16:00:01 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2010-05-20)
16:00:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu May 20 16:00:01 2010 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:02 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
16:00:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
16:00:02 <nirik> #topic init process
16:00:50 <nirik> who all is around for the meeting?
16:01:00 <DiscordianUK> I am
16:01:01 <h4xordood> present :)
16:01:05 <fenris02> 
16:02:01 <nirik> ok, lets go ahead and get started...
16:02:05 <nirik> #topic Week in revieww
16:02:13 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
16:02:25 * nirik sees he is not in the top 25 for once. ;)
16:02:35 * zcat here
16:02:42 <nirik> Anyone have anything they would like to point out from the last week?
16:02:51 <DiscordianUK> Blimey
16:03:29 <DiscordianUK> Still a lot of newbies from Ubuntu this week I think
16:03:57 <zcat> some sort of fallout?
16:04:13 <h4xordood> well i am also you can say new bee! :)
16:04:16 <nirik> I think we will see a lot of folks coming in for f13.
16:04:33 <nirik> which brings us to the next topic...
16:04:37 <DiscordianUK> Must be the new screen stuff in Ubuntu as well and we are the new shiny distro
16:04:37 <nirik> #topic F13 release
16:04:45 <nirik> @f13release
16:04:46 <fedbot> nirik: 4 days, 22 hours, 55 minutes, and 14 seconds
16:05:06 <nirik> we will likely have a busy channel next week and leading up to it.
16:05:25 <DiscordianUK> So the new feeding frenzy begins
16:05:35 <nirik> Remember to point folks who just want to party and have fun to #fedora-social for the release party, so we can keep helping folks in #fedora.
16:05:40 <fenris02> versionitis has already started.
16:05:49 <zcat> any change from our last policy on people posting leaky mirror URLs?
16:05:51 <nirik> can anyone think of anything else we should do to get ready for release?
16:06:34 <DiscordianUK> The issue I think we're already seeing is Nvidia
16:07:06 <nirik> I think the policy was fine last time... as I recall we pointed people to the SHA256SUM files and told people to make sure they verified correctly before trusting any leaky mirror.
16:07:26 <zcat> nirik, right-o. no kicking.
16:07:29 <DiscordianUK> That's a sound policy to continue with
16:08:03 <nirik> unless they are disruptive about it...
16:08:15 <nirik> posting it all the time, bothering people trying to get help, etc.
16:08:15 * DiscordianUK nods
16:08:31 <nirik> we also have a new feature for mirrors thanks to mdomsch. ;)
16:08:31 <h4xordood> nirik: i dont know if thats related or not yesterday i downloaded fedora-kde beta RC3
16:08:37 <nirik> .mirroradmins mirrors.tummy.com
16:08:38 <mharris> sounds sensible... I always thought it was wrong to ban people for posting leaked mirrors.
16:08:40 <zodbot> nirik: Mirror Admins of mirrors.tummy.com: jafo kevin
16:08:50 <mharris> Not like it is illegal warez or something :)
16:08:53 <h4xordood> but md5 didnt matched
16:09:06 <fenris02> h4xordood, md5 is not used.
16:09:07 <nirik> h4xordood: fedora doesn't use md5. ;) Did you check it with sha256sum?
16:09:09 <DiscordianUK> This isn't the place h4xordood
16:09:21 <h4xordood> oops
16:09:21 <mharris> If someone posted links to stuff that was actually malware or similar, then that'd be different of course.
16:09:25 <h4xordood> sorry!
16:09:29 <nirik> so, if we see a leaky mirror, we cna look up admins and notify them...
16:09:37 * DiscordianUK nods
16:09:48 <DiscordianUK> What time is the release ?
16:09:56 <mharris> Do you guy's run automated leaky mirror scripts?
16:10:01 <nirik> mharris: there was a release where there was a leaked fedora that was tampered with... f7ish I think?
16:10:09 <fenris02> mharris, someone does, dont recall who
16:10:10 <nirik> Yeah, I have one here...
16:10:21 <nirik> DiscordianUK: 10am EDT tuesday...
