2025-01-23 17:00:10 <@james:fedora.im> !startmeeting fpc

2025-01-23 17:00:15 <@james:fedora.im> !topic Roll Call
2025-01-23 17:00:20 <@tibbs:fedora.im> Hey.
2025-01-23 17:00:23 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> !hi
2025-01-23 17:01:00 <@james:fedora.im> !hi
2025-01-23 17:01:03 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> hello 👋
2025-01-23 17:01:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2025-01-23 17:01:37 <@james:fedora.im> Ohh, meetbot is v. slow today ... thought it was dead for a minute
2025-01-23 17:02:11 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yeah, message bus seems unhappy due to a short network outage
2025-01-23 17:02:49 <@limb:fedora.im> !hi
2025-01-23 17:02:50 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Gwyn Ciesla (limb) - she / her / hers
2025-01-23 17:04:43 <@salimma:fedora.im> !hi
2025-01-23 17:04:44 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
2025-01-23 17:05:29 <@james:fedora.im> !topic FPC#1431 https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1431
2025-01-23 17:06:02 <@james:fedora.im> We talked about this last week and Fabio Valentini kind of volunteered ... anything else to add?
2025-01-23 17:06:24 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> there's a PR that would implement this: https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1436
2025-01-23 17:07:03 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> but after comments from Panu, latest status seems to be "let's put this on hold" https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1436#comment-214320
2025-01-23 17:07:24 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> maybe dropping the table and referring to the setup package can be split off?
2025-01-23 17:08:10 <@james:fedora.im> yeh, hopefully
2025-01-23 17:10:32 <@james:fedora.im> Holding documentation stuff like that up on when rpm changes occur would be a very slow pace.
2025-01-23 17:11:04 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yup - left a comment: https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1436#comment-214412
2025-01-23 17:12:31 <@james:fedora.im> Cool
2025-01-23 17:12:36 <@james:fedora.im> !topic Open Floor
2025-01-23 17:12:49 <@james:fedora.im> Anyone have anything they'd like to discuss?
2025-01-23 17:13:03 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> anyone going to fosdem?
2025-01-23 17:13:33 <@salimma:fedora.im> Me
2025-01-23 17:13:56 <@james:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: I thought you were going?
2025-01-23 17:14:52 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> me too ... busy week 😬
2025-01-23 17:14:53 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> same... 🫂
2025-01-23 17:15:17 <@james:fedora.im> It's next week, right?
2025-01-23 17:15:27 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> damn those C compilers, all of a sudden enforcing more type safety! ✊️
2025-01-23 17:15:32 <@james:fedora.im> Maybe want to cancel the meeting?
2025-01-23 17:16:06 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yeah, I will most be at CentOS connect next week at this time 
2025-01-23 17:17:04 <@salimma:fedora.im> CentOS connect Thu Fri, FOSDEM sat sun
2025-01-23 17:17:51 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> !info FPC meeting on Jan. 30, 2025 is canceled due to conflicts with CentOS Connect / FOSDEM
2025-01-23 17:18:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm running things on Thursday at Connect
2025-01-23 17:18:19 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so there's no way I'm attending any fedora meetings that day 😅
2025-01-23 17:19:20 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so many FTBFS
2025-01-23 17:19:37 <@salimma:fedora.im> How many? I have 29 🫠
2025-01-23 17:19:39 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> you can me both 
2025-01-23 17:19:47 <@salimma:fedora.im> On par with last FOSDEM iirc
2025-01-23 17:19:50 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> you and me both (can't type today)
2025-01-23 17:19:52 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 50
2025-01-23 17:19:58 <@salimma:fedora.im> The spring releases are brutal
2025-01-23 17:20:03 <@salimma:fedora.im> Oy vey
2025-01-23 17:20:05 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah
2025-01-23 17:20:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm drowning in Go failures _and_ GCC 15 failures
2025-01-23 17:20:28 <@salimma:fedora.im> It's a sign from the universe to drop packages that don't spark joy anymore 🫠
2025-01-23 17:20:42 <@james:fedora.im> Ugh, what broke in go?
