17:00:54 <geppetto> #startmeeting fpc
17:00:54 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jan 26 17:00:54 2023 UTC.
17:00:54 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:00:54 <zodbot> The chair is geppetto. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
17:00:54 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:54 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
17:00:54 <geppetto> #meetingname fpc
17:00:54 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
17:00:54 <geppetto> #topic Roll Call
17:01:05 <GwynCieslasheher> here
17:01:07 <Eighth_Doctor> .hello ngompa
17:01:08 <zodbot> Eighth_Doctor: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
17:01:49 <geppetto> #chair Eighth_Doctor
17:01:49 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor geppetto
17:02:26 <decathorpe> hello o/
17:03:30 <geppetto> #chair decathorpe
17:03:30 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor decathorpe geppetto
17:03:45 <carlwgeorge> .hi
17:03:46 <zodbot> carlwgeorge: carlwgeorge 'Carl George' <carl@redhat.com>
17:04:01 <GwynCieslasheher> .hi
17:04:02 <zodbot> GwynCieslasheher: Sorry, but user 'GwynCieslasheher' does not exist
17:04:20 <GwynCieslasheher> Dang. I keep thinking I do.
17:04:40 <decathorpe> .hello limb
17:04:40 <Eighth_Doctor> you exist to me ;)
17:04:40 <zodbot> decathorpe: limb 'Gwyn Ciesla' <gwync@protonmail.com>
17:04:40 <GwynCieslasheher> Aw! 😊
17:04:47 <decathorpe> that did the trick. :)
17:04:48 <mhroncok> .hello churchyard
17:04:49 <zodbot> mhroncok: churchyard 'Miro Hrončok' <mhroncok@redhat.com>
17:04:49 <GwynCieslasheher> Ahhhh
17:04:49 <Eighth_Doctor> your IRC nick is probably not known to zodbot
17:05:12 <GwynCieslasheher> So it doesn't really grok Matrix?
17:05:16 <Eighth_Doctor> I wonder if hi works for me
17:05:17 <Eighth_Doctor> .hi
17:05:18 <zodbot> Eighth_Doctor: Sorry, but user 'Eighth_Doctor' does not exist
17:05:24 <Eighth_Doctor> meep
17:05:24 <geppetto> #chair GwynCieslasheher
17:05:24 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor GwynCieslasheher decathorpe geppetto
17:05:30 <geppetto> #chair mhroncok
17:05:30 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor GwynCieslasheher decathorpe geppetto mhroncok
17:05:43 <GwynCieslasheher> We should take Turing tests just to be safe,
17:05:46 <geppetto> GwynCieslasheher: That seems like an evergreen statement
17:05:59 <GwynCieslasheher> s/,/./
17:06:30 <GwynCieslasheher> How does that make you feel about We should take Turing tests just to be safe.?
17:06:52 * decathorpe wonders how long it will take until some ChatGPT based spam bots will infest IRC / Matrix ...
17:07:00 <geppetto> Ha … I meant "So it doesn't really grok Matrix?" is evergreen
17:07:08 <GwynCieslasheher> OIC
17:07:39 <GwynCieslasheher> Eventually we'll move off IRC entirely and it'll get ported to Matrix, I assume....
17:07:48 <geppetto> But also fair to say chat gpt could replace fpc ;)
17:08:22 <GwynCieslasheher> Hmm. pyp2gpt2rpm?
17:08:23 <Eighth_Doctor> I'm pretty sure such chatbots are coming
17:09:21 <mhroncok> has naybody asked gpt to create a spec file:
17:09:23 <mhroncok> ?
17:09:27 <mhroncok> *anybody
17:09:31 <mhroncok> omg, sticky fingers
17:09:49 <geppetto> not that I know of
17:09:56 <Eighth_Doctor> mmmm
17:10:20 <GwynCieslasheher> It'll probably rm -rf %{buildroot} at the start of %install lol
17:10:27 <GwynCieslasheher> So 2007
17:10:38 <geppetto> Probably better asking that thing that github/MS did.
17:10:43 <Eighth_Doctor> that wasn't even fixed upstream until a few years ago
17:10:58 <GwynCieslasheher> geppetto: $_DEITY yes
17:12:30 <geppetto> Anyway....