16:10:28 <mharris> nirik: I wouldn't be surprised if that happens all the time, but I'd be more surprised if it were on an official mirror
16:10:29 * mdomsch is fine with mirror leaks - let the folks who are most interested get the bits a little early
16:10:39 <mharris> mdomsch: +1
16:10:40 <nirik> DiscordianUK: but usually things open before then.
16:10:48 <DiscordianUK> yes indeed
16:10:59 <nirik> mdomsch: yeah, as long as they don't mind getting mobbed BW wise if a lot of people grab from them...
16:11:09 <mharris> I remember downloading RHL from leaky mirrors 2 weeks ahead of time in the late 90s :)
16:11:24 <DiscordianUK> Always slow on day 0
16:11:48 <mharris> fenris02: I have a leaky mirror scan script that I got from someone and modified a few times..  Haven't used it in a year or so though.
16:11:49 <nirik> anyhow, can anyone think of anything else for release day?
16:12:09 <zcat> mharris, was from me, iirc. :) ...
16:12:16 <dcr226> yes, would it be worth adding to the topic to reflect the fact that mirrors might be slow on day 0?
16:12:20 <zcat> nirik, when do we call the shaman to allay fears about the number 13?
16:12:27 <mharris> zcat: now that you mention it, I think it might have been :)
16:12:35 <h4xordood> i just want to know about this leaky mirrors
16:12:40 <zcat> mharris, ... fedora-leakscan.sh:  http://fpaste.org/7Ori/
16:12:46 <nirik> zcat: ha.
16:13:01 <nirik> dcr226: well, I think people will realize that, and the topic is already pretty darn full. ;(
16:13:17 <DiscordianUK> and on one reads it anyway
16:13:22 <DiscordianUK> no one
16:13:35 <dcr226> ok, just figure there will be a large amount of issues on that in #fedora :-/
16:13:46 <fenris02> nobody reads the /topic in -devel either.  it's short.
16:13:58 <DiscordianUK> At least this time there isn't the problem with RawHide
16:14:10 <mharris> zcat: yep, my script starts out with the same first lines so... :)
16:14:17 <nirik> ok, anything further on release day? or shall we move on?
16:14:37 <fenris02> DiscordianUK, still happened though.  folks assume rawhide=f13 still.  they're not correct of course, but that hardly matters
16:14:44 <mharris> I remember a while back, there was a crazy ass fast mirror.....  http://redhat.newaol.com
16:14:48 <zcat> DiscordianUK, right, rawhide repos are a separate package now
16:14:55 <DiscordianUK> Yeah fenris02
16:14:57 <DiscordianUK> Yup
16:15:07 <mharris> dunno whatever happened to that one, but it was insane fast and held up even after the link got thrown around the mailing lists for a few days :)
16:15:29 <nirik> #topic root ban
16:15:37 <nirik> so, some history first:
16:15:45 <nirik> we have a ban in place for users with a 'root' ident.
16:15:59 <nirik> A while back this would redirect them to a channel like '#dont-irc-as-root'
16:16:06 <nirik> and have info there about why it's a bad idea, etc.
16:16:12 * mharris rolls his eyes
16:16:16 <nirik> When freenode moved to a new ircd that went away.
16:16:28 <nirik> So, currently we just have a ban... it won't let them join at all.
16:16:37 <nirik> I would like to propose we remove this ban...
16:16:47 <mharris> +1 on removing the ban
16:16:50 <nirik> Sure it's a bad idea to irc as root
16:16:51 <autopsy> +1
16:16:59 <zcat> nirik, +1   (yes - change it to a fedbot kickban with a reason)
16:17:08 <dcr226> is there a fs.o write up on the issues with irc root?
16:17:23 <fenris02> dcr226, no, it's too long and would change frequently
16:17:40 <nirik> dcr226: well, it leaves you open to vulnerabilities in your client more so than if you were using a user...
16:17:49 <h4xordood> but why it is banned if user logined from root ?
16:17:53 <nirik> but I don't know that any linux clients have open vulnerabilities like that anymore.
