16:01:29 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2010-05-27)
16:01:29 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu May 27 16:01:29 2010 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:01:29 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:01:29 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
16:01:29 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
16:01:29 <nirik> #topic init process
16:01:30 <DiscordianUK> hahaha
16:03:02 <Southern_Gentlem> the previous meeting was <juhp> welcome to the weekly i18n meeting
16:03:21 <nirik> yeah.
16:03:26 <nirik> I can clean that up after the meeting.
16:03:30 <Southern_Gentlem> yep
16:03:32 <nirik> ok, who all is here for the meeting?
16:03:35 <fenris02> 
16:03:41 <Southern_Gentlem> 
16:03:43 * plarsen holds up hand
16:03:45 * MooDoo is lurking
16:03:50 <DiscordianUK> I am
16:03:53 * muep 
16:05:09 <nirik> ok, I guess lets go ahead and get started then.
16:05:18 <nirik> #topic F13 release day retrospective
16:05:30 <nirik> So, how did we do for release day and surroundings?
16:05:31 * zcat 
16:05:37 <fenris02> upgrades suck.
16:05:54 <MooDoo> f11 to 13 isn't nice :)
16:06:03 <DiscordianUK> haha
16:06:08 <thebeardisred> hell, 12 to 13 isn't nice
16:06:09 <Southern_Gentlem> yum upgrades and preupgrades have reported problems
16:06:15 <DiscordianUK> Yep
16:06:16 <fenris02> many preupgrade issues.  many post-upgrade cleanup problems
16:06:25 <nirik> channel seemed busy, but not too insane from what I saw.
16:06:27 <fenris02> yum upgrade is a trainwreck
16:06:33 <Southern_Gentlem> about the same we see for every release
16:06:37 <DiscordianUK> Lots of people trying yum upgrade
16:06:37 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
16:06:56 <nirik> huh. wonder why yum upgrade is so popular. I didn't see too many doing it for 11->12.
16:07:02 <fenris02> crumb!  where is that other guy that was #1 for a few weeks?
16:07:03 <thebeardisred> one problem i have seen is that f12 STILL deployed a 200MB boot volume, which is fine for RH/CentOS
16:07:13 <thebeardisred> but if you're going to store everything for preupgrade
16:07:16 <nirik> thebeardisred: yep.
16:07:17 <thebeardisred> things can get a bit tight
16:07:24 <nirik> thebeardisred: Please read https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_use_PreUpgrade and see https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F12_bugs#Issues_when_upgrading_from_previous_releases
16:07:31 <fenris02> thebeardisred, 200M /boot _should_ fail with preupgrade
16:07:35 <MooDoo> wasn't that why the F13 boot partition is now 500mb?
16:07:35 <nirik> not sure if we need a f13 common on that as well.
16:07:41 <fenris02> thebeardisred, i mean, it should error and not even go far
16:08:02 <plarsen> nirik: if you google f13 yum upgrade, you get to a pretty nice wiki that suggests using "yum upgrade". There's no words there for caution or pointing you to the "right" way to do it.
16:08:04 <nirik> anyhow, we should ask folks to report bugs on it when they find them.
16:08:10 <thebeardisred> i'll try and get details from a few folks and possibly a sosreport
16:08:32 <nirik> wow... it's a fedoraforum thread. ;(
16:08:33 <plarsen> nirik: strike that. Things changed ;)
16:08:36 <fenris02> plarsen, yuck. that is the least suggested method :/
16:08:42 <plarsen> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/YumUpgradeFaq
16:08:51 <plarsen> first hit on google search fedora upgrade instructions
16:08:51 <nirik> plarsen: I get http://fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=237227 here
16:09:03 <Southern_Gentlem> thebeardisred, The recommended installation method is with a boot media with the Anaconda installer as detailed in the Installation Guide.
16:09:03 <Southern_Gentlem> PreUpgrade is a slightly different upgrade method where the all packages are downloaded before the system is rebooted into the Anaconda installer.
16:09:20 <Southern_Gentlem> Use caution
16:09:20 <Southern_Gentlem> Although upgrades with yum have been tested and work, live upgrades are not recommended by the Fedora Project. If you are not prepared to resolve issues on your own if things break, you should probably use the recommended installation methods instead.
16:09:28 <nirik> plarsen: yeah. That does have some cautions on it...
