2024-02-22 17:00:58 <@james:fedora.im> !startmeeting fpc

2024-02-22 17:00:59 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2024-02-22 17:00:58 UTC
2024-02-22 17:00:59 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'fpc'
2024-02-22 17:01:04 <@james:fedora.im> !topic Roll Call

2024-02-22 17:01:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2024-02-22 17:01:28 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2024-02-22 17:01:38 <@limb:fedora.im> !hi
2024-02-22 17:01:39 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Gwyn Ciesla (limb) - she / her / hers
2024-02-22 17:01:49 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I think I'm here.
2024-02-22 17:02:09 <@james:fedora.im> Hey tibbs!
2024-02-22 17:02:11 <@limb:fedora.im> You seem like it but I don't have the spoons to conduct a Turing test this morning.
2024-02-22 17:02:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I _believe_ I'm here
2024-02-22 17:03:03 <@salimma:fedora.im> !hi
2024-02-22 17:03:04 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
2024-02-22 17:03:11 <@salimma:fedora.im> wow, lots of people here today
2024-02-22 17:03:39 <@limb:fedora.im> My kids argue that I'm a semi-sophisticated bot.
2024-02-22 17:07:50 <@james:fedora.im> So ... four of us?
2024-02-22 17:07:56 <@james:fedora.im> !topic Open Floor
2024-02-22 17:09:36 <@limb:fedora.im> 🤷‍♀️
2024-02-22 17:09:37 <@james:fedora.im> Anyone know anything about fortran?
2024-02-22 17:09:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> oof
2024-02-22 17:09:53 <@salimma:fedora.im> I've used f90 in the past... why? :)
2024-02-22 17:09:53 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> not really, no
2024-02-22 17:10:01 <@limb:fedora.im> I maintain NumPy.
2024-02-22 17:10:03 <@limb:fedora.im> So...no.
2024-02-22 17:10:10 <@james:fedora.im> https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1334
2024-02-22 17:10:59 <@james:fedora.im> I think that should be simple ... maybe just reply with "Please open a PR and we'll probably just merge it"?
2024-02-22 17:11:14 <@salimma:fedora.im> if FPC has no expertise sounds like... a PR to update the guideline would be welcome but those people working on it should address the concerns themselves?
2024-02-22 17:11:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah, practically speaking that's pretty much all we can ask for
2024-02-22 17:11:27 <@salimma:fedora.im> they seem to have open questions there
2024-02-22 17:11:50 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I have to admit I don't understand what is meant by "an equivalent macro for the libraries".
2024-02-22 17:12:19 <@tibbs:fedora.im> We know what "libraries" means in other contexts; that's just %_libdir but I assume they mean something quite different in this context.
2024-02-22 17:12:41 <@james:fedora.im> I assume it's more like golang "libraries" and less like C libraries.
2024-02-22 17:12:54 <@james:fedora.im> But I know nothing about fortran.
2024-02-22 17:13:14 <@tibbs:fedora.im> But if so, then why would you put those someplace different than any other library?
2024-02-22 17:15:01 <@limb:fedora.im> Due to assumptions made by other tooling?
2024-02-22 17:15:24 <@salimma:fedora.im> maybe we should ask the PR submitter to clarify what they mean, we don't know enough to even begin to speculate
2024-02-22 17:15:28 <@tibbs:fedora.im> Basically the entire ticket leaves me more confused about fortran than I was before I read it.
2024-02-22 17:15:35 <@salimma:fedora.im> and ask for a concrete example
2024-02-22 17:18:23 <@james:fedora.im> Okay, I posted a comment.
2024-02-22 17:20:11 <@james:fedora.im> And from that no ideas, to one where almost everyone already shouted at the OP with their opinion ;)
2024-02-22 17:20:13 <@james:fedora.im> https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1333
2024-02-22 17:21:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm really not happy about how stuff like this keeps coming
2024-02-22 17:21:28 <@salimma:fedora.im> ahh this
2024-02-22 17:21:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> they already keep pushing for us to ban Lua scriptlets because rpm-ostree doesn't support Lua
2024-02-22 17:22:07 <@salimma:fedora.im> I thought there is general consensus that the only two writable place in immutable world would be /etc/ and /var/
2024-02-22 17:22:15 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Yes.
2024-02-22 17:22:22 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> That's kind of the point.
2024-02-22 17:22:29 <@salimma:fedora.im> what's the story behind this Lua thing? don't they just use RPM underneath?
2024-02-22 17:22:35 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> No.
2024-02-22 17:22:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> They reimplement RPM.
2024-02-22 17:22:53 <@salimma:fedora.im> I mean, we moved things that make sense to /usr - like the rpmdb - but asking everyone else to not use /var seems... overly restrictive
2024-02-22 17:23:02 <@daandemeyer/:matrix.org> Even /etc is under discussion
2024-02-22 17:23:07 <@salimma:fedora.im> I commented there saying their recommendation to just use systemd is unworkable
2024-02-22 17:23:39 <@salimma:fedora.im> that sounds like a nightmare. when key components like systemd explicitly recommend using /etc for user customization
2024-02-22 17:24:02 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> if they want those kinds of things to be happening, their "not-rpm" part of rpm-ostree should be doing that stuff automatically for the user
2024-02-22 17:24:06 <@salimma:fedora.im> the laugh is directed not at you
2024-02-22 17:24:15 <@james:fedora.im> I think of it a bit like cross compiling gcc ... they still use rpm, but you can't actually run anything at install time anymore.