16:17:54 <mharris> Bans should be explicitly to prevent harm to the channels themselves, not to try to forcibly protect users from themselves.  :)
16:18:00 <dcr226> indeed, just wondering if in the place of a ban we could point someone to a default info page
16:18:12 <fenris02> nirik, xchat
16:18:23 <h4xordood> though if user logged in from normal user is still vulnerable
16:18:34 <mharris> banning "Admin" would probably have a greater effect in any case :)
16:18:39 <nirik> dcr226: yeah, perhaps a nice page about doing anything as root... ie, only use privs when you need them, etc.
16:18:44 <fenris02> h4xordood, not really
16:18:54 <nirik> no such page really exists that I know of currently.
16:19:05 <dcr226> nirik, thats what I thought, maybe just an overarching - "dont do it"  page
16:19:18 <dcr226> aimed at the n00b, without going into specifics
16:19:30 <DiscordianUK> maybe we need one on inter alia root vs su and sudo
16:19:49 <nirik> I'd love to see one if some folks want to write one up.
16:20:02 <dcr226> i'm happy to do some reasearch and make a start
16:20:25 <fenris02> eek. "su -c" vs. "sudo" is an argument i dont want to be involved in ... they have differences to be sure, but too many religious issues surround it
16:20:29 * dcr226 spelling #fail
16:20:36 <DiscordianUK> we're seeing lots of people from Ubuntu who sudo rather than su
16:20:52 <nirik> well, we do have some good guides on sudo at fedorasolved...
16:20:52 <dcr226> DiscordianUK, good way of spotting them tho eh?
16:21:01 <DiscordianUK> yeah tis
16:21:03 <fenris02> DiscordianUK, nothing wrong with that, but sudo config file is blank by default
16:21:05 <mharris> nirik: yeah, a proactive positive energy page on the pros of using networked client software as non-root, and illustrating examples of why using things like that as root are a bad idea
16:21:15 <mharris> With an emphasis of the tone on a positive note.
16:21:18 <DiscordianUK> exactly fenris02
16:21:27 <nirik> mharris: +1
16:21:40 <dcr226> mharris, +1
16:21:57 <mharris> not just for IRC of course
16:22:02 <fenris02> we should update the sudo page to include things like this however - %wheel  ALL=(ALL)       TYPE=unconfined_t ROLE=unconfined_r     ALL
16:22:07 <DiscordianUK> indeed
16:22:13 <nirik> ok, so any objections to me removing the root ban then?
16:22:21 <DiscordianUK> not from me
16:22:31 <mharris> looks unanimous
16:22:43 <dcr226> based on a decent way of informing n00bs not to do it, no
16:22:47 <mharris> Now we can all finally start using IRC as root again!
16:22:53 <mharris> :)
16:22:53 <dcr226> Heh.
16:23:06 <zcat> /exec -o shutdown -r now yay
16:23:08 <fenris02> mharris, just for you, i'll channel billybob.
16:23:17 <mharris> haha
16:23:28 <nirik> Great.
16:23:35 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
16:23:41 <nirik> anyone have anything for open floor?
16:24:07 <fenris02> pros/cons for any other distro do not belong in #fedora -
16:24:15 <dcr226> fenris02, +1
16:24:18 <fenris02> they are all different, each has their perk.  just not in #fedora
16:24:22 <DiscordianUK> Indeed +1
16:24:28 <dcr226> besides, it results in a poll
16:24:35 <mharris> fenris02: +1 even though I don't often go in #fedora much these days ;)
16:24:37 <fenris02> very much so dcr226
16:24:39 <nirik> yeah. I usually tell such people to try them out with a live media.
16:25:14 <fenris02> seen a good number of other distro users pop in and say "well, $foo does it this way and it is better" blah blah blah
16:25:18 <DiscordianUK> Is the Live CD back to CD size now?
16:25:21 <mharris> fenris02: possibly expanded to include "what's the difference between $distro and $udistro"
16:25:24 <dcr226> tighter control on trolling maybe, not sure how thats to be achieved though
16:25:28 <nirik> DiscordianUK: the desktop f13 one? yes.