16:09:31 <fenris02> plarsen, at least the fp.o page says look at the install guide and preupgrade
16:09:38 <Southern_Gentlem> thebeardisred,  those are the first things on the yum upgrade page
16:09:44 <plarsen> nirik: right - pretty sure I didn't see them on Tuesday ;)
16:09:57 <Southern_Gentlem> plarsen,  they have been there for years
16:10:16 <DiscordianUK> The other factor we're seeing is the Nvidia one
16:10:40 <fenris02> DiscordianUK, right.  the beta nv driver appears to work, but the rpmfusion released on is a crapshoot
16:10:52 <thebeardisred> Souther_Gentlem: i understand, and have cautioned everyone that i know that ymmv & not to look a gift horse in the mouth
16:10:55 <nirik> we should try and get folks to try nouveau out...
16:11:04 <DiscordianUK> I have been trying
16:11:06 <fenris02> nirik, "3d is too slow"
16:11:18 <nirik> I would suggest folks change any shortcuts to suggest that before the binary only non free one.
16:11:28 <nirik> fenris02: well, we don't know until they try. ;) Some it will stick with.
16:11:33 <plarsen> nirik: I agree. I have to use the commercial on f12 - but f13 release defaults and "just works" with noveau ... so I plan to switch
16:11:43 <DiscordianUK> But lots of people are coming into the channel having installed nvidia.com's binary
16:11:45 <fenris02> nirik, right, just quoting what i've seen from folks that try nouveau first
16:11:50 <nirik> yeah.
16:12:00 <nirik> so, perhaps it should be:
16:12:14 * Southern_Gentlem directs ALL to http://fedorasolved.org/video-solutions/remove-nvidia-installer
16:12:48 <nirik> if you installed from nvidia.com: uninstaller url, then install mesa-drivers-exper and try nouveau, if that does not meet your needs, nvidia fedorasolved url
16:13:03 <fenris02> nirik, "tldr"
16:13:27 <nirik> yeah, always a problem. We can split it to 3 things. ;)
16:14:13 <nirik> anyhow... any other common/upgrade issues to address?
16:14:43 <fenris02> the nv fs.o page needs updating.  f13 repo does not have all 3 versions
16:14:56 <nirik> the drop the 173* one?
16:15:27 <fenris02> nirik, 96xx and 173xx are not found there (yet?) so only the recent one 195xx is there.
16:15:33 <fenris02> no drivers are in -testing yet.
16:15:58 <nirik> ok. I wonder if thats just temp, or the older ones no longer work.
16:16:05 <nirik> we can inquire.
16:16:10 * fenris02 nods
16:16:31 <nirik> anyone have anything else on release day/week? anything we can improve or note?
16:16:46 <plarsen> Does anyone have numbers on whether people are using the DVD or CD distributions?
16:16:51 <DiscordianUK> It went very well for a release
16:16:58 <nirik> I'd once again like to point everyone to take a few minutes to read over http://freenode.net/catalysts.shtml and strive to live by it. ;)
16:17:27 <Southern_Gentlem> plarsen,  torrents.fedoraprojects.org:6969
16:17:33 <zcat> nirik, spoleeba notes that f13 may be the first release where 64bit usage beats 32bit. would like to see the new stats.
16:17:34 <nirik> lets try and avoid getting in long discussions about things that increase the channel Temperature... like what ppc devices exist or the like. ;)
16:17:39 <Southern_Gentlem> plarsen,  http://torrents.fedoraprojects.org:6969
16:18:00 <nirik> plarsen: I expect we should hear more in a week or so...
16:18:22 <plarsen> Thanks - I just noticed my seeder here barely had any hits on the CD. Most of it was DVD only
16:18:24 <fenris02> overwelmingly DVD when compared with cd-set
16:18:24 <nirik> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics
16:18:49 <plarsen> Those numbers seems to confirm that ...
16:19:02 <Southern_Gentlem> http://torrents.fedoraproject.org:6969/
16:19:13 <plarsen> Southern_Gentlem: right :) I fixed the "spell bug"
16:19:18 * nirik notes torrents may be lower than previous releases as they were not advertised as much from the base download page
16:19:42 <fenris02> nirik, from yesterdays convo, looks like it might be added in the bottom right corner soon
16:19:55 <Southern_Gentlem> and of course people like me download the dvd and the use jigdo to create the cds
16:19:56 * nirik nods.
16:20:04 <plarsen> Right - that would be an issue to address. The get-fedora pages are very very nice, but no link to torrents :)(
16:20:21 <fenris02> oh, by "soon" i guess i meant "already done"
16:20:29 <nirik> ha. nice.
16:20:36 <nirik> ok, shall we move on then?
