05:31:06 <paragan> #startmeeting i18n
05:31:06 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue May 29 05:31:06 2018 UTC.
05:31:06 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
05:31:06 <zodbot> The chair is paragan. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
05:31:06 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
05:31:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n'
05:31:06 <paragan> #meetingname i18n
05:31:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n'
05:31:06 <paragan> #topic agenda and roll call
05:31:06 <paragan> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2018-05-29
05:31:14 <tagoh> hi
05:31:20 <mfabian> ☺
05:31:50 <vishal_vr> hi
05:31:52 <fujiwarat> hi
05:32:15 <epico> hi
05:32:21 <bhavin192> hi
05:32:39 <juhp> hi
05:32:55 <paragan> #chair tagoh mfabian vishal_vr fujiwarat epico bhavin192 juhp pravins
05:32:55 <zodbot> Current chairs: bhavin192 epico fujiwarat juhp mfabian paragan pravins tagoh vishal_vr
05:33:15 <pyadav> hi
05:33:15 <pravins> thanks paragan :)
05:33:17 <pravins> hi all
05:33:22 <paragan> #chair pyadav
05:33:22 <zodbot> Current chairs: bhavin192 epico fujiwarat juhp mfabian paragan pravins pyadav tagoh vishal_vr
05:33:31 <paragan> okay let's start
05:33:49 <paragan> #topic Upcoming schedule
05:33:59 <paragan> #info 2018-06-19 	Change Checkpoint: Proposal submission deadline (Changes requiring mass rebuild)
05:33:59 <paragan> #info 2018-07-03 	Change Checkpoint: Proposal submission deadline (System Wide Changes)
05:33:59 <paragan> #info 2018-07-11 	Mass Rebuild
05:34:13 <suanand> hi
05:34:19 <paragan> #chair suanand
05:34:19 <zodbot> Current chairs: bhavin192 epico fujiwarat juhp mfabian paragan pravins pyadav suanand tagoh vishal_vr
05:34:42 <paragan> so we are approaching towards F29 Change submission deadline
05:34:59 <paragan> but these will be those where mass-rebuilds are required
05:36:12 <paragan> the final date for Self Changes submission is 24 July
05:36:35 <paragan> so we have time to decide on Changes that we want to add in Fedora 29
05:37:07 <paragan> I will soon report a ticket for collecting the Change proposals maybe from next meeting
05:37:10 <juhp> Do we have any changes in the pipeline?
05:37:30 <juhp> Or should I say what changes we have planned?
05:37:43 <paragan> I think we got few changes reverted for Fedora 28, do we want to continue them adding in Fedora 29?
05:38:19 <tagoh> Noto changes again?
05:41:09 <juhp> tagoh: indeed
05:41:21 <juhp> Have we submitted any yet?
05:41:59 <juhp> paragan: I think we can do it as a single Change because it will now be a unified font collection
05:42:10 <paragan> we were thinking about using ttc format for fonts, are we still working on it and want to have that as Change in F29
05:42:11 <juhp> (or collections)
05:42:44 <juhp> It is already in Rawhide but we are still testing it I think
05:43:28 <tagoh> juhp: yes, single Change proposal would be fine. I'll create one later.
05:43:39 <juhp> thanks
05:44:51 <juhp> epico: I was thinking the issue with *xchat* is not really new perhaps - I think there were also problems with Japanese fonts when I was using them
05:46:16 <tagoh> juhp: rendering issue and ttc specific issue is different. dunno what the problem is on xchat though.
05:46:32 <paragan> fujiwarat, do you plan to add F29 Change for ibus for any development you are doing currently?
05:46:32 <juhp> okay
05:47:48 <epico> juhp: it is related to pango feature to use different fonts with different languages.
05:48:15 <juhp> okay
05:48:30 <juhp> anyway I think it is not specific to Noto CJK
05:49:00 <epico> prepend "DejaVu Sans Mono" fonts for CJK fonts will use the same fonts for ASCII characters of different languages.