16:25:35 <DiscordianUK> Cool
16:25:41 <fenris02> mharris, that is blatant polling, yes
16:25:51 <DiscordianUK> It is yes
16:25:54 <dcr226> but the userbase is possibly about to increase, on release
16:26:06 <DiscordianUK> Undoubtedly
16:26:13 <mharris> unless both distros are Fedora releases, and then the answer is simply an integer
16:26:27 <dcr226> mharris, it is, but will still end in a poll
16:26:32 <fenris02> mharris, bigger is better, m'kaaaay?
16:26:37 <dcr226> with benchmarks such as "faster" and "better"
16:27:05 <nirik> Pointing folks to the Overview page is also sometimes helpfull.
16:27:05 <mharris> Reword the polling rule to...  "If you start a poll, we will put your head on a pole."
16:27:18 <dcr226> Heh.
16:27:33 <fenris02> sadly, "polling" does not translate well to other languages, so there is some confusion there.
16:27:48 <fenris02> where 'other' includes "the queens english" for example.
16:27:58 <DiscordianUK> It wasn't clear to me when I first joined #fedora
16:28:00 <mharris> yeah, I dunno if there is a more universally understood word
16:28:21 <mharris> But I don't think lack of understanding of an English word gives the right to abuse a rule.  Learn the words first.
16:28:21 <nirik> yeah, it's not an easy thing to get across to some.
16:28:25 <dcr226> there are a few repeat troll offenders, who might alienate migrations from other oses, which is a concern if it continues
16:28:28 <fenris02> DiscordianUK, if you have an alternative word that works better, i'm all ears
16:28:29 <mharris> English channel...  learn English
16:28:41 <DiscordianUK> I don't I'm afraid
16:28:58 <nirik> perhaps we could change it to 'opinion polling' ?
16:29:10 <fenris02> nirik, that may work
16:29:13 <mharris> Not all mention of other OSs should be considered trolling though either
16:29:18 <dcr226> "starting or participating in a poll may lead to a ban"
16:29:24 <mharris> Hard to draw the line mind you.
16:29:38 <nirik> this also gets back to 'no one reads the topic'. ;)
16:29:54 <DiscordianUK> Well no sometimes it's useful background to know what OS they know
16:30:03 <fenris02> nirik, no, but i quote it :)
16:30:13 <mharris> nirik: I've always felt that the longer the topic is, the more items it contains, the more people ignore it.
16:30:29 <nirik> yep
16:30:34 <fenris02> mharris, doesnt explain -devel ... the topic cannot be much shorter.
16:30:35 <dcr226> it is, DiscordianUK  - my concern is around people moving to fedora, arriving in #fedora for the first time to walk into one of the trolling arguments we have seen quite a bit of
16:30:36 <DiscordianUK> But the "Isb Ubuntu better than Fedora" thing is definitely polling
16:30:41 <DiscordianUK> Is even
16:30:48 <mharris> /topic <Actual channel overview/purpose> | <single URL to a page that gives all rules and other information>
16:30:54 <nirik> we could add a 'no polling' section to: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/IRC_Etiquette and point people to that.
16:31:03 <mharris> Just personal opinion, influenced by Joel Spolsky
16:31:29 <fenris02> that may work.  you'll do the honors mharris ?  there's 2$ in it for you.
16:31:29 <nirik> and or https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Participants
16:32:22 <nirik> ha.
16:32:29 <mharris> fenris02: ok, the new topic is /topic "Fedora end user support and discussion forum | http://www.fedoraproject.org/FedoraIRCsupport
16:32:38 <nirik> anyhow, anything concrete we need to do here? or shall we end the meeting?
16:32:38 <h4xordood> nirik: i think actually everyone should read those net etiquette
16:32:45 <mharris> fenris02: is that $2 CAD or USD?
