16:29:42 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG
16:29:42 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jan  7 16:29:42 2010 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:29:42 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:29:47 <nirik> #topic Init process
16:29:55 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
16:29:55 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
16:30:40 <nirik> who all is around for the irc support sig meeting?
16:30:53 * thomasj 
16:31:08 * Khaytsus scratches
16:31:19 * slipp3d thinks that i'm here
16:31:24 * Sonar_Guy 
16:31:37 <Khaytsus> Beuller?
16:31:37 * Evil_Sonar_Chick lurks
16:32:48 <nirik> ok, gonna be a short meeting today I think. I don't have much.
16:32:53 <nirik> #topic week in review
16:32:59 <zodbot> Announcement from my owner (stickster): Fedora Board public IRC meeting in ~30 minutes. Details: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/IRC (Note: temporary outage on wiki, sysadmins are investigating.)
16:33:18 <nirik> We don't have weekly stats this week, but it seems to have been a pretty typical yet busy week.
16:33:31 <nirik> @channelstats #fedora
16:33:32 <fedbot> nirik: On #fedora there have been 21982 messages, containing 881990 characters, 154949 words, 522 smileys, and 790 frowns; 254 of those messages were ACTIONs.  There have been 5296 joins, 449 parts, 4737 quits, 14 kicks, 56 mode changes, and 0 topic changes.  There are currently 597 users and the channel has peaked at 597 users.
16:33:40 <nirik> I reset that on jan1st.
16:34:03 * hiemanshu is here now
16:34:37 <EvilBob> Morning
16:34:50 <Khaytsus> Interesting we have so many users in today
16:35:03 <nirik> anyone have anything that they would like to point out from the last week? New issues/etc?
16:35:36 <hiemanshu> nirik: fedbot being a little broken
16:35:39 <EvilBob> Old Issues?
16:36:01 <Khaytsus> EvilBob: I'm sure that's on the agenda
16:36:33 <hiemanshu> and it banned someone in #fedora for no reason
16:36:44 <Khaytsus> hiemanshu: badwords?
16:36:46 <nirik> hiemanshu: sorry about that. Seems to have been a network lag issue...
16:36:50 <hiemanshu> Khaytsus: for flooding
16:36:52 <thomasj> It was the lag, and the one was quickly unbanned.
16:36:58 <nirik> it was a kick unless my logs are wrong?
16:37:03 * thomasj types to slow
16:37:17 <hiemanshu> nirik: ban
16:37:18 <Khaytsus> hiemanshu: Yes, that could always happen given network latencies etc..  Particularly when the network is under stress, as it has been for a few weeks now.
16:37:23 <EvilBob> thomasj has lUser Lag
16:37:47 <thomasj> lol
16:37:57 <hiemanshu> Khaytsus, nirik: Ah
16:38:28 <nirik> hiemanshu: odd. I will look again. Not sure how much we can do around it... but we can try and adjust.
16:38:47 <hiemanshu> nirik: IIRC he dint type much for a long time
16:39:10 <Khaytsus> hiemanshu: If you can recall the nick we can check logs
16:39:13 <nirik> hiemanshu: yeah, the way the flood plugin works it looks at messages as it gets them. If the network is clogged, it gets a bunch at once.
16:39:16 <thomasj> hiemanshu, he was typing a lot ;)
16:39:39 <thomasj> _diablo was the nick
16:39:43 <thomasj> or diablo_
16:39:48 <hiemanshu> _diablo
16:40:00 <hiemanshu> I remember him complaining in -social as well
16:41:14 <thomasj> Well, sh!t happens.
16:41:23 <thomasj> He's still alive ;)
16:41:35 <EvilBob> hiemanshu: Sorry about that, I will have to watch fr that more closely and deal with complainers promptly
16:41:56 <nirik> anyhow, I guess we should move on if nothing more from the week in review...
16:41:58 <hiemanshu> EvilBob: It was nothing wrong in it, since it was not his mistake, and you were sleeping at that time
16:42:08 <nirik> #topic Classroom classes
16:42:16 <nirik> We just had 3 classes this week...
16:42:29 <nirik> Logs should be up soon on them for any folks interested.
16:42:45 <nirik> Sugar activity packaging
16:42:56 <nirik> Basic Fedora troubleshooting tips
16:43:04 <nirik> Ambassador training
16:43:24 <nirik> If anyone wants to teach something moving forward, see the Classroom wiki page (once the wiki is back up).