2025-01-23 17:20:52 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I kind of wish there was an easier way to pass -std=gnu11 to the compiler 
2025-01-23 17:20:54 <@salimma:fedora.im> Golang 1.24 i think
2025-01-23 17:20:56 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> apparently everything, because most of my failures are Go based'
2025-01-23 17:20:58 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> > Go fish!
2025-01-23 17:21:14 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> Go 1.24 adds more format string checking logic
2025-01-23 17:21:15 <@salimma:fedora.im> Yeah. I have a new vendored golang package and that broke too
2025-01-23 17:21:18 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> (anyone going to fosdem is allowed to slap me for that one)
2025-01-23 17:21:19 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I have very few GCC 15 ones, mostly a ton of Go 1.24 ones
2025-01-23 17:21:39 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> on a positive note, the caddy ftbfs inspired me to dig into why i kept having to skip flaky tests, and found that upstream runs their tests with `-short` which took care of all my problems and let me drop a patch
2025-01-23 17:21:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yay
2025-01-23 17:21:54 <@salimma:fedora.im> Ahh
2025-01-23 17:21:56 <@romanepo:fedora.im> Want to pull all new commit from os repository
2025-01-23 17:21:56 <@romanepo:fedora.im> Which OS repository is appropriate to build and assemble new releases to test rotation deployment of new releases and stable release of okd and OpenStack ? 
2025-01-23 17:21:57 <@james:fedora.im> Weird, I'd seen the relnotes for 1.24 and it seemed new features and perf. improvements.
2025-01-23 17:22:05 <@salimma:fedora.im> So you were getting timeout problems that even upstream doesn't care about huh
2025-01-23 17:22:06 <@james:fedora.im> Not actually tried it yet though
2025-01-23 17:22:27 <@salimma:fedora.im> Um... Wrong channel?
2025-01-23 17:23:10 <@romanepo:fedora.im> Sorry for that
2025-01-23 17:23:13 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> James Antill: https://tip.golang.org/doc/go1.24#vet under "printf analyzer" 
2025-01-23 17:24:10 <@salimma:fedora.im> Since this is FPC... can we encourage compiler changes to be tested like python tests new releases?
2025-01-23 17:24:21 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> they *should* have been 
2025-01-23 17:24:23 <@salimma:fedora.im> Not mandate it, but point to the python copr testing as a gold standard
2025-01-23 17:24:41 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> apparently they kind of assumed that the mass rebuild would be postponed and were surprised when it wasn't
2025-01-23 17:24:46 <@salimma:fedora.im> (and file bugs against packages before landing the change in rawhide... Febian does this too)
2025-01-23 17:24:57 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> that would be a good question for #devel:fedoraproject.org 
2025-01-23 17:25:00 <@salimma:fedora.im> (and file bugs against packages before landing the change in rawhide... debian does this too)
2025-01-23 17:25:20 <@james:fedora.im> It was pushed a bit due to GCC update, IIRC ... just a day or two and it might have needed more like a week or two
2025-01-23 17:26:04 <@james:fedora.im> But, yeh, golang should think about doing side tags and rebuilding everything if it's going to start failing builds on updates.