2024-02-22 17:24:54 <@salimma:fedora.im> rpm-the-format not rpm-the-tool, right?
2024-02-22 17:25:01 <@salimma:fedora.im> what is their not-rpm called?
2024-02-22 17:25:03 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Yeah, they use _enough_ of librpm and libdnf to make stuff kind of work, but they also change enough of the guts that it doesn't actually work the way people expect it to.
2024-02-22 17:25:56 <@james:fedora.im> rpm-ostree
2024-02-22 17:26:05 <@james:fedora.im> At least atm.
2024-02-22 17:26:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah
2024-02-22 17:26:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> they've wanted to change the name a few times now
2024-02-22 17:26:42 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> who knows if it'll happen
2024-02-22 17:27:31 <@james:fedora.im> bifrost is the new PR name, but it's currently still mostly rpm-ostree with more UI (AIUI).
2024-02-22 17:27:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> better than dnf-image
2024-02-22 17:27:49 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> (yes, really)
2024-02-22 17:28:23 <@salimma:fedora.im> that name is not confusing at all
2024-02-22 17:28:33 <@salimma:fedora.im> is it supposed to be ... a bridge between... what? :)
2024-02-22 17:28:36 <@limb:fedora.im> I had thusfar not managed to read this ticket and now I have and....
2024-02-22 17:29:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> in _theory_ the rainbow bridge between traditional rpm and fully immutable image based thingies
2024-02-22 17:29:24 <@limb:fedora.im> I guess the package just sort of zhoops in out of the sky and hits stuff with a hammer?
2024-02-22 17:29:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> in practice... the rainbow is a bit faded and cracked...
2024-02-22 17:30:05 <@james:fedora.im> It makes some sense (as much as anything in tech does) ... the general idea is that when you want to change your OS, you build a new container and then move to it.
2024-02-22 17:30:43 <@james:fedora.im> Magic rainbow bridge from the OS to any container
2024-02-22 17:30:52 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> oh god
2024-02-22 17:31:07 <@limb:fedora.im> Sort of a miracle. Maybe not beefy.
2024-02-22 17:31:09 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Bifrost
2024-02-22 17:32:07 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> hi! sorry, I lost track of time. this would have been my third meeting today :(
2024-02-22 17:32:14 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> oof
2024-02-22 17:32:32 <@james:fedora.im> ThreePeet!
2024-02-22 17:34:05 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yeah I like the idea behind rpm/ostree, but I don't like the implementation :(
2024-02-22 17:40:01 <@salimma:fedora.im> opensuse's approach seems much more compatible with traditional packaging
2024-02-22 17:40:16 <@salimma:fedora.im> of course that means it relies on btrfs or another filesystem with snapshots
2024-02-22 17:40:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Yes, it maximally reuses the existing capabilities and is pretty straightforward to reason.
2024-02-22 17:42:02 <@james:fedora.im> Michel Lind🎩: you think you can bridge between what they want what OpenSuSE do, that will make everyone happy?
2024-02-22 17:42:53 <@salimma:fedora.im> oh, they're so invested in ostree already that ship has long sailed
2024-02-22 17:43:03 <@salimma:fedora.im> just grumbling that all this is so unnecessary
2024-02-22 17:44:38 <@limb:fedora.im> What a waste..you could have been writing odd niche new build systems!
2024-02-22 17:44:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> oh god no
2024-02-22 17:44:55 <@salimma:fedora.im> you mean like buck2 ?
2024-02-22 17:45:58 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> you're no fun :P 
2024-02-22 17:46:02 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> ooof
2024-02-22 17:46:06 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> `unsafe`
2024-02-22 17:46:21 <@limb:fedora.im> Why read documentation when you can bundle a fork of meson?
2024-02-22 17:46:40 <@salimma:fedora.im> I mean, once they do I'll definitely ship it in Fedora and then we can start cleaning up Meta's dual build system craziness (buck2 + cmake)
2024-02-22 17:46:47 <@james:fedora.im> The Venn diagram of rust devs and rust devs who want to use nightly features is a circle.
2024-02-22 17:46:56 <@salimma:fedora.im> forking the build tool, now that is scary
2024-02-22 17:47:13 <@salimma:fedora.im> "we compile from source anyway so who cares"
2024-02-22 17:47:33 <@salimma:fedora.im> Rust in the kernel will be... my sympathies for people who have to maintain LTS kernels
2024-02-22 17:48:01 <@zodbot:fedora.im> neil gave a cookie to james. They now have 38 cookies, 1 of which were obtained in the Fedora 39 release cycle
2024-02-22 17:48:04 <@james:fedora.im> The one upside they have is all kernel maintainers are very good at saying "no"
2024-02-22 17:48:19 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ngompa gave a cookie to james. They now have 39 cookies, 2 of which were obtained in the Fedora 39 release cycle
2024-02-22 17:48:33 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I learned today that Ardour is forking GTK2
2024-02-22 17:48:39 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so... yeah...