16:43:50 * hiemanshu is planning for one within the next fortnight
16:44:15 <nirik> excellent.
16:45:59 <nirik> #topic Channel tone and off topicness
16:46:37 <nirik> Currently we are being pretty strict on the channel about people being off topic or non fedora related.
16:47:00 <nirik> This makes things nicer for supporting people, but does give the channel a less friendly air to some.
16:47:40 <nirik> Does anyone think we should change our off topic policies? Or have any ideas how we can be more friendly?
16:48:30 <hiemanshu> nirik: add a alias to fedbot to ask them politely to take off-topic to social
16:48:31 <EvilBob> I don't think it hurts the channel to just tune out a small group that is visiting rather than "throwing them out"
16:49:10 <hiemanshu> nirik: after about twice of them not listening, then make it a little strict
16:49:14 <Khaytsus> nirik: Have you observed folks being overly strict when there's no ongoing support in the channel?
16:49:42 <Khaytsus> I think one of our unsaid rules is as long as the discussion is reasonably close to topic and polite, it's okay to have in #fedora so long as it's not in the middle of support discussions.
16:49:56 <EvilBob> There are times a conversation will spiral a bit outside the support focus then come back
16:50:37 <EvilBob> Khaytsus: again, even if you are supporting someone you sure as hell can tune one or two or three out
16:50:54 <EvilBob> What's next only one issue at a time and take a number?
16:50:58 * stickster agrees that it's more important to handle if (1) it's negative in tone (i.e. grandma or the kids shouldn't be seeing it), or (2) is interfering with ongoing support
16:51:12 <Khaytsus> EvilBob: Sure, IRC isn't 1:1 but I don't want to try to help someone out of a sticky situation with 3-4 people rambling about poltics for example.
16:51:26 <stickster> Not everyone has the ability to tune out, because the list is highly populated with people who aren't necessarily experienced IRCers and used to doing so.
16:51:30 <slipp3d> +1 Khaytsus ...
16:51:53 <stickster> The idea should not be to make people get accustomed to our support venues; it should be to make our support venues useful for them
16:52:19 <EvilBob> there are times when a half dozen people are getting helped, how is that different than someone chattering with another user about their car?
16:52:21 <Khaytsus> I think there's a range of such things...  If it's quiet in the channel and it's a decent topic, sure..  If someone has hosed grub and someone starts polling about the best WM, that's different IMO
16:53:00 <Khaytsus> EvilBob: We also don't want anarchy, nor do we want to look like BOFH's.
16:53:38 <thomasj> +1
16:54:29 <EvilBob> As I stated yesterday, there is no chance for friendship in #fedora today
16:54:37 <nirik> Khaytsus: well, I think we are sometimes too strict with off topic... and we should relax a bit if there are not any help requests currently.
16:55:46 <EvilBob> the "community" piece of Fedora is then lacking, friendships are part of what holds a community together
16:56:05 <nirik> EvilBob: can folks connect and become friends in social?
16:56:20 <Khaytsus> nirik: I agree we are sometimes too strict..  Perhaps we can all try to refrain from ushering folks off to #fedora-social until a topic goes way off topic or an important support question arrises?
16:56:30 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: not at all, that is against the rules ;^)
16:56:40 <EvilBob> nirik: much smaller sample, relaxing things a bit over all in #fedora will help a lot.
16:57:11 <EvilBob> nirik: and will also then bring those people who see some fellowship in to -social
16:57:34 <EvilBob> the -social seed needs to be planted in #fedora I think
16:58:11 <EvilBob> rather than the first mention of a CHevy V8 "take ti to -social"
16:59:30 * nirik nods.
16:59:32 * Southern_Gentlem here
16:59:53 <nirik> I would be happy to try doing that moving forward... let a bit more offtopic happen if it's friendly and the channel isn't busy.
17:00:05 <nirik> Other folks thoughts?
17:01:31 <Southern_Gentlem> i have tried not to enforce offtopic unless it interfers with someone getting help
17:02:02 <nirik> thomasj? Khaytsus? thoughts?
17:02:22 <EvilBob> The opinion of what is interfering is the real issue
17:02:52 <EvilBob> Perhaps ask for someone elses opinion in -ops before pointing someone aside
17:03:05 <thomasj> nirik, a bit more offtopic (at least computer/software related) cant hurt.
17:03:31 <EvilBob> "peer review" at the time if you will
17:03:31 <hiemanshu> thomasj: but again, you dont want one someone whining
17:03:38 <Khaytsus> I'm agreeing, but I think we'll still want to politely dirct folks to socal when things get way off topic or when there are support needs.
