2025-04-10 16:00:38 <@james:fedora.im> !startmeeting fpc

2025-04-10 16:00:39 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2025-04-10 16:00:38 UTC
2025-04-10 16:00:39 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'fpc'
2025-04-10 16:00:41 <@james:fedora.im> !topic Roll Call
2025-04-10 16:00:45 <@james:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-10 16:00:47 <@zodbot:fedora.im> James Antill (james)
2025-04-10 16:00:49 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-10 16:00:49 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Carl George (carlwgeorge) - he / him / his
2025-04-10 16:00:55 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-10 16:00:56 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Fabio Valentini (decathorpe) - he / him / his
2025-04-10 16:05:22 <@salimma:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-10 16:05:24 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
2025-04-10 16:05:42 <@james:fedora.im> WE have enough for golf, now ;)
2025-04-10 16:05:49 <@james:fedora.im> We have enough for golf, now ;)
2025-04-10 16:06:29 <@salimma:fedora.im> this is why people should take up squash - you can play solo ;)
2025-04-10 16:07:13 <@james:fedora.im> And die from a heart attack ;)
2025-04-10 16:07:30 <@james:fedora.im> !topic FPC PR#1448 https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1448
2025-04-10 16:07:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2025-04-10 16:07:43 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2025-04-10 16:07:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Framework 12 preorder day :)
2025-04-10 16:07:56 <@james:fedora.im> Cool, we have 5
2025-04-10 16:08:40 <@james:fedora.im> I think we can merge 1448 now? Carl George: Do I understand correctly that this is good for epel 9 too?
2025-04-10 16:09:18 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> yeah miro set me straight on that
2025-04-10 16:09:32 <@james:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: New laptop? What bit are you most excited about?
2025-04-10 16:09:38 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> we'll just add a footnote on the epel side about the epel8 caveat
2025-04-10 16:09:44 <@james:fedora.im> Sounds good.
2025-04-10 16:09:57 <@james:fedora.im> Unless anyone objects I'll merge it in a minute
2025-04-10 16:11:10 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> interestingly this is just for examples, the main patch guidelines don't explain the differences
2025-04-10 16:11:20 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> affordable and durable, while having a pen input screen for notes
2025-04-10 16:11:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> makes for a good travel and note-taking laptop
2025-04-10 16:11:47 <@james:fedora.im> !topic FPC PR#1451 https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1451
2025-04-10 16:11:51 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> yeah it's appealing, i just already think the fw13 is too small
2025-04-10 16:12:00 <@salimma:fedora.im> physically durable. hope the battery issue is actually resolved in later models :P
2025-04-10 16:12:11 <@james:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: Cool, hopefully will see you live with it somewhere in the US and you can show it off.
2025-04-10 16:12:13 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> i'd like a 14 or 15 inch version with that same durability and tablet mode
2025-04-10 16:12:28 <@salimma:fedora.im> the 13 is perfect for me but I have small hands. I won't touch the 12 because tablet mode (I'm different I guess) and also Intel only
2025-04-10 16:12:56 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I want it to be nice to use on planes too
2025-04-10 16:13:19 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> otherwise yeah I'd prefer a larger laptop
2025-04-10 16:13:28 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> i avoid serious work on planes and just watch movies on my 10in tablet
2025-04-10 16:13:55 <@salimma:fedora.im> same. soon I won't even be able to use plane wifi as they all go starlink
2025-04-10 16:13:56 <@james:fedora.im> I used to work on trains/planes ... my RSI does not thank me for it.
2025-04-10 16:14:07 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I only get paid when I do work, so... 😅
2025-04-10 16:14:40 <@salimma:fedora.im> yeah. I prefer audiobooks when on trains
2025-04-10 16:15:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> on short jumps I just don't bother, but 10+ hour flights are boring
2025-04-10 16:15:45 <@salimma:fedora.im> movies :)
2025-04-10 16:15:49 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it's hard to even entertain myself for that long and I get twitchy :P
2025-04-10 16:16:04 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> my last international flight I did work on my _phone_
2025-04-10 16:16:05 <@salimma:fedora.im> I don't even bother watching new movies anymore, I just watch one or two old favorites then try to nap the rest of the time
2025-04-10 16:16:30 <@salimma:fedora.im> but yea this is why between immigration getting weirder and work getting stingier it is getting harder to persuade me to fly to Europe
2025-04-10 16:16:52 <@salimma:fedora.im> but yeah... meeting? or do we not have other topics
2025-04-10 16:17:27 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, I'm trying very hard not to go through US immigration unless I really have to for at least the next 4 years.