17:12:35 <geppetto> #topic Schedule
17:12:40 <geppetto> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/packaging@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/IVW5GYWJNELJVRA2Q4CXDGT24YIVIWEV/
17:13:13 <geppetto> So, nothing changed in the last couple of weeks … but I don't think we've had a real meeting (5+ ppl) since the new year
17:13:26 <geppetto> So is there anything anyone wants to talk about?
17:13:40 <Eighth_Doctor> I noticed that we have D packaging guidelines now
17:13:42 <Eighth_Doctor> and it mandates LDC
17:13:46 <Eighth_Doctor> but we've had GDC in Fedora for several years now
17:14:20 <decathorpe> Wasn't there some problem with one of these not supporting all architectures?
17:14:22 <geppetto> I know what some of those letters mean
17:14:35 <Eighth_Doctor> LDC doesn't support some of our arches
17:14:52 <Eighth_Doctor> but more importantly, LDC doesn't support dylibs properly or any hardening flags
17:14:56 <decathorpe> Oh. so it's basically backwards from what we want?
17:15:00 <Eighth_Doctor> yes
17:15:09 <decathorpe> beautiful
17:15:10 <Eighth_Doctor> yup
17:15:31 <Eighth_Doctor> ldc = LLVM D Compiler, gdc = GNU D compiler
17:15:42 <Eighth_Doctor> Debian has used gdc for years before it was fully upstreamed because of this
17:16:01 <Eighth_Doctor> we used ldc because gdc was out of tree until a few years ago, when it finally got upstreamed
17:16:40 <decathorpe> and then there's the "official" D compiler, which nobody wants to use :D
17:16:45 <geppetto> So do we just want to update the docs to say "use gdc"?
17:17:07 <Eighth_Doctor> yeah
17:17:14 <Eighth_Doctor> otherwise people have to do stuff like this: https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/appstream-generator/blob/8acf36b1d2fe172666c3d834382aa0f6c3c8b85e/f/appstream-generator.spec#_78-79
17:17:21 <Eighth_Doctor> otherwise compilation straight up fails out of the box
17:17:26 <geppetto> #action Eighth_Doctor will update docs on D packaging
17:17:33 <Eighth_Doctor> sure
17:17:36 <geppetto> :)
17:17:46 <decathorpe> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
17:18:10 <Eighth_Doctor> it probably means we get to make the toolchain flag work for D along side C/C++ :D
17:18:10 <mhroncok> (Sorry, I need to leave.)
17:18:10 <mhroncok> will read the logs
17:18:23 <Eighth_Doctor> tstellar is going hate me for this :P
17:19:00 <geppetto> mhroncok: no problem, hope everything is ok.
17:19:49 <geppetto> #topic Open Floor
17:19:52 <geppetto> Anything else?
17:20:22 <carlwgeorge> I'd be interested in getting others to weigh in on https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1244
17:22:40 <mhroncok> I'm alright, everything is fine. just joined this meetign without realizing I need to leave so soon to pick my wife at the train station as i promised :) bye folks
17:23:22 <geppetto> If it's small and mostly just works, ship it … if not put it in a separate sub-package … I think not shipping it at all is pretty poor, but maybe there are exceptions
17:24:37 <carlwgeorge> the problem with "just works" is that while it works it typically doesn't follow the bundling guidelines
17:25:25 <decathorpe> this, and I'm also wondering how many useless build failures could be avoided by not building docs ...
17:25:28 <geppetto> I'm much more willing to let that slide for docs … but, eh
17:26:46 <carlwgeorge> decathorpe: indeed
17:26:50 <Eighth_Doctor> I used to work in an environment where I very much appreciated having packaged docs
17:27:10 <Eighth_Doctor> so I don't really want to discourage building and packaging those
17:27:14 <carlwgeorge> Eighth_Doctor: did that environment actually use fedora, or rhel
17:27:24 <Eighth_Doctor> but leave that to the packager's discretion
17:27:31 <Eighth_Doctor> carlwgeorge: we used Fedora
17:27:42 <Eighth_Doctor> precisely because RHEL was pretty bad for airgapped development
17:27:50 <Eighth_Doctor> due to so much missing documentation
17:28:30 <carlwgeorge> you'll have to tell me more about that sometime
17:28:39 <Eighth_Doctor> production environments were RHEL, but all the dev environments were Fedora for this reason
17:28:59 <Eighth_Doctor> it's also why Windows still has a snapshot of the entirety of MSDN available for download and offline viewing in Visual Studio :)
17:29:23 <carlwgeorge> I'm ok with packager discretion on this, but I'd be opposed to making it a SHOULD
17:29:28 <Eighth_Doctor> carlwgeorge: sure, someday :)
17:29:49 <Eighth_Doctor> currently we have no opinion officially on building docs
17:29:58 <Eighth_Doctor> I'm fine with that, as long as we document how docs should be packaged
17:30:24 <Eighth_Doctor> but if we establish an opinion, I would go with SHOULD IF POSSIBLE
17:30:34 <GwynCieslasheher> Seconded.