17:03:40 <nirik> EvilBob: I don't think we should let fedora be a open mic night still...
17:03:52 <EvilBob> nirik: Not suggesting that at all
17:03:53 <thomasj> hiemanshu, what you mean?
17:04:15 <nirik> sure, if others are around to peer review it. ;)
17:04:21 <nirik> worth checking
17:04:52 <hiemanshu> thomasj: someone coming in and then talking about how difficult thunderbird is over Outlook Express
17:05:03 <EvilBob> nirik: but an example, your opinion of "get out and get in to -social" is different than mine
17:05:15 <EvilBob> the point they cross that line
17:05:24 * nirik nods.
17:05:28 <hiemanshu> nirik: its better to ask them to have their own channel, or just PM
17:05:37 <nirik> or it could be at least, depending on coccasion.
17:05:47 * EvilBob likes a fair amount of rope...
17:06:00 <nirik> occasion. Sheesh.
17:06:02 <EvilBob> Adds to the snap...
17:06:25 <thomasj> hiemanshu, well, yeah. Thats more like polling/trolling mostly. But i think we will check that from case to case.
17:06:36 <ammini> Is this meeting logged?
17:06:45 <Southern_Gentlem> yes
17:07:08 <hiemanshu> thomasj: Well there is a line to everything, and someone has to draw it now
17:07:10 <EvilBob> hiemanshu: I am done whining now... LOL
17:07:20 <Sonar_Gal> about time
17:07:27 <EvilBob> Sonar_Gal: You shut it
17:07:29 <EvilBob> LOL
17:07:36 * ammini missed the whine
17:07:48 <EvilBob> I can start again
17:07:49 <hiemanshu> EvilBob: you are done on -meeting not on -social though
17:07:54 <Sonar_Gal> EvilBob, Done
17:07:55 <hiemanshu> in**
17:08:04 <thomasj> hiemanshu, drawing a line is always complicated ;) Thats why i said, if we give more rope, we have to check *that* cases when it happens.
17:08:06 <nirik> Anyhow, any folks have anything further to add on this topic?
17:08:09 <hiemanshu> nirik: and also the fedbot alias would help
17:08:10 <EvilBob> I have nothing else for the meeting
17:08:20 <hiemanshu> thomasj: right
17:08:25 <ammini> Oh Yeah, how about fedbot kicking innocent people?
17:08:36 <EvilBob> ammini: No one is innocent
17:08:39 <Southern_Gentlem> ammini,  already covered
17:08:55 <Southern_Gentlem> crap happens when there is lag
17:08:55 <nirik> ammini: we talked about that. We are going to try and adjust it, but it's hard to do that with network issues.
17:09:28 <hiemanshu> Looks like wiki is back up
17:09:44 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
17:09:50 <EvilBob> Oh, Board Meeting...
17:09:50 <nirik> Anyone have anything for open floor?
17:10:27 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: the only thing I had was the removal of ops from roguedaemon, but he pretty much gave us the go ahead in his response.
17:10:49 <nirik> yes, thats already taken care of.
17:10:49 <Southern_Gentlem> +!
17:10:51 <Southern_Gentlem> 1
17:11:09 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik,  on all channels??
17:12:14 <nirik> Southern_Gentlem: all? fedora/fedora-ops/fedora-social per his request.
17:12:23 <nirik> (I don't think he was in social)
17:13:05 <Southern_Gentlem> ok not listed in social
17:13:10 <EvilBob> Hopefully at a later time he can return
17:13:27 <Sonar_Gal> What about websites? I don't remember if he was an op there or not
17:13:28 <nirik> agreed.
17:13:39 <Sonar_Guy> Hopefully he decides to return later on down the road.
17:13:43 <nirik> Sonar_Gal: no idea there. Check with chanserv.
17:14:01 <Sonar_Guy> Sonar_Guy: nope he is not an op in there
17:14:09 <thomasj> -classroom maybe
17:14:16 <EvilBob> Sonar_Guy: talking to yourself again?
17:14:18 <nirik> anyhow, any other topics for open floor?
17:14:37 <Sonar_Guy> EvilBob: yup
17:14:44 <EvilBob> Sonar_Guy: I do it all the time
17:15:04 <EvilBob> Thanks guys
17:15:35 * Sonar_Gal stomps on EvilBob's foot
17:15:39 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone!
17:15:45 <nirik> #endmeeting