2025-04-10 16:17:52 <@james:fedora.im> I did post one ... https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1451
2025-04-10 16:18:06 <@james:fedora.im> Seems like a simple merge, but wanted to make sure ;)
2025-04-10 16:18:19 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> i'm with neal on this one
2025-04-10 16:18:45 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah I don't really want to document it when it doesn't work
2025-04-10 16:19:11 <@salimma:fedora.im> yeah if it does not work without authentication then hard no
2025-04-10 16:19:20 <@james:fedora.im> Ahh, saw the bit about it working ... but that's just git.
2025-04-10 16:19:24 <@james:fedora.im> I'll close then.
2025-04-10 16:19:46 <@james:fedora.im> !topic FPC#1449 https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1449
2025-04-10 16:20:52 <@james:fedora.im> I guess someone should comment: A PR would be nice ;)
2025-04-10 16:21:04 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> this change feels a bit like whiplash
2025-04-10 16:21:54 <@salimma:fedora.im> pagure stopped loading for me :(
2025-04-10 16:21:55 <@salimma:fedora.im> urgh
2025-04-10 16:21:59 <@salimma:fedora.im> it was fine just 2 mins ago
2025-04-10 16:22:07 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, I do remember a time when I used %define all the time and then mysteriously the recommendation was to never use it.
2025-04-10 16:22:14 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> interesting, this is the first i've heard that the global advice wasn't true
2025-04-10 16:22:31 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yeah from "do A unless you really need B" to "do B unless you really need A"
2025-04-10 16:22:57 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I mean it's fine to document this but there are loads of places that would need adaptations 
2025-04-10 16:23:12 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> spec file templates, other documentation, fedora-review, etc.
2025-04-10 16:23:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the key change that flips the advice is that defines are spec global now too
2025-04-10 16:23:42 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> they used to be section local
2025-04-10 16:23:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> they aren't anymore
2025-04-10 16:23:59 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and lazy evaluation is generally better for macros anyway
2025-04-10 16:24:01 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> since which rpm version?
2025-04-10 16:24:54 <@james:fedora.im> Is the top of the file some kind of special section? Because I was pretty sure I could put a %define there and use it everywhere from the very beginning.
2025-04-10 16:24:56 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 4.14 I think?
2025-04-10 16:25:04 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> maybe even earlier
2025-04-10 16:25:22 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so that hasn't changed
2025-04-10 16:25:22 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> ok, so there should at least be no problem with older branches of Fedora or EPEL
2025-04-10 16:25:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> spec files are processed in order, so if you reference something that hasn't been defined yet, it's not going to work :)
2025-04-10 16:25:52 <@james:fedora.im> 👀 RPM 4.14.0 released! (Oct 12 2017)
2025-04-10 16:26:59 <@james:fedora.im> Anyway ... unless someone else wants to comment and/or do the patch, I'll comment saying that we generally agree it's fine and asking for a PR.
2025-04-10 16:27:02 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> i wouldn't mind getting explicit blessing from panu on the proposed wording to make sure it's accurate
2025-04-10 16:27:20 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> i would prefer getting explicit blessing from panu on the proposed wording to make sure it's accurate
2025-04-10 16:27:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I actually can't remember a version of rpm I've used (going even back to RHEL 7) that didn't work this way
2025-04-10 16:27:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> maybe it was before RHEL 7 where define was weirder
2025-04-10 16:28:05 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but that's more than 10 years ago and too ancient for me to care
2025-04-10 16:28:24 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> this scoping stuff is not computing in my brain right now, i need time to think about it to wrap my head around it.  but i trust panu on it.
