18:00:02 <nirik> #startmeeting Infrastructure (2015-11-19)
18:00:02 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Nov 19 18:00:02 2015 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:02 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'infrastructure_(2015-11-19)'
18:00:02 <nirik> #meetingname infrastructure
18:00:02 <nirik> #topic aloha
18:00:02 <nirik> #chair smooge relrod nirik abadger1999 lmacken dgilmore mdomsch threebean pingou puiterwijk pbrobinson
18:00:02 <nirik> #topic New folks introductions / Apprentice feedback
18:00:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'infrastructure'
18:00:02 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 dgilmore lmacken mdomsch nirik pbrobinson pingou puiterwijk relrod smooge threebean
18:00:09 <nirik> morning everyone.
18:00:09 * pingou here
18:00:14 * tflink here
18:00:18 * dotEast2015 here
18:00:19 <kushal> .hellomynameis kushal
18:00:20 <zodbot> kushal: kushal 'Kushal Das' <mail@kushaldas.in>
18:00:21 * pocock here
18:00:24 <odin2016> afternoon
18:00:29 <nirik> any new folks like to give a short one line introduction? or apprentices with questions or comments?
18:01:00 * pocock is in central Europe (will be at Dornbirn on Saturday for linuxday.at)
18:01:21 <dgilmore> hola
18:01:40 <nirik> welcome pocock. :)
18:02:09 * relrod here
18:02:33 <pryanka> Hi everyone
18:02:41 <pryanka> .hellomynameis pryanka
18:02:43 <zodbot> pryanka: pryanka 'Pryanka Giri' <pryankagiri@gmail.com>
18:02:53 <nirik> hello pryanka
18:02:57 <aldapetr> Hi everyone
18:03:02 <pryanka> I am Pryanka Giri,new volunteer joinee in QA
18:03:16 <smdeep> .hellomynameis smdeep
18:03:17 <zodbot> smdeep: smdeep 'Sudeep Mukherjee' <smdeep@gmail.com>
18:03:19 <pryanka> Hello nirik
18:03:41 <nirik> pryanka: great. This is the infrastructure meeting, but you are of course quite welcome here too. :)
18:04:04 <nirik> ok, lets go ahead and dive into some status/info. Everyone get ready...
18:04:14 <nirik> #topic announcements and information
18:04:15 <nirik> #info NO MEETING next week (2015-11-26) due to US holiday - everyone
18:04:15 <nirik> #info more ansible 2.0 testing, quashed a number of issues - kevin
18:04:15 <nirik> #info bkernel builders moved to Fedora 23 - kevin
18:04:15 <nirik> #info mdapi is now in production! - pingou
18:04:16 <nirik> #info Applied a number of CSI updates from apprentices - kevin
18:04:18 <nirik> #info Got a meetbot patch applied to require meetingname - kevin/odin
18:04:19 <decause> .hello
18:04:19 <zodbot> decause: (hello <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "hellomynameis $1".
18:04:20 <nirik> #info FMN and fedmsg.meta upgraded in production to accomodate new mdapi messages - ralph - https://apps.fedoraproject.org/notifications
18:04:23 <nirik> #info fedora-packages upgrade in production in progress now - ralph - https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel-announce%40lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/RMLV2CYKW4EEGDY3LTUBUOHM2DJ25BNJ/
18:04:23 <decause> .hello decause
18:04:24 <zodbot> decause: decause 'Remy DeCausemaker' <decause@redhat.com>
18:04:26 <nirik> hey decause
18:04:30 * threebean is here
18:04:32 * decause waves to nirik
18:04:37 <nirik> anything in that info folks would like to further note or add to/
18:04:38 <nirik> ?
18:04:56 <kushal> pingou++ for mdapi :)
18:04:57 <zodbot> kushal: Karma for pingou changed to 10 (for the f23 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
18:05:01 <decause> #info zodbot has a patch for requiring meeting topics :)
18:05:43 <nirik> yep. thanks odin2016
18:05:51 <nirik> Oh, another note:
18:05:56 <decause> #link https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/4952
18:06:03 <trishnag_> .hellomynameis trishnag
18:06:04 <zodbot> trishnag_: trishnag 'Trishna Guha' <trishnaguha17@gmail.com>
18:06:08 <nirik> #info rhel7.2 is out today. Will probibly do a mass update/reboot cycle next week.