2025-01-23 17:26:04 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yeah. they said they did a mass rebuild in COPR but didn't have time to investigate stuff
2025-01-23 17:26:14 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> (not go, but gcc)
2025-01-23 17:26:28 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I wonder if we need to add a cutoff for toolchain changes
2025-01-23 17:26:34 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> to the change proposal deadlines
2025-01-23 17:26:46 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we added one for infra changes a few years ago
2025-01-23 17:26:50 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yeah. pushing major compiler update hours before mass rebuild seems ill-advised 
2025-01-23 17:27:11 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> no chance to fix any immediate fallout
2025-01-23 17:27:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I genuinely did not expect this much fallout from the Go compiler update
2025-01-23 17:27:27 <@james:fedora.im> Hard to do things like that when one of our Fs is for First
2025-01-23 17:27:30 <@salimma:fedora.im> Cutoff, plus encouraging testing pre releases in COPR and filing issues, seems like a reasonable improvement
2025-01-23 17:27:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I have been prepared for GCC fallout, so that one didn't bother me
2025-01-23 17:27:55 <@james:fedora.im> Asking for more testing seems much more doable though
2025-01-23 17:27:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> pleasantly surprised to not have too much of that
2025-01-23 17:28:04 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I think "new GCC and Go major releases must land in rawhide one week before mass rebuild" wouldn't contradict that principle
2025-01-23 17:28:42 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we should probably generalize that to new toolchain major releases and then carve out an exception for llvm
2025-01-23 17:28:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> since llvm will never ever make it
2025-01-23 17:29:06 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> who's going to file the fesco ticket? :D
2025-01-23 17:29:21 <@salimma:fedora.im> Snowflakes...
2025-01-23 17:29:35 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> no, apples
2025-01-23 17:29:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> llvm always lands the day of beta freeze or the day after
2025-01-23 17:29:56 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it's annoying as heck, but fesco is resigned to this... we tried :(
2025-01-23 17:30:16 <@james:fedora.im> Roughly how many packages rely on llvm now?
2025-01-23 17:30:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the main critical ones are rustc and mesa
2025-01-23 17:30:38 <@salimma:fedora.im> I owe too many documentation PRs already, not me (at least not soon)
2025-01-23 17:31:03 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I can do it
2025-01-23 17:31:13 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> $ dnfraw repoquery --whatrequires llvm-libs --qf "%{source_name}\n" | wc -l
2025-01-23 17:31:13 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> 21
2025-01-23 17:31:29 <@salimma:fedora.im> For llvm I feel like we should ask them to package it like python 
2025-01-23 17:31:41 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> we kind of did, they didn't want to
2025-01-23 17:31:49 <@salimma:fedora.im> And not switch the default to the new one if it lands late. Just make it available as an option to people who need it
2025-01-23 17:32:56 <@salimma:fedora.im> So maybe the tool chain deadline can be something that we can point them to, whether it helps or not 
2025-01-23 17:33:18 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we should consider asking gcc to do the same too
2025-01-23 17:33:29 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, have the wording be something like "the default version of the toolchain, used to build packages"
2025-01-23 17:33:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> fedora has had multiversioned gcc for a couple of releases now
2025-01-23 17:34:02 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it might make sense to just switch to that model like opensuse does
2025-01-23 17:34:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> (it exists for cuda atm)
2025-01-23 17:34:27 <@salimma:fedora.im> Yeah, they're already doing an older version for cuda. Should be easy to now say also make the newest version non default
2025-01-23 17:34:38 <@james:fedora.im> Interesting ... it's been a few years since I've really done any work in C ... not sure if I want to go back ;)
2025-01-23 17:37:34 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> > https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3347
2025-01-23 17:38:09 <@zodbot:fedora.im> salimma gave a cookie to decathorpe. They now have 114 cookies, 4 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2025-01-23 17:38:19 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ngompa gave a cookie to decathorpe. They now have 115 cookies, 5 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2025-01-23 17:38:20 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I expect that we'd want a devel list discussion for this too, but it seems uncontroversial