16:32:45 <DiscordianUK> err too wide mharris
16:32:57 <h4xordood> i have been in such position
16:33:05 <mharris> DiscordianUK: http://fedoraproject.org/FedoraIRCsupport
16:33:08 <fenris02> mharris, CAD ... it's not like i wanted to pay you real money
16:33:12 <DiscordianUK> make that F11 ,F12 and F13 end user support
16:33:22 <mharris> fenris02: good stuff
16:33:28 <DiscordianUK> whilst F11 is still supported
16:33:33 <mharris> fenris02: I take Canadian Tire money if you have some to get rid of
16:33:54 <mharris> DiscordianUK: there goes that topic inflation again... ;)
16:34:06 <mharris> that can be on the web page
16:34:18 <DiscordianUK> Hmmm
16:34:33 <dcr226> supported versions need to be in the topic imo
16:34:40 <DiscordianUK> +1
16:34:42 <nirik> I'd be ok with doing that, but I think we need to reorg the wiki pages before we do so
16:34:45 <dcr226> especially with amazon using F8
16:34:49 * Southern_Gentlem 
16:34:56 <fenris02> dcr226, or any vps
16:34:59 <DiscordianUK> indeed
16:35:07 <dcr226> fenris02, yep
16:35:16 <fenris02> erm, wrong channel for that :)
16:35:44 <DiscordianUK> and F11 is still supported
16:35:50 <mharris> or could even be shortened to "Fedora 12, 13 support and discussion | http://fedoraproject.org/FedoraIRCsupport"
16:35:57 <zcat> -1 on topic change. i like big topics, and i cannot lie.
16:36:11 <mharris> Although I might add a "Please read: " in front of the URL
16:36:18 <dcr226> mharris, +1
16:36:40 <fenris02> ~100 chars max for readability.
16:36:41 <zcat> FREE FREE READ:
16:36:48 * nirik is fine with moving to that, but again, I think someone needs to clean up/reorg/fix all the wiki pages before we do that.
16:37:00 <mharris> If it don't fit in my xchat topic bar, on a 24" display, nobody will read it.
16:37:13 <DiscordianUK> true mharris
16:37:18 <mharris> doh
16:37:19 <Southern_Gentlem> they wont read it anyways
16:37:23 <mharris> did I change the topic?
16:37:26 <mharris> LOL, oops
16:37:28 <DiscordianUK> They never do
16:37:36 <mharris> that was an accident :)
16:37:41 <Southern_Gentlem> but if it is in the topic we can point them there
16:37:53 <nirik> mharris: no biggie. it will revert when we close the meeting.
16:38:12 <fenris02> 73-90 says the study.
16:38:37 <mharris> It was supposed to be //topic :)
16:38:59 <fenris02> Southern_Gentlem, no, but if the entire topic fits on the screen width, then it's easier to point at.  the www page can be nicely formatted / organized / sorted /etc..
16:39:12 <Southern_Gentlem> all the above
16:39:27 <mharris> Southern_Gentlem: if they don't read it in the /topic, it's not any different from not reading it on a web page though, and in either case, they can be pointed to it
16:39:46 <mharris> The advantage of the web page over the topic, is that many people in particular newbies, may not even know about an IRC channel topic
16:39:56 <mharris> But a URL pasted to them... that, they can grok.
16:40:12 <Southern_Gentlem> mharris all the above
16:40:28 <nirik> right.
16:40:44 <nirik> so, if folks want to work on this, please do, and we can revisit when wiki pages are ready?
16:40:46 <mharris> In theory anyway, it might give a better newbie end user experience
16:41:10 <mharris> if not, they can still be thumped!
16:41:12 <mharris> :)
16:41:50 <DiscordianUK> The wiki pages will need changes anyway
16:42:30 * nirik will close out the meeting in a few here if nothing else comes up... unless people would like to continue this discussion more.
16:42:51 <mharris> we need nirik or someone to add functionality to fedbot for keeping track of lost revenue due to meetings like that clock I posted earlier :)
16:43:01 <mharris> http://www.tomsguide.com/us/clock-counts-money-wasted,news-6831.html
16:43:15 <nirik> mharris: I would, but I am in a meeting. ;)
16:43:16 <mharris> or zodbot
16:44:08 <nirik> Thanks for coming everyone. :)
16:44:11 <nirik> #endmeeting