18:06:16 <odin2016> While I was working on zod I noticed that things are in /usr/lib/python2.7, the documents noted /usr/lib/python2.6 ... i've updated it to reflect the actual as well.
18:06:26 <nirik> excellent.
18:06:28 <decause> odin2016++
18:06:28 <zodbot> decause: Karma for odin2016 changed to 1 (for the f23 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
18:06:42 <odin2016> mmm cookies.
18:06:47 * abompard waves around
18:06:48 <nirik> Apprentices _do_ have access to update the infra-docs repo... so if you see something confusing or wrong, ask to confirm, then fix it.
18:07:03 <puiterwijk> Cloud reboot is on Tuesday
18:07:07 <odin2016> yup. commited it this morning.
18:07:14 <pingou> puiterwijk: morning europe time? :)
18:07:48 <nirik> welcome trishnag_ You more interested in sysadmin or application development or just checking out the meeting?
18:07:57 <puiterwijk> pingou: morningish. About 2am my time :)
18:08:11 <pingou> puiterwijk: wrong plan :(
18:08:19 <kushal> lol
18:08:31 <nirik> puiterwijk: I'm thinking perhaps tuesday/wed also for other updates. thursday/friday are holidays in the us anyhow.
18:09:00 * linuxmodder late
18:09:08 * tflink has some taskotron rebuilding to do, will probably wait for a mass reboot if that's goign to happen next week
18:09:15 <aldapetr> Hi everyone, my name is Ales Petrovicky and Iam interested in sysadmin tasks
18:10:05 <nirik> aldapetr: great. Do find me after the meeting in #fedora-admin and I can add you to our apprentice group...
18:10:14 <trishnag_> nirik, I am new volunteer in fedora cloud testing. and also fixes some issues for bodhi,pkgdb2,tahrir :)
18:10:31 <nirik> trishnag_: great!
18:10:33 <aldapetr> nirik: ok
18:10:53 <nirik> we had one discussion item... actually I think we may want to morph it into another one...
18:11:15 <nirik> #topic support levels and requests for resources - kevin
18:11:24 <linuxmodder> morph time still a thing? :)
18:11:38 <nirik> so I sent a mail to the list a bit back talking about our RFE process and support levels.
18:11:52 <nirik> Not too much discussion about it on list sadly.
18:12:08 <linuxmodder> nirik,  may have missed it  personally
18:12:29 <puiterwijk> nirik: I have it on my to follow up list. Just have had a lot to deal with last week
18:12:31 <nirik> pocock was here to talk about fedrtc... but I think that plays into this same discussion.
18:12:57 <nirik> how "supported" would we want/need a fedrtc service to be and what process would we need to go thru to deploy it for that level of support.
18:13:03 <linuxmodder> fedrtc ?
18:13:15 <nirik> ok, might be everyone has been swamped (I know I have been)
18:13:22 <pocock> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/infrastructure%40lists.fedoraproject.org/message/QJQ3JTM33KBMF5RKIENETQFR2IO2FM46/
18:13:26 <puiterwijk> Me too. Maybe do this next week?
18:14:03 <pocock> fedrtc: migrating fedrtc.org to rtc.fedoraproject.org (like rtc.debian.org)
18:14:08 * nirik waits. You know perhaps we should look at varnish or memcached in front of hyperkitty to cache commonly pulled posts.
18:14:49 <pocock> puiterwijk: no meeting next week (see announcements)
18:14:57 <pingou> one issue I see about using the fp.o url is the ssl certs
18:14:57 <nirik> right, it would be the week after.
18:15:03 <puiterwijk> pocock: sorry. Week after
18:15:35 <pingou> could it be deployed on the cloud?
18:15:36 <pocock> to get the most engagement, it is ideal for the user to have identical SIP, XMPP and email addresses
18:15:52 <pocock> that implies having access to the fedoraproject.org cert, as both SIP and XMPP depend on it
18:16:13 <nirik> I'd be ok to run this as a less supported service and see how much use it gets... if we can adjust our RFE and support processes to have such a state.
18:16:31 <puiterwijk> pocock: in my personal opinion, that means the server would be under infra control. I would not be happy putting out cert on a box we don't control.
18:16:35 <nirik> and correctly communicate that to our users.