16:20:46 <fenris02> plarsen, bottom-right has get-fedora-all which has that
16:20:56 <plarsen> fenris02: that link goes to http://localhost:5000/get-fedora-all
16:20:58 <plarsen> Fails :(
16:21:18 <nirik> oops.
16:21:22 <fenris02> plarsen, #fedora-website report is in order
16:21:33 <mock> plarsen: you didn't install all those torrents locally?
16:22:11 <plarsen> mock: I don't have port 5000; but that's beside the point. People cannot find the .torrent files to start the seed
16:22:19 <nirik> plarsen: yeah, websites, or I just mentioned it in admin.
16:22:27 <plarsen> regardless that "google fedora torrent" gets you there.
16:22:29 <nirik> it's a bug. needs fixing.
16:23:02 <nirik> ricky is fixing it. ;)
16:23:06 <nirik> ok, moving along...
16:23:13 <nirik> #topic root ban... denied
16:23:22 <nirik> So, we agreed to drop the root ban the other week.
16:23:25 <nirik> I removed it.
16:23:34 <Southern_Gentlem> we did?
16:23:37 <nirik> Someone came in as root, and ChanServ banned them.
16:23:45 <DiscordianUK> Indeed
16:23:47 <nirik> so, there may be a freenode wide policy somehow?
16:23:51 <nirik> Southern_Gentlem: yep.
16:23:53 <plarsen> That should be the policy?
16:23:55 <Tacos> no, just an akick in chanserv
16:24:03 <Tacos> freenode doesn't do that sort of things :)
16:24:03 <nirik> Tacos: ah ha. I didn't check that.
16:24:11 <nirik> Tacos: good. ;)
16:24:22 <nirik> ok, I can nuke the akick. I hate those, I always forget to check them.
16:25:05 <nirik> anyone want to revisit this or shall I just do it and move on?
16:25:22 <Southern_Gentlem> mo
16:25:34 <plarsen> nirik: there usually a reason for banning roots
16:25:53 <plarsen> nirik: they used to be hacks or bad scripts besides being a security risk to themselves.
16:25:59 <plarsen> What's the reason for allowing them in?
16:26:04 <nirik> plarsen: well, we decided it doesn't really help much. We can explain to people why it's a bad idea, but many things are bad ideas.
16:26:20 <nirik> if we just ban them they have no idea whats wrong (or many of them).
16:26:37 <nirik> we used to redirect to a channel that explains things, but thats no longer there.
16:26:59 <plarsen> nirik: so we're basically saying that they pose no flood or similar risk to the channel?
16:27:15 <nirik> no more so than anyone else... and the bot will kick them for flooding.
16:27:15 <fenris02> plarsen, nothing worse than $normal_user
16:27:43 <Southern_Gentlem> plarsen,  and all irc clients say useing irc is very risky do not do it
16:27:50 <plarsen> fenris02: I would say the chance/risk is higher. But no biggie. It's always been the IRC policy for as long as I remember ;)
16:28:15 <Southern_Gentlem> for the user yes the the channel no
16:28:19 <nirik> well, we can revisit it if it causes a problem...
16:28:23 <plarsen> Southern_Gentlem: exactly. Anyway - not beating this fish if there's no identified risk
16:28:24 <nirik> I don't think it will.
16:28:49 <Southern_Gentlem> and the nick of root is owned by a freenode staffer
16:28:59 <nirik> #topic Topic topic
16:29:10 <nirik> ok, we talked about replacing our current topic with just a link...
16:29:19 <nirik> fenris02: was working on some pages for this.
16:29:40 <fenris02> landing page to replace 90% of the /topic -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_communicate_using_IRC
16:29:48 <fenris02> comments / questions / remarks ?
16:30:03 <zcat> a smaller topic to not read.
16:30:06 <Southern_Gentlem> sorry people dont read the topic now nor will they go read a webpag
16:30:07 <Tacos> people tend to skip the topic as-is quite often, having a link instead will make even less people read it
16:30:23 <fenris02> zcat, i'm trying to fit it within the 72-95 "ideal" width ...
16:31:14 <fenris02> when you point to the /topic today, nobody can find what it is you're talking about
16:31:15 <nirik> I think we would need a page/question talking about polling and offtopic stuff.
16:31:19 <Southern_Gentlem> we can try it and see what happens
16:31:43 <plarsen> It's been my experience that topics are rarely read if at all.