05:49:18 <juhp> Right that might be a workaround
05:49:21 <fujiwarat> paragan: I filed ibus 1.6 for fedora but gsettings migration are not finished in ibus-m17n, ibus-typing-booster, ibus-table
05:49:46 <paragan> okay maybe then we will consider this for Fedora 30
05:50:08 <epico> juhp: it is used for Adobe Source Han fonts for a long time.
05:50:23 <fujiwarat> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/IBus_Change_APIs
05:50:25 <tagoh> epico: we usually use lang match for CJK. that should be no problem.
05:50:32 <paragan> anyone else got anything to discuss here?
05:51:08 <epico> tagoh: maybe I land that workaround for Fedora rawhide?
05:51:35 <juhp> epico: hmm I think we should use Noto Sans Mono CJK
05:51:55 <epico> juhp: but it still have the problem.
05:52:26 <epico> "Noto Sans Mono CJK" has different ASCII characters compared to "DejaVu Sans Mono".
05:52:27 <juhp> I think it's not specific to Chinese
05:52:48 <juhp> epico: why is that a problem?
05:52:53 <epico> I mean "Noto Sans Mono CJK" is not a workaround.
05:53:02 <juhp> I am not saying it is :)
05:53:12 <epico> ?
05:53:24 <juhp> I mean that the workaround is a hack :)
05:53:37 <epico> prepend "DejaVu Sans Mono" fonts for "Noto Sans Mono CJK" fonts?
05:53:42 <juhp> yes
05:53:46 <juhp> or Adobe
05:54:00 <juhp> Mono seems worse since it is actually Mono
05:54:09 <juhp> for *
05:54:45 <epico> okay, I will try to land the workaround this week.
05:54:53 <epico> if we agreed to use it.
05:55:02 <juhp> I think Polari can render fine - well I haven't tested 8-)
05:55:16 <juhp> epico: I was trying to disagree ;-)
05:55:29 <epico> right, only xchat and hexchat have the issue.
05:55:42 <juhp> I don't think we should do the workaround
05:56:02 <epico> it is not hard to land the hack, I am okay to defer until we have a decision. :)
05:56:12 <juhp> okay
05:56:31 <juhp> Though I admit it is not a good problem
05:57:01 <tagoh> anyway, if this limitation in pango can be fixed, good to try to fix that
05:57:16 <epico> for xchat and hexchat, change the font to "DejaVu Sans Mono" in xchat setup dialog also work around it...
05:57:17 <juhp> I agree - it is a long standing problem afaik
05:57:31 <juhp> epico: I like that better to be honest
05:58:02 <juhp> Fixing the rendering would be best
05:58:16 <epico> the problem of xchat is that it has some font render logics there, and not the same as pango.
05:58:29 <juhp> Yeah I thought so
05:58:42 <juhp> custom widget (buffer)
05:58:45 <juhp> I guess
05:58:48 <epico> I tried last time, but reverted...
05:59:00 <juhp> too slow, right?
05:59:26 <epico> yes, and have other problem when hover the mouse on the text.
05:59:54 <pravins> We have to propose Liberation fonts change proposal as well this tie.
05:59:55 <juhp> hmm
05:59:58 <pravins> time.
06:00:03 <juhp> okay
06:00:10 <pravins> I think, important work has been done in rawhide.
06:00:16 <juhp> who will do that?
06:00:33 <juhp> vishal_vr: you want to?
06:00:48 <vishal_vr> sure i will
06:01:02 <pravins> i will work with vishal_vr on it.
06:01:09 <juhp> cool
06:01:14 <pravins> paragan: did you also package liberation-narrow-sans to rawhide?
06:01:33 <paragan> nope
06:02:02 <pravins> ok, so it mean. We only have liberation sans, mono and serif in rawhide as of now with version 2
06:02:23 <epico> xchat assumes the character width is fixed, but pango has different character widths of different languages even with the same character.
06:02:51 <pravins> I am specifically asking for this change proposal, since if we do without announcing/public awareness we might get negative feedback.