18:16:43 <pocock> it is very modular: postgresql, apache, TURN server, SIP server, XMPP server
18:16:50 <pocock> each can be supported at a different level
18:16:53 <pingou> puiterwijk: same here
18:17:00 <pocock> it could use an existing apache and postgresql instance
18:17:08 <abompard> nirik: actually there's something blocking here, but the server load is very low
18:17:27 <nirik> abompard: yeah, it still hasn't loaded here.
18:17:37 <nirik> perhaps too many requests for the same url and some locking thing?
18:17:43 <pocock> puiterwijk: I fully understand your position and don't intend to dispute that
18:17:58 <abompard> nirik: do you have stats on the DB server?
18:18:14 <nirik> pocock: is there any time pressure we should know about here? or just when we get it we get it?
18:18:31 <pingou> pocock: have you managed to involve more volunteers to help maintaining it?
18:18:37 * abompard does not want to pollute the meeting going on here
18:18:56 <pocock> what do you mean about time pressure, are you asking if I need to shut down fedrtc.org before some deadline?
18:19:11 <nirik> abompard: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/collectd/bin/index.cgi?hostname=db01.phx2.fedoraproject.org&timespan=3600&action=show_selection&ok_button=OK
18:19:13 <linuxmodder> I'd need to get schooled up on it but would be game for  maintaince team
18:19:29 <pocock> pingou: I had a few messages from people with individual feedback, one is helping with pen testing and another with packaging
18:19:55 <pingou> pocock: so how many would you say your team is to maintain it?
18:19:56 <nirik> pocock: right, I mean is there some reason we have to hurry or can we figure out support levels first
18:19:57 <puiterwijk> pocock: but do you have stats on how many people use it?
18:20:10 <pocock> I need to follow up with Prosody upstream, they are not Debian devs but they were happy to be quite involved in our support team around our Prosody service
18:20:21 <pocock> so they may be willing to offer similar help to Fedora
18:21:07 <pocock> one strategy that worked well in Debian was setting up separate mailing lists where upstreams could engage without having to see everything else that goes on in the project
18:21:39 <pingou> well hyperkitty that abompard is fixing, should help on this :)
18:21:40 <pocock> so we could try a fedora-rtc mailing list too and invite upstreams and other people to participate
18:22:04 <pocock> puiterwijk: 26 people signed up for it on fedrtc.org
18:22:08 <nirik> well, it sounds like it shouldn't be that hard to setup...
18:22:26 <nirik> it's just mostly if we consider the ongoing costs are worth the number of people using it.
18:22:33 <puiterwijk> pocock: how many people use it?
18:22:34 <pocock> on Debian, we got over 200 (about 20%), that was with several official announcements, newsletters, and having both XMPP and SIP
18:22:38 <linuxmodder> someone able to give me a 50k overview of fedrtc ?
18:22:43 <nirik> if we could get multi-user video working that might be a good selling point .
18:22:46 <nirik> a lot of teams want that
18:23:11 <pocock> one of the people who replied to me about packaging is working on Jitsi Meet packaging
18:23:28 <pocock> that is one multi-user video solution
18:23:29 <puiterwijk> nirik: that needs a media server on our end. Which routes all video and audio over us. Do we have capacity for that?
18:23:35 <nirik> yeah, saw that link, but haven't looked at it much yet
18:23:36 <pingou> nirik: we could consider it like: we deploy it and if people helping are drifting away, we will stop it
18:24:08 <pocock> puiterwijk: not all media needs to be relayed.  The ICE algorithm and TURN server help clients find out if they have direct connectivity and they only relay when necessary.
18:24:22 <linuxmodder> would  it  be feasible to  use  'nodes'  for crowd sourced laod balancing for that  nirik
18:24:23 <nirik> pingou: we could, but as it is now it would go thru a long RFE process and a lot of work, only to... drop it after a short time.
18:24:31 <pingou> nirik: true
18:25:04 <linuxmodder> have the core maintainers or whatnot  host those nodes
18:25:15 <nirik> linuxmodder: see pocock's last
18:25:32 <pocock> linuxmodder: hosting a TURN relay also requires a certificate
18:25:48 <puiterwijk> pocock: but how would you route multi user? Do all clients setup multiple p2p connections?
18:25:52 <pocock> but we could use a subdomain for the TURN relays and not a fedoraproject.org certificate
18:25:55 <linuxmodder> missed the TURN bit  makes sense now
18:25:59 <puiterwijk> As far as I know, multi user always required a media server
18:26:23 <pocock> multi-user usually requires a media server
18:26:41 <pocock> my recommendation is to start simple though
18:26:43 <puiterwijk> Do we have capacity for that? I bet not.