16:31:43 <fenris02> nirik, i think that is ideal, but too much for a /topic
16:32:12 <nirik> fenris02: no, not in topic... on the wiki. ;)
16:32:29 <fenris02> nirik, you have something in mind for it already?
16:32:35 <yves____> blah
16:32:43 <nirik> I think a link explaining what polling is, etc, would be much nicer than us saying "don't poll" and people asking what that means, etc.
16:32:50 * fenris02 nods
16:32:58 <nirik> I could try and whip something up.
16:33:11 <nirik> we also have already in the topic: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Getting_started_with_IRC_help
16:33:26 <Southern_Gentlem> polling which is better gnome or kde?
16:33:32 <plarsen> nirik: would it be beneficial to point to where people can ask those sorts of questions?  For nobs you have "what should I choose" kind of questions.
16:33:38 <fenris02> is it worth consolidating the two pages?  or just link them ?
16:33:48 <Southern_Gentlem> links
16:34:03 <zcat> /topic #fedora Fedora 1[123] Support; Quick Links -> http://foo; If You Are Reading This: +1 cookie
16:34:09 <fenris02> Southern_Gentlem, getting started link is the first link on the other page
16:34:13 <nirik> well, I don't like either page all that much... ;) Perhaps we should make a new one and consolidate.
16:34:37 <nirik> plarsen: yeah... or how to rephase the question...
16:34:44 <fenris02> nirik, i'm game, but could come up with something i really liked in the few minutes i spent thinking about it
16:34:46 * mock votes for gnome, ftr
16:34:58 <mock> ;)
16:35:10 <fenris02> mock, pfft.  emacsos
16:35:11 <mharris> Suggestion:  ban people at random at even intervals
16:35:25 <mharris> Then immediately state "the bannings will continue until morale improves"
16:35:47 <nirik> mharris: ha.
16:35:49 <mharris> I think EvilBob is with me on this one
16:36:01 * fenris02 sets mode +v mharris "the bannings will continue until morale improves"
16:36:18 <mharris> ;P
16:36:25 <nirik> lets try this to move forward here:
16:36:38 <nirik> how about we brainstorm what a topic/landing page needs?
16:36:43 <fenris02> so, postpone until we have a better landing page?
16:37:06 <mharris> nirik: HTML5 video, some WebGL, lots of javascript
16:37:20 <nirik> mharris: thanks for "helping". ;)
16:37:24 <fenris02> mharris, best when viewed with firefox 3.7
16:37:26 <mock> lol
16:37:32 <plarsen> heh
16:37:41 <nirik> or perhaps we could ask docs folks to help out?
16:37:47 <mharris> hey, I just provide the entertainment folks... keep a smile on everyone's face and people get along more naturally
16:37:50 <mharris> ;)
16:38:01 <mharris> fenris02: with custom patches!
16:38:16 <mharris> nirik: naw, they'll use flash
16:38:17 <fenris02> and ssl !
16:38:28 <mharris> yes, definitely needs to be over https
16:39:32 <nirik> so: a) use one of the above pages now, b) try and work on a new page over the next week c) a&b d) if you read this far, +1 karma.
16:39:57 <fenris02> nirik, c&d
16:40:25 <nirik> ok, if we do that, which page?
16:40:26 <mharris> one more suggestion...
16:40:37 <mharris> pass it through an upsidedownternet proxy
16:40:48 <fenris02> i love that one
16:40:56 <dcr226> nirik, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Getting_started_with_IRC_help
16:40:57 <mharris> more people will be likely to read it that way because upside down web pages draw curiousity
16:41:07 <fenris02> nirik, if it helps any, we can use ln-s or bit.ly to make the url shorter
16:41:40 <fenris02> .ln http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Getting_started_with_IRC_help
16:41:41 <zodbot> fenris02: http://ln-s.net/6xWX
16:41:44 <dcr226> the other one, gives many details on logging onto irc, for which you will have already done to read the topic
16:41:48 <mharris> http://userweb.kernel.org/~warthog9/april1/2010/
16:42:23 <plarsen> Are there really that many IRC beginners? It seems to be people know how to use the channels and all (mostly) but it's how to ask/behave that's a problem
16:42:58 <nirik> yeah, there are a number...
16:43:09 <nirik> but yes, they would have already figured out how to get to the channel I guess.
16:43:18 <nirik> So, the new page should be geared toward that.
16:43:34 <plarsen> I guess the better question is, how does a person find the channel in the first place?
16:43:38 <dcr226> can't we have a @behave alias?
16:43:52 <fenris02> .ln https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_communicate_using_