06:03:24 <pravins> draft of change proposal: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Liberation_Fonts_Packaging_Multiple_Versions
06:03:48 <epico> tagoh: is it a way to force pango to use English language for all ASCII characters?
06:04:13 <epico> like PANGO_LANGUAGE?
06:04:31 <tagoh> I suppose there are no fixes for xchat/hexchat they are satisfied. particularly difficult to improve the rendering speed
06:04:42 <paragan> pravins, thanks for the proposal, lets work on it with vishal_vr and push it in f29
06:04:46 <mfabian> epico: That might render non-ASCII Latin characters ugly.
06:04:48 <epico> right
06:04:56 <pravins> paragan: yeah, we need to clean it further
06:05:03 <epico> mfabian: aha
06:07:27 <tagoh> epico: I suppose not
06:08:31 <paragan> I think we should move now
06:08:34 <fujiwarat> Probably I tried before https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=604149
06:08:57 <epico> okay, I see
06:09:16 <paragan> #topic No assignee issues
06:09:23 <paragan> #info #98: Hackathon during flock 2018 (pravins)
06:09:23 <paragan> #link https://pagure.io/i18n/issue/98
06:09:32 <epico> fujiwarat: thanks
06:09:41 <paragan> anyone got any topics to add here please do so
06:09:54 <pravins> May be, we can add on this ticket work on all planned for F29?
06:10:11 <pravins> As said last time, we are also planning to automate test cases for Fedora using OpenQA
06:10:56 * suanand thinks maybe try bodhi automated test plugin which would talk to transtats server over REST ..is this qualify for change request ?
06:10:59 <pravins> hmm, we still dont have any FAD page.
06:11:24 <pravins> suanand: i remember that was in our plan :)
06:11:49 <pravins> it mean, when new build will happen, it will check whether all the latest translation are pulled or not. Right?
06:12:06 <suanand> pravins: right.. now this can be done :)
06:12:39 <suanand> it requires development of bodhi plugin + one REST API at transtats
06:14:46 <juhp> suanand: sounds like a nice feature
06:15:23 <paragan> good
06:16:25 <paragan> I think around transtats we will get few work items easily for this hackfest
06:16:53 <suanand> thanks - let me see this from bodhi perspective (code, doc etc), and will discuss more in next meeting ?
06:17:01 <paragan> sure
06:17:02 <suanand> paragan: right ..
06:17:31 <paragan> moving to next ticket
06:17:32 <suanand> maybe (1) firing jobs from CLI   (2) bodhi plugin
06:17:59 <paragan> okay
06:18:24 <juhp> pravins: should we make a page?
06:18:37 <pravins> juhp: yeah, i just noticed no page yet :(
06:18:44 <juhp> seems Flock is open to project meetings etc
06:18:55 <pravins> yeah, this time different structure.
06:19:07 <juhp> Yeah it's evolving
06:20:30 <juhp> I think we more need a proposal than a page
06:21:10 <paragan> yes we can work on it
06:21:21 <juhp> yes
06:22:52 <pravins> proposal for flock itself?  or proposal for FAD?
06:23:13 <paragan> we will need to write draft proposal for flock
06:23:39 <juhp> For Flock I thought yes
06:24:30 <pravins> paragan: sure, lets work on it then.
06:24:42 <pravins> proposal == FAD plans ?
06:24:53 <pravins> may be need to go through it once. :)
06:25:09 <pravins> will work on it later
06:25:12 <juhp> I dunno if it is FAD but could be perhaps
06:25:20 <juhp> Maybe two things, hmm
06:25:29 <juhp> FAD and i18n session at Flock
06:25:36 <juhp> or is one sufficient?
06:26:09 <juhp> I think session is 1 hour this time?? iirc
06:26:09 <paragan> one is sufficient we can carry both
06:26:18 <juhp> oops minimum session
06:26:35 <paragan> I think CFP text says one day hackfest is also possible
06:26:54 <pravins> wow, that best. we want 1 days hackfest only
06:27:31 <paragan> its written as
06:27:32 <paragan> We invite you to submit proposals for talks (60 minutes) or workshops( 2 hours), or hackfests/FADs (half or full day) on topics of importance to the contributor community.
