2026-02-05 17:00:01 <@james:fedora.im> !startmeeting fpc

2026-02-05 17:00:03 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2026-02-05 17:00:01 UTC
2026-02-05 17:00:04 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'fpc'
2026-02-05 17:00:06 <@james:fedora.im> !topic Roll Call
2026-02-05 17:00:29 <@gordonmessmer:fedora.im> !hi
2026-02-05 17:00:30 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Gordon Messmer (gordonmessmer)
2026-02-05 17:00:32 <@tibbs:fedora.im> Howdy.
2026-02-05 17:00:44 <@james:fedora.im> Hey
2026-02-05 17:00:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2026-02-05 17:00:57 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2026-02-05 17:02:36 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> !hi
2026-02-05 17:02:37 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Fabio Valentini (decathorpe) - he / him / his
2026-02-05 17:04:43 <@james:fedora.im> And then there were only four.
2026-02-05 17:04:58 <@james:fedora.im> !topic FPC PR#1521 https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1521
2026-02-05 17:05:07 <@james:fedora.im> I think this is an easy merge, but wanted to check.
2026-02-05 17:06:00 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> !hi
2026-02-05 17:06:01 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Carl George (carlwgeorge) - he / him / his
2026-02-05 17:06:02 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> in general I'm not a fan of neither 1) specifying multiple BRs on one line with `,` nor 2) this strange setup that you need to depend on all these things just to get a working /usr/bin/node ...
2026-02-05 17:06:32 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> point 1) could easily be fixed, 2) probably not 
2026-02-05 17:07:09 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> iiuc it's not all of them, you pick and choose what you need
2026-02-05 17:07:29 <@tibbs:fedora.im> Are they trying really hard to avoid a metapackage?
2026-02-05 17:07:52 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2026-02-05 17:08:06 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> weird, this passed fesco with just +2
2026-02-05 17:08:30 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I'm pretty sure some of the weirdness was added post-approval 
2026-02-05 17:08:33 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> the original CP was simpler 
2026-02-05 17:09:46 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I don't have a problem with this, really, though if you're supposed to list on the ones that you need, perhaps that should be indicated.
2026-02-05 17:12:04 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> i wish more apps took the approach python did, with always versioned source rpms, and the default for a release having unversioned rpms
2026-02-05 17:13:16 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> though the NodeJS setup is supposed to allow you to swap the default to a different version
2026-02-05 17:13:16 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> 
2026-02-05 17:13:16 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yeah, from what I can tell, that's basically the "gold standard" for how to handle this
2026-02-05 17:13:20 <@james:fedora.im> I remember a time when people cared about compatibility and we didn't have 666 versions of every module/library.
2026-02-05 17:13:26 <@james:fedora.im> 👴
2026-02-05 17:13:29 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> though the NodeJS setup is supposed to allow you to swap the default to a different version (which the Python setup doesn't support)
2026-02-05 17:13:29 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> 
2026-02-05 17:13:29 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yeah, from what I can tell, that's basically the "gold standard" for how to handle this
2026-02-05 17:14:57 <@james:fedora.im> Anyway ... do you want to merge and then tweak it ... or refuse to merge before tweaks?
2026-02-05 17:15:32 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> can we at least ask for semantic line breaks before merging?
2026-02-05 17:15:50 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I'm only complaining that this is the way it was implemented ;)
2026-02-05 17:15:50 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yeah I'm not against documenting what needs to be done.
2026-02-05 17:15:51 <@james:fedora.im> Sure
2026-02-05 17:16:02 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> same
2026-02-05 17:17:00 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> this `*-bin` naming is weird.  arch's aur uses that to indicate packages with pre-compiled binaries.
2026-02-05 17:17:43 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> "-default" or "-unversioned" might have been better ... but at this point, probably too late to fix it for F44 
2026-02-05 17:18:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we can probably fix it after the fact
2026-02-05 17:18:09 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> similar to "python-unversioned-command" 
2026-02-05 17:19:25 <@james:fedora.im> !topic FPC PR#1520 https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1520
2026-02-05 17:19:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but I like the idea of `-default`
2026-02-05 17:19:44 <@james:fedora.im> Gordon Messmer: Want to say anything?
2026-02-05 17:20:12 <@gordonmessmer:fedora.im> https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1519#comment-1003054
2026-02-05 17:20:33 <@gordonmessmer:fedora.im> only what I added in the comment yesterday. :)
2026-02-05 17:20:52 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> sorry, didn't have a chance to catch up on this issue / PR since FOSDEM
2026-02-05 17:22:09 <@james:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: I assume you are +1 on it?
2026-02-05 17:22:16 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yup +1
2026-02-05 17:22:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we can iterate afterward as needed
2026-02-05 17:22:34 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and I think we should probably move his samples to somewhere fedora-y too
2026-02-05 17:22:39 <@james:fedora.im> I'm +1 too, although it feels like the wrong place.
