check-rpaths by default, though it seems prudent to say that the builds will actually fail because of that.
16:31:48 <geppetto> mhroncok: you said you had a second thing?
16:31:52 <tibbs> The other important bits include instructions for disabling the rpath check, and a trick to turn off rpaths in cmake.
16:32:09 <mhroncok> geppetto: yes, but i was waiting for thsi topic to end here :)
16:33:31 <mhroncok> the other thing: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/PythonPackagingGuidelines202x was approved by fesco. the relevant guidelines change is in https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1072 -- there is one more thing to yet be added but most of it is there. I'd appreciate your feedback s well
16:35:02 <geppetto> Is there a way to get all 22 commits?
16:35:15 <mhroncok> geppetto: overall diff?
16:35:21 <tibbs> Just click "files changed"?
16:35:31 <geppetto> ahh
16:35:43 <mhroncok> geppetto: also, the diff does not make much sense
16:35:51 <mhroncok> it's a complete rewrtie, see http://100.26.217.43/packaging-committee-pr1072/packaging-guidelines/Python/
16:36:00 <decathorpe> (or append ".patch" to the PR URL)
16:36:19 * geppetto nods
16:36:27 <tibbs> Some chunks of the diff are useful, but the main guidelines page is basically all diff.
16:36:49 <mhroncok> relevant human-created diff is also linked from the change proposal: https://hackmd.io/@python-maint/rJmQQc4DP
16:37:08 <geppetto> py2 stuff is gone now … everything different ;)
16:37:17 <tibbs> Progress!
16:37:22 <geppetto> My useful summary changelog ;)
16:38:52 <geppetto> I don't really like the pypi bit
16:39:12 <mhroncok> geppetto: Eighth_Doctor doesn't like it either
16:39:14 <geppetto> but thats probably me bein old and grumpy more than anything else
16:39:24 <Eighth_Doctor> nah, I'm not a fan either
16:39:33 <mhroncok> the discussion exists on the Python mailing list
16:40:00 <mhroncok> geppetto: summarized in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/PythonPackagingGuidelines202x#Feedback
16:40:33 <geppetto> So I guess my main object is on it being a MUST not a SHOULD
16:41:21 <geppetto> but, again, I'm not going to -1 it for that.
16:41:36 <geppetto> Anyway … I guess we should read this more and talk about it next week?
16:41:44 <geppetto> Anything else for this week?
16:42:04 <mhroncok> geppetto: also relevant https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/5EWXANYPY5A3BYGQP3KQRGUMGZ45SRKR/
16:42:20 <mhroncok> I can invite Petr for the next meeting if you want to discuss parts of this with hm
16:42:22 <mhroncok> *him
16:42:41 <mhroncok> (that's it from me for this week)
16:44:16 * geppetto nods
16:44:32 <geppetto> eh, I can see the gain for petr … I'm less sure for all packagers
16:44:56 <geppetto> Having pip work better is nice, but…
16:45:00 <geppetto> anyway
16:45:15 <decathorpe> well, nobody is going to apply the new guidelines retroactively
16:46:14 <Eighth_Doctor> geppetto: if it was SHOULD, I'd be happier
16:46:15 <Eighth_Doctor> but it's MUST
16:46:37 <geppetto> indeed
16:46:47 <mhroncok> The command pip install PROJECTNAME MUST install the same package (possibly in a different version), install nothing, or fail with a reasonable error message.
16:46:52 <mhroncok> this is the entire rule
16:46:57 <mhroncok> Every Python package in Fedora SHOULD also be available on the Python Package Index (PyPI).
16:47:01 <mhroncok> this is still should
16:47:23 <carlwgeorge> that sounds reasonable to me
16:47:57 <mhroncok> note that it does not make publishing on pypi mandatory
16:48:25 <tibbs> Just that you can't package something which has the same name as something on pypi but is actually something different.
16:48:29 <tibbs> I think that's a reasonable goal.
16:49:35 <mhroncok> tibbs: it can even have the same name (as in package name, or xommand name)
16:49:38 * decathorpe grumbles about Python packages having 4 different names depending on context
16:49:57 <mhroncok> tibbs: it just musn't claim itself to be a Python package named that way in the Python-specific metadata
16:50:09 <mhroncok> decathorpe: that is the thing I hate too
16:50:58 <mhroncok> decathorpe: the new guidelines explicitly say the packager SHOULD try to avoid this, but when packaging existing upstream projects, it is usually late for that
16:51:14 <mhroncok> s/xommand/command/
16:52:10 * geppetto nods
16:52:37 <geppetto> Ok, unless anyone has anything else I'll close 5 minutes early
16:54:31 <tibbs> Thanks, folks.
16:54:36 <mhroncok> bye
16:55:02 <geppetto> #endmeeting