2025-01-23 17:39:54 <@zodbot:fedora.im> carlwgeorge gave a cookie to decathorpe. They now have 116 cookies, 6 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2025-01-23 17:40:24 <@zodbot:fedora.im> james gave a cookie to decathorpe. They now have 117 cookies, 7 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2025-01-23 17:40:43 <@salimma:fedora.im> That's probably a good idea. We never know what people might object to
2025-01-23 17:41:00 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I expect some objection from the toolchain folks, actually
2025-01-23 17:41:07 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> that too
2025-01-23 17:41:13 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> probably a mix of "7 days isn't enough" and "how dare you not let me push things in last minute"
2025-01-23 17:41:25 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> *objection!*
2025-01-23 17:41:25 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> us: *overruled!*
2025-01-23 17:41:25 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> 
2025-01-23 17:42:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> if the gcc freeze was November 1 instead of November 15, it probably could all be done on time
2025-01-23 17:42:42 <@salimma:fedora.im> Yeah, so a devel discussion will probably have the packagers siding with fesco against the tool chain team
2025-01-23 17:43:10 <@salimma:fedora.im> It's nice being on the popular side for once
2025-01-23 17:43:12 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yes, like what happened with the annobin thing during gcc10
2025-01-23 17:44:08 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> ah, actually I guess that was gcc8
2025-01-23 17:44:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> oh nope it's just happened multiple times 🙃
2025-01-23 17:44:46 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the most recent one was https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/FNOL635TXCZ2AUEJ7VS6GZHLMPTHMYWO/
2025-01-23 17:45:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that's what led to https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2454
2025-01-23 17:46:09 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> oh, familar faces 
2025-01-23 17:46:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yup 😅
2025-01-23 17:46:46 <@salimma:fedora.im> We should cite this in the new ticket too
2025-01-23 17:46:57 <@james:fedora.im> I'm not shocked, but still amused.
2025-01-23 17:46:57 <@salimma:fedora.im> To justify getting a generalized deadline 
2025-01-23 17:47:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah
2025-01-23 17:47:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> toolchain stuff is hard, and packagers are squeezed by the fallout when there isn't enough time
2025-01-23 17:47:33 <@salimma:fedora.im> Slight segue - James Antill how do you script sending the meeting notifications as DMs to everyone?
2025-01-23 17:48:42 <@james:fedora.im> Very complicatesd script ... I open https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging_Committee_Meeting_Process#On_the_day_of_the_meeting in another window and copy and paste each line
2025-01-23 17:49:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> human script :o
2025-01-23 17:50:02 <@james:fedora.im> On IRC I used to be able to paste the entire thing as one block, but that doesn't work in matrix (would love to see an option/fix for that).
2025-01-23 17:50:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I wonder if Quaternion has such a thing
2025-01-23 17:50:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it is a Matrix client that tries to behave like an IRC one
2025-01-23 17:50:52 <@salimma:fedora.im> I had high hopes for the rust matrix client but it choked trying to log in to my fedora.im 🫠
2025-01-23 17:51:37 <@james:fedora.im> I think Fedora SSO for matrix hits most of the new clients people want to try
2025-01-23 17:51:49 <@james:fedora.im> So ... not shocked.
2025-01-23 17:52:18 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I think Quaternion supports ODIC/SSO login
2025-01-23 17:52:20 <@james:fedora.im> On the upside, I think they all get it to work eventually
2025-01-23 17:52:25 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I think Fractal should work now
2025-01-23 17:52:28 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> NeoChat does and they use the same backend
2025-01-23 17:54:07 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> (I have used both NeoChat and Fractal with fedora.im before, but the former crashed on me and the latter is hideous)
2025-01-23 17:54:08 <@salimma:fedora.im> Fractal does work, it's just missing some features
2025-01-23 17:54:29 <@salimma:fedora.im> So I'm still on element, schildi and if I really have to, fluffy 
2025-01-23 17:54:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I use Element and NeoChat currently
2025-01-23 17:55:39 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> i've tried a handful of clients and not really happy with any of them.  element web seems like the least bad.
2025-01-23 17:56:21 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> close meeting? :D
2025-01-23 17:56:28 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> seems to be very offtopic now
2025-01-23 17:57:04 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah I think we're pretty much done here
2025-01-23 17:59:41 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh
2025-01-23 17:59:54 <@james:fedora.im> !endmeeting