2026-02-05 17:23:20 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> perhaps an appendix style page?
2026-02-05 17:23:34 <@james:fedora.im> I think the big problem with that is that if nobody owns it then it'll get lost over time.
2026-02-05 17:23:37 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> something like https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/Python_Appendix/
2026-02-05 17:24:46 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yes, a shared library appendix probably makes sense logically
2026-02-05 17:25:00 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it's not strictly C/C++ specific, even if the current examples are C/C++
2026-02-05 17:26:01 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> oh i was thinking specifically about a c/c++ appendix, i'm not sure where a shared appendix would fit structurally
2026-02-05 17:26:14 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we have a shared libraries section already
2026-02-05 17:26:22 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so just added an appendix page for that is sufficient
2026-02-05 17:26:42 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we should probably pull shared libraries into their own page rather than being in the monster page
2026-02-05 17:26:44 <@gordonmessmer:fedora.im> will https://pagure.io/packaging-committee -> a forgejo org? The org can host multiple repos, so that might be a good spot for the "libFoo" examples.
2026-02-05 17:27:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yes, we haven't figured out what it'll be called yet, but yes
2026-02-05 17:27:11 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yup 
2026-02-05 17:27:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the C/C++ documentation we have strictly speaking is the wrong kind of docs
2026-02-05 17:27:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so there's some reorganization we need to do here 😅
2026-02-05 17:28:17 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> won't this primarily be c/c++?
2026-02-05 17:28:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well, no
2026-02-05 17:28:42 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> you can implement version scripts for capturing symbols for any language that provides an ELF symbol table
2026-02-05 17:29:06 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> rephrasing, won't the vast majority of real world implementations be c/c++ programs?
2026-02-05 17:29:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> right now, yes, but in the future I think we'll see more plurality
2026-02-05 17:29:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it's fine to merge as-is
2026-02-05 17:29:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but a future step is to clean up and unify the shared library docs
2026-02-05 17:29:52 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> they are in like 4 different places in the packaging guidelines
2026-02-05 17:29:53 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> i think it makes sense to start in the c/c++ doc, and then adjust in the future if that comes to pass
2026-02-05 17:30:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> there's stuff in the monster page, in the c/c++ page, stuff in the versioning page, and so on
2026-02-05 17:30:33 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but really, shared libraries are a global concept in fedora
2026-02-05 17:30:42 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> i like this and agree it can be merged in the current state, but i would like to see the examples move to a c/c++ appendix page
2026-02-05 17:31:01 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> *in the future
2026-02-05 17:31:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> there's stuff in the monster page, in the c/c++ page, stuff in the Python page, and so on
2026-02-05 17:31:42 <@gordonmessmer:fedora.im> sure, I expect reorg and examples for other languages too. but getting the statement up that Fedora wants versioned symbols to improve dep resolution will help me approach more projects with PRs.
2026-02-05 17:31:42 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> there's stuff in the monster page, in the c/c++ page, stuff in the Python and Rust pages, and so on
2026-02-05 17:31:48 <@gordonmessmer:fedora.im> also, I expect a FAQ
2026-02-05 17:31:56 <@gordonmessmer:fedora.im> The expat maintainer had questions.
2026-02-05 17:32:19 <@gordonmessmer:fedora.im> I chatted with him on Meet for a good while
2026-02-05 17:32:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the most common languages I expect after C/C++ are Go and Rust
2026-02-05 17:33:12 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but again, I don't want to block this on that
2026-02-05 17:33:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm saying we need to make our docs more coherent on this over time
2026-02-05 17:33:34 <@james:fedora.im> I'm going to merge it then. Everyone is encouraged to open more PRs to make things better ;).
2026-02-05 17:33:34 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> oh we have a build system docs section, the cmake and meson examples can go in the corresponding pages.  i don't see one for automake though.
2026-02-05 17:34:54 <@james:fedora.im> I remember looking at scons a _long_ time ago, and thinking/hoping it'd become a new thing everything used.
2026-02-05 17:35:10 <@gordonmessmer:fedora.im> automake is mentioned, and a practical example is here: https://github.com/gordonmessmer/libFoo/tree/automake
2026-02-05 17:36:17 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> sure, i meant in the build systems section of the guidelines, to put the examples in the relevant pages under that
2026-02-05 17:36:28 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> e.g. https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/CMake/
2026-02-05 17:36:45 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we probably should also start documenting `%conf` and how to use it
2026-02-05 17:36:58 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Panu gets cranky when we don't use things we asked for
2026-02-05 17:38:03 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I've used %conf, but the issue as always was EPEL compatibility so people avoid it.
2026-02-05 17:38:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> (`%conf` came out of the discussion about banning `%configure` in `%prep`)
2026-02-05 17:38:41 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I have no idea what actually supports it now.