18:26:54 <pocock> multi-user video would be a second or third phase
18:27:01 <puiterwijk> pocock: but the simple case, 1-on-1 wasn't used last time we implemented it
18:27:18 <linuxmodder> wasnt used much or at all?
18:27:21 <pocock> there are some differences with fedrtc.org:
18:27:33 <pocock> - it federates (e.g. call debian.org or gnome.org users)
18:27:43 <pocock> - it is both SIP and XMPP
18:27:59 <pocock> - it supports WebRTC (so people don't need to configure any client/softphone)
18:28:02 <puiterwijk> Only gnome doesn't have this and doesn't want to
18:28:15 <pocock> gnome.org does have XMPP chat though, many other people too
18:28:44 <pocock> FSF and FSFE have XMPP, it can also work with gmail.com users
18:28:59 <puiterwijk> Gmail has federated xmpp off
18:29:16 <pocock> it works intermittently - I don't rely on it any more with gmail
18:29:19 <puiterwijk> But for chat people have irc... I think the main goal of this would be video conferencing. That would not be in xmpp.
18:29:40 <nirik> gmail xmpp is still around, they just have said it could go away anytime
18:30:12 <puiterwijk> nirik: no, the public federated xmpp part is officially dead. I asked an Google employee and it's not coming back
18:30:16 <pocock> I'm not trying to deprecate IRC, but XMPP is an interesting alternative that supports voice and video
18:30:30 <nirik> anyhow, as long as we dont have to decide anything quickly, I am ok with delaying this some so we can figure out our RFE/support setup because I think this will fit in a different bucket
18:30:46 <pocock> puiterwijk: an Oracle employee told me in 1997 (when I was a first year student) that Oracle would never support Linux
18:30:49 <nirik> puiterwijk: odd, my bitlbee is connected to it (I thought)
18:30:53 <pocock> gmail could change their minds
18:31:10 <aikidouke> from a totally I dont know what I am talking about sort of thing....I agree with nirik that video conf is a desirable/requested option by the community, is it possibly just to deploy the video part by itself?
18:31:19 <puiterwijk> nirik: that's the client part. That not federation with other domains server to server
18:31:28 <nirik> puiterwijk: ah, ok.
18:31:47 <kushal> pocock, What is a SIP address?
18:31:56 <pocock> it is like an email address
18:31:57 <pingou> kushal: voip
18:32:05 <pocock> e.g. sip:pocock@fedrtc.org
18:32:12 <aikidouke> sorry, missed the bit about video being 2/3 phase
18:32:12 <kushal> pingou, okay
18:32:18 <linuxmodder> foo.sip.bar
18:32:22 <kushal> pocock, okay
18:32:30 <pocock> you can install Lumicall on android and dial pocock@fedrtc.org
18:32:51 <linuxmodder> Session Initation Protocol  (things like skype  hangouts whatsapp all use sip
18:33:22 <linuxmodder> I use  redphone /linphone and hangouts personally
18:33:27 <pocock> there are other cool things on the horizon, e.g. http://ring.cx and http://tox.chat are decentralized like Bittorrent
18:33:33 <pocock> Linphone uses SIP
18:34:07 <pocock> another benefit of having a relatively stable SIP and XMPP service is that people can test packages against the service
18:34:13 <linuxmodder> *tox is  still WAYS and miles away from that pocock  I have it
18:34:30 <pocock> this increases the probability that packages in Fedora may be able to call each other
18:34:37 <pocock> e.g. calling from Ekiga to Linphone
18:34:51 <nirik> sure, although that cannot be done from the buildsystem or the like.
18:34:56 <linuxmodder> that would be  cool
18:35:09 <nirik> anyhow, shall we defer this a few weeks?
18:35:10 <pocock> even if the only people testing it are the package maintainers, it is a quality improvement
18:35:35 <linuxmodder> internal uses is at a min  a  qa  bonus
18:35:37 <nirik> pocock: might you be able to come back in a few weeks again? it's been great having you available to answer questions...
18:35:44 <pocock> I don't mind waiting a few more weeks, just let me know if I should file a formal RFR now or wait until another discussion
18:36:09 <pocock> I'm also happy to give soembody access to the existing server to see what is involved
18:36:22 <nirik> I would say wait.