2025-04-10 16:28:46 <@james:fedora.im> As I said, I would bet $5 that a %define at the top of the file could be used anywhere in RHEL 3
2025-04-10 16:29:03 <@james:fedora.im> So it's all a bit confusing.
2025-04-10 16:29:18 <@james:fedora.im> As Carl George said, it'd be nice to get bless of Panu on any new wording.
2025-04-10 16:29:20 <@salimma:fedora.im> yeah I also find the scoping confusing, and we should probably ask someone like Panu first before making any change
2025-04-10 16:29:53 <@salimma:fedora.im> like, I agree we should probably recommend using %global, but... would be nice to have the correct reasoning when doing so or we just confuse more people down the road
2025-04-10 16:31:09 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> fyi, if they put a magic word in the PR commit message, it will mark this issue as closed https://docs.pagure.org/pagure/usage/magic_words.html
2025-04-10 16:31:34 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> this is common on github but i rarely see it used on pagure
2025-04-10 16:33:25 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh. Did you want to do the comment Carl?
2025-04-10 16:34:05 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> sure i can, are we ok leaving it open until the PR closes it, or did you feel strongly about closing it and leaving further discussion to the PR comments?
2025-04-10 16:34:57 <@james:fedora.im> Oh, no I wasn't going to close it ... just let them know that we are fine with it, just want someone to write the words etc.
2025-04-10 16:35:19 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> ok cool
2025-04-10 16:35:24 <@james:fedora.im> !topic FPC#1452 https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1452
2025-04-10 16:35:54 <@james:fedora.im> Are we actually involved in this?
2025-04-10 16:37:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> isn't that a fesco thing?
2025-04-10 16:37:47 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> i can see the argument that since it was split out from another package it can be allowed.  iirc the rule is "no new packages can depend on deprecated packages", but this isn't truly a new package.
2025-04-10 16:37:48 <@james:fedora.im> I'm not sure who does it ... but I was pretty sure it wasn't us ;)
2025-04-10 16:39:05 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, if it's a package split and we can say it's fine ... then I'm fine saying that. But I don't want to start a dumpster fire by accident.
2025-04-10 16:39:09 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> the guidelines just say fesco approves changes for marking packages as deprecated, not who can approve exceptions to it
2025-04-10 16:39:32 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> logically that would also be fesco i think, but i don't want to assume
2025-04-10 16:40:05 <@james:fedora.im> ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
2025-04-10 16:40:32 <@james:fedora.im> I'll tell them to go speak to fesco
2025-04-10 16:40:51 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> yeah deferring to fesco seems safe, and fesco can always kick it back to us if they want
2025-04-10 16:41:01 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> "delegation"
2025-04-10 16:41:25 <@james:fedora.im> !topic Open Floor
2025-04-10 16:41:31 <@james:fedora.im> Anyone have anything else?
2025-04-10 16:42:53 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I thought package splits are explicitly exempted from "nothing new can depend on deprecated stuff"? 
2025-04-10 16:43:22 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> that makes sense as a rule, but i don't see it on the deprecations page
2025-04-10 16:43:37 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> i would +1 a pr that adds it
2025-04-10 16:44:51 <@james:fedora.im> yeh, I see no reason not to.
2025-04-10 16:44:54 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> hrm
2025-04-10 16:45:15 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> maybe I'm mixing this up with the "nothing new can use the CC0-1.0 license for code" :)
2025-04-10 16:45:33 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> which *is* explicitly documented to be fine for package splits and compat packages etc.
2025-04-10 16:47:02 <@james:fedora.im> Seems like we could have a generic rule that package splits don't count as new packages.
2025-04-10 16:51:20 <@salimma:fedora.im> as far as deprecation they should not count, I agree
2025-04-10 16:51:28 <@james:fedora.im> Baited in the ticket ;)
2025-04-10 16:52:45 <@james:fedora.im> Unless anyone has anything else I'll end the meeting in a couple of minutes.
2025-04-10 16:55:43 <@james:fedora.im> !endmeeting