17:30:39 <geppetto> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
17:30:50 <carlwgeorge> and this pr should add a note that it's still necessary to get the bundling correct
17:30:50 <geppetto> Eighth_Doctor: That wording seems fine to me
17:31:04 <Eighth_Doctor> +1
17:31:18 <geppetto> I would rather have docs with bad bundling than skipped docs.
17:31:30 <carlwgeorge> lots of things are possible, but take a long time
17:31:31 <Eighth_Doctor> yeah, bad bundling at least can be fixed easily enough
17:31:56 <carlwgeorge> the recent thread didn't seem to come to the same conclusion
17:32:09 <carlwgeorge> the one linked in the pr comments
17:32:45 <carlwgeorge> I would strongly prefer MAY over SHOULD IF POSSIBLE
17:32:46 <Eighth_Doctor> well, that was an epel thread right?
17:32:47 <Eighth_Doctor> EPEL makes building docs a pain
17:32:48 <Eighth_Doctor> because RHEL makes it hard
17:33:10 <GwynCieslasheher> s/docs/many things/
17:33:10 * Eighth_Doctor shrugs
17:33:34 <carlwgeorge> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/packaging@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/LLUAURXZVADATHK65HBPPBHKF4EM4UC3/
17:33:53 <carlwgeorge> it was on the packaging list, not epel-devel
17:35:14 <carlwgeorge> I would encourage anyone who thinks this is easy to take a stab at miro's suggested solution from the thread
17:36:20 <carlwgeorge> i.e. a public domain sphinx theme that does not bundle any javascript that packagers can switch packaged docs to
17:37:39 <Eighth_Doctor> it'd be easier to make a provides generator
17:37:45 <Eighth_Doctor> which is what we should actually do
17:38:16 <Eighth_Doctor> JS isn't bad, and it's perfectly fine as long as we know what's in there
17:39:09 * geppetto takes one step backwards
17:39:21 <Eighth_Doctor> well, for a website
17:39:25 <Eighth_Doctor> nodejs is still evil
17:40:34 <carlwgeorge> do we have an fpc recommendation to add to the pr yet, or do we want to think on it longer?
17:41:02 <carlwgeorge> to be clear I'm not opposed to having a page specific to packaging docs, but as is this pr is lacking in several ways
17:41:06 <geppetto> If you think you can summarize the above, feel free to make a comment for the fpc
17:41:23 <carlwgeorge> I can do that
17:41:38 * geppetto nods
17:41:45 <geppetto> Sounds good … anything else?
17:41:56 <carlwgeorge> but eventually we probably should provide guidance on SHOULD, MAY, etc
17:42:15 <Eighth_Doctor> I don't think we've ever defined those words :D
17:42:26 <carlwgeorge> there's an rfc that does
17:42:37 <Eighth_Doctor> yeah but we didn't say we follow that :P
17:43:15 <carlwgeorge> I could have sworn we did, will have to look
17:46:15 <Eighth_Doctor> #action carlwgeorge to find out how we officially define MUST, SHOULD, MAY, etc. and document it
17:47:34 <geppetto> lol
17:48:02 <geppetto> I wouldn't be shocked if everyone just assumed it was defined the same way as in RFCs, but never bothered to write that down anywhere
17:48:13 <carlwgeorge> entirely possible
17:48:13 <GwynCieslasheher> Be careful. English is a crap language. American English doubly so.
17:48:26 <GwynCieslasheher> YEah
17:48:34 <GwynCieslasheher> * Yeah
17:49:02 <geppetto> Ok, I'll let ya'll have 10 minutes back
17:49:11 <geppetto> See you next week.
17:49:30 <GwynCieslasheher> Toodaloo!
17:49:51 <carlwgeorge> later yall
17:49:58 <decathorpe> see you next week :)
17:51:23 <geppetto> #endmeeting