2026-02-05 17:38:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> (`%conf` came out of the discussion about banning `autoreconf` and `%configure` in `%prep`)
2026-02-05 17:38:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> RHEL 10+
2026-02-05 17:41:11 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it was added in RPM 4.18
2026-02-05 17:41:19 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> alongside `%bcond`
2026-02-05 17:41:41 <@tibbs:fedora.im> So a long time ago I tried to write a section on autoconf but I gut seriously bogged down in basically all the same stuff that people would still argue about.
2026-02-05 17:41:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> alongside `%bcond` improvements
2026-02-05 17:42:18 <@tibbs:fedora.im> But even years ago we recognized that we needed to document autoconf in the same way that we document cmake.
2026-02-05 17:43:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I wonder if we still have the crazy gnuconfigure macro that regenerates all the autofoo
2026-02-05 17:44:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> mmm seems not
2026-02-05 17:46:34 <@james:fedora.im> !topic Open Floor
2026-02-05 17:46:46 <@james:fedora.im> Been kind of an open floor for a bit, thought I'd make it official ;)
2026-02-05 17:46:56 <@james:fedora.im> Is there anything anyone wants to bring up?
2026-02-05 17:47:05 <@mschorm:fedora.im> !hi
2026-02-05 17:47:06 <@zodbot:fedora.im> None (mschorm)
2026-02-05 17:47:08 <@mschorm:fedora.im> https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1523
2026-02-05 17:49:35 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I think this is straightforward: these are mutually exclusive runtime alternatives
2026-02-05 17:49:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and it uses the pattern that I should really get around to documenting 😅
2026-02-05 17:49:51 <@james:fedora.im> This seems fine to me ... although this is yet another "we want to provide N versions at once" problem. So would be nice if we could document the "-unversioned" and "-any" and have everyone do the same thing.
2026-02-05 17:50:03 <@james:fedora.im> Those docs. shouldn't hold up this exception though, IMO.
2026-02-05 17:50:13 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah I think we can ok this
2026-02-05 17:50:32 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> this is another stick for me to deal with writing this, I think I already said I would a few years ago, but then blech
2026-02-05 17:50:42 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I'm curious. why "-any"? 
2026-02-05 17:50:55 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1440
2026-02-05 17:50:56 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> if add virtual provides, why not just make it "mariadb" suffixless? 
2026-02-05 17:51:51 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> ah, I see, that's used to denote the default one
2026-02-05 17:51:55 <@james:fedora.im> It basically is ... but there's different parts: server, client, and backup etc.
2026-02-05 17:52:15 <@mschorm:fedora.im> because we already use that.
2026-02-05 17:52:15 <@mschorm:fedora.im> 'mariadb10.11' package produces client sub-package called 'mariadb'. The versioned RPMs provides names like 'mariadb10.11' or 'mariadb11.8', and the distribution default version provides the unversioned 'mariadb' name
2026-02-05 17:52:21 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> so this is  nodejs from before turned inside out 
2026-02-05 17:53:08 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> would mariadb10.11-server upgrade to mariadb11.8-server during some fedora system-upgrade?
2026-02-05 17:54:01 <@mschorm:fedora.im> Other teams dealt with same issues, but most did so uncoordinated. And thus we have these various implementations ... like nodejs
2026-02-05 17:54:01 <@mschorm:fedora.im> We invented this to overcame modularity death for MariaDB, MySQL and PostgreSQL - they use pretty much the same code.
2026-02-05 17:54:49 <@james:fedora.im> It's okay, you can blame Conan Kudo ;)
2026-02-05 17:55:05 <@mschorm:fedora.im> AFAIK it should in the case the first is distro default version in fedora X, and the latter is new distro default version in fedora x+1
2026-02-05 17:55:31 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and the virtual name can't ever be a real package
2026-02-05 17:55:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> or dnf twists itself into a pretzel
2026-02-05 17:55:50 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> it won't upgrade solely because of the virtual provides, you would need obsoletes
2026-02-05 17:55:55 <@mschorm:fedora.im> See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/switch_distribution_default_MySQL_from_8.0_to_8.4#How_To_Test for how upgrades work when we switched distro default version in MySQL
2026-02-05 17:57:33 <@carlwgeorge:fedora.im> oh i see, the server subpackage isn't versioned, so it would be an implicit upgrade of the mariadb-server package
2026-02-05 17:57:54 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> right
2026-02-05 17:58:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it's the python model instead of the node model
2026-02-05 17:58:15 <@james:fedora.im> !info approved the exception.
2026-02-05 17:59:07 <@james:fedora.im> Also worth noting is that I'll be on PTO on the 19th and 26th ... so if someone else wants to run the meeting, or we can wait until March.
2026-02-05 18:00:49 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> waiting until March is fine
2026-02-05 18:01:38 <@james:fedora.im> Okay, see ya'll in a month.
2026-02-05 18:01:41 <@james:fedora.im> !endmeeting