2024-02-22 17:48:49 <@limb:fedora.im> Oh hell
2024-02-22 17:49:09 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I am a Rust dev and I don't :( while I use Rust nightly to develop my stuff, I don't enable any nightly-only features
2024-02-22 17:49:18 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it sucks even with non-LTS kernels right now :(
2024-02-22 17:49:42 <@limb:fedora.im> Just write a new DE in svgalib and get it over with.
2024-02-22 17:50:02 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> at least they seem very committed to keeping up with latest Rust versions and reducing the number of nightly-only features they need
2024-02-22 17:50:04 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> oh geez, I remember svgalib
2024-02-22 17:50:07 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> Linux isn't real and it can't hurt you (allegedly)
2024-02-22 17:50:19 <@james:fedora.im> 🤯
2024-02-22 17:50:51 <@salimma:fedora.im> at least they are not forking X11
2024-02-22 17:51:15 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> https://ardour.org/whatsnew.html
2024-02-22 17:51:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> > From a project-level perspective, perhaps the most important change is that we have moved the source code of our GUI toolkit (GTK v2) into the Ardour source tree.
2024-02-22 17:51:34 <@salimma:fedora.im> I so wish this is real https://tech.slashdot.org/story/02/03/31/2350239/qt-for-the-console
2024-02-22 17:52:03 <@limb:fedora.im> I need a drink.
2024-02-22 17:52:56 <@salimma:fedora.im> how hard is the gtk2 -> 3 transition really?
2024-02-22 17:53:03 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> very
2024-02-22 17:53:04 <@salimma:fedora.im> or to 4 right away, or heck to Qt
2024-02-22 17:53:07 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it was a huge API break
2024-02-22 17:53:10 <@salimma:fedora.im> why... try to maintain gtk2
2024-02-22 17:53:29 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> most likely they wrote custom widgets in gtk2
2024-02-22 17:53:35 <@salimma:fedora.im> oh fun
2024-02-22 17:53:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it's the same reason anaconda isn't porting to gtk4
2024-02-22 17:54:00 <@salimma:fedora.im> easier to just use a browser huh
2024-02-22 17:54:00 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> custom widgets are difficult to port to newer versions of gtk
2024-02-22 17:54:03 <@james:fedora.im> It wasn't as bad as py2 to py3
2024-02-22 17:54:06 <@limb:fedora.im> 🫠
2024-02-22 17:54:11 <@salimma:fedora.im> you'd think that's what wxgtk and friends are for
2024-02-22 17:54:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> this was because of lack of devs
2024-02-22 17:54:26 <@limb:fedora.im> This is only hard if you use strings.
2024-02-22 17:54:49 <@james:fedora.im> I did not know that ... what is the plan?
2024-02-22 17:55:12 <@james:fedora.im> Also feel like I should endmeeting and not have this all recorded ;)
2024-02-22 17:55:28 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> don't think there is one
2024-02-22 17:55:46 <@limb:fedora.im> On the bright side it might make for a 🔥🔥🔥 LWN article.
2024-02-22 17:58:29 <@salimma:fedora.im> back on a more relevant topic - there was talk recently about purging inactive members and electing new ones
2024-02-22 17:58:32 <@salimma:fedora.im> is that.. happening?
2024-02-22 17:59:06 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I think we should. there are people in the group that haven't showed up for literally years
2024-02-22 17:59:22 <@james:fedora.im> You'll be shocked to know that the people who don't turn up to meetings did not reply to my email.
2024-02-22 17:59:29 <@limb:fedora.im> You.
2024-02-22 17:59:31 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> :D
2024-02-22 17:59:31 <@limb:fedora.im> Don't
2024-02-22 17:59:32 <@limb:fedora.im> Say.
2024-02-22 17:59:39 <@limb:fedora.im> Don't.
2024-02-22 18:00:46 <@james:fedora.im> I don't think we've ever "fired" anybody ... they've always volunteered to leave, old and broken.
2024-02-22 18:01:35 <@limb:fedora.im> Some of us have stayed on, old and broken.
2024-02-22 18:02:42 <@james:fedora.im> I am in this comment and I don't like it.
2024-02-22 18:03:53 <@limb:fedora.im> "This is just a reminder for anyone who's used Fedora Core 3 to take some ibuprofen for their  back"
2024-02-22 18:04:11 <@limb:fedora.im> "This is just a reminder for anyone who's used Fedora Core 3 to take some ibuprofen for their back"
2024-02-22 18:06:22 <@salimma:fedora.im> thanks for the reminder - I need to stand up and stretch :P
2024-02-22 18:07:09 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, we are six minutes over ... we should all walk around a bit and try to remember what we were going to do.
2024-02-22 18:07:16 <@james:fedora.im> !endmeeting