18:36:43 <nirik> we may have a process that better fits something like this in a few weeks.
18:36:49 <pingou> nirik +1 thanks for your availability pocock :)
18:36:49 <pocock> ok
18:36:51 <nirik> thanks for the info!
18:36:59 <pocock> one other benefit:
18:37:18 <pocock> it is a cool thing to demo at events - I gave a demo at DUCC.it calling from fedrtc.org to debian.org
18:37:53 <linuxmodder> mattdm,  that would be  cool to add to your  cockpit  style  demo like at LISA
18:38:12 <nirik> #topic #topic Learn about: Learn about apprentices - nirik and aikidouke
18:38:28 <nirik> so, how did folks think the apprentice work day went? was it helpfull?
18:38:36 <nirik> anything we could do differently/better?
18:38:48 * pocock is away now
18:39:01 <aikidouke> it was very helpful to me, and great to meet and talk to new folks, but i'll let some others chime in first if they like
18:39:14 <odin2016> i think it was helpful, though i was working on something else.
18:39:34 * nirik tried to be around and helping folks. Still lots of other stuff going on tho
18:39:56 <nirik> theres a bunch more CSI stuff to merge from the list.
18:40:03 <nirik> thats great to get done
18:40:36 <smdeep> It was definitely helpful
18:40:40 <aikidouke> indeed - and talking through how I research things with some of the newer people was great
18:40:57 <smdeep> I would like to thank aikidouke
18:41:01 <aikidouke> we talked some about how hard it is to get started contributing
18:41:06 <aikidouke> ty smdeep
18:41:12 <smdeep> yw aikidouke
18:41:14 <squain> I found it a good and less scary way to get an 'in'
18:41:15 <nirik> cool. Yeah, great work talking with others and keeping people on track aikidouke
18:41:39 <aikidouke> in my mind it's like starting a new company, only you don't know where the bathroom is or what time lunch starts
18:41:46 <smdeep> :)
18:41:46 <threebean> :D
18:41:49 <nirik> indeed.
18:41:57 <aikidouke> you kind of have to "onboard" yourself to use an HR term
18:42:08 <aldapetr> :)
18:42:14 <pingou> aikidouke: nice analogy ^^
18:42:29 <aikidouke> I would like to do it again, maybe sometime after the F24 release
18:42:42 <threebean> sounds great
18:42:58 <kushal> aikidouke++
18:42:58 <zodbot> kushal: Karma for aikidouke changed to 5 (for the f23 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
18:43:02 <nirik> I think the biggest thing that people don't get is that we just don't have the resources to mentor everyone, so we kinda have to let the 'self starters' do things and ramp up themselves.
18:43:02 <aikidouke> ty
18:43:03 <smdeep> Why don't we do some easy tickets when you guys have the time
18:43:24 <nirik> yeah, I'd be happy to do it again sometime...
18:43:44 <smdeep> Would be most glad to attend
18:43:48 <aikidouke> smdeep, I'm startign to work on one soon, I can send you the ticket and share info with you
18:43:50 <odin2016> I like the idea of once a release. or maybe when there is a longer term quest that needs some traction.
18:44:44 <nirik> threebean: as a sidenote we talked about doing a docs week and/or a technical debt/bugfix week... any idea when we might want to try those?
18:45:14 <aikidouke> anyway, props to nirik for opening the door for this and encouraging the idea
18:45:29 <aikidouke> nirik++
18:45:29 <zodbot> aikidouke: Karma for kevin changed to 15 (for the f23 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
18:45:33 <nirik> absolutely no problem. I'm open to any ideas that get more people involved...
18:45:59 <nirik> aikidouke++ thanks for organizing apprentice work day!
18:46:14 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
18:46:18 <aikidouke> I'll put a reminder somewhere for myself to start planning the next one soon
18:46:19 <aikidouke> ty
18:46:20 <nirik> any items for open floor?
18:46:27 <nirik> reminder: no meeting next week.
18:47:18 <nb> hi
18:47:20 * nb hasn't made an infra meeting in a while :)
18:47:22 <nb> but i don't have anything for open floor
18:47:57 <nirik> hi nb. ;)
18:48:22 <pingou> o/ nb
18:48:55 <nirik> alright then. Thanks for coming everyone, and lets continue in #fedora-admin, #fedora-apps and #fedora-noc. :)
18:48:58 <nirik> #endmeeting