06:27:32 <juhp> "We invite you to submit proposals for talks (60 minutes) or workshops( 2 hours), or hackfests/FADs (half or full day) on topics of importance to the contributor community."
06:27:39 <juhp> ah lol
06:27:58 <pravins> best
06:28:09 <juhp> yeah at least half-day, one day would be good
06:28:21 <juhp> Though it may clash with other stuff
06:28:33 <pravins> yes
06:28:41 <juhp> Perhaps they will have hackfest day?
06:28:51 <pravins> i think good to have it either before flock or after flock.
06:29:03 <juhp> This is Flock :)
06:29:09 <pravins> definitely they will have, since same clash might happen with other project as well.
06:29:18 <pravins> yeah, its flock. Should be in flock itself :)
06:29:39 <juhp> But if it is workshop day then maybe less clashing
06:30:10 <pravins> lets propose for a day. I think idea is: other people can join hackfest and get idea about what is happening in particular project.
06:30:21 <pravins> during FAd that connection is missing
06:32:44 <paragan> cool
06:33:04 <paragan> so we need to collect all the work items and form a proposal
06:34:08 * suanand thinks lets collect ideas first and then decide on full or half day (to minimise clash :p)
06:34:18 <paragan> right
06:34:33 <pravins> 👍
06:35:47 <paragan> let's move
06:35:48 <paragan> #info #97: Replace comps language support groups with weak dependencies (petersen)
06:35:48 <paragan> #link https://pagure.io/i18n/issue/97
06:38:11 <juhp> I don't have any news on this one
06:38:39 <juhp> I think we need to scope the work
06:38:43 <paragan> okay np we can discuss on this in next meeting
06:38:59 <juhp> Or at least consider what to do for fonts... and IMEs
06:39:02 <juhp> etc
06:39:39 <juhp> Yeah I opened but I doubt how much time I have - will try to think at least
06:39:51 <juhp> I guess we could try some examples first
06:40:02 <paragan> we can replace with weak dependencies but only the default once right?
06:40:20 <paragan> I mean for any language we can pull one default font and one default ime
06:40:51 <paragan> what about other fonts or ime's for that language?
06:40:56 <juhp> why one?  Well it could be one
06:41:09 <juhp> I think more optional extra fonts etc
06:41:16 <juhp> I am thinking *
06:41:27 <paragan> I am thinking from langpacks weakdeps
06:41:39 <juhp> or are we saying the same thing? :)
06:41:54 <juhp> right
06:42:02 <paragan> when one installs langpacks-ja should he get all the Japanese fonts along with all the available Japanese IME's?
06:42:24 <juhp> probably not all
06:42:43 <juhp> but some at least
06:43:12 <juhp> So it could be two fold - post-installation of defaults and supplementing the default installed packages
06:43:52 <juhp> I think we need to test or consider the usability or UX too
06:44:06 <paragan> okay
06:44:16 <juhp> The current font auditing is probably a prerequisite too
06:44:25 <juhp> Let's move on if nothing more on this?
06:44:33 <paragan> sure
06:44:42 <paragan> #info #84: Fedora 26 Bug triaging (pnemade)
06:44:42 <paragan> #link https://pagure.io/i18n/issue/84
06:45:11 <paragan> https://da.gd/sFmG
06:45:18 <paragan> not much to worry here only 3 bugs
06:45:43 <paragan> lets move on
06:46:55 <paragan> #topic Open Floor
06:47:06 <paragan> anyone got anymore topics to discuss here?
06:47:33 <mfabian> typing-booster 2.0.0 is now in bodhi: https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2018-c0a8a66dc7
06:47:46 <epico> cool
06:50:27 <paragan> mfabian++
06:50:27 <zodbot> paragan: Karma for mfabian changed to 1 (for the f28 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
06:51:26 <paragan> thanks all who came to this meeting.
06:51:44 <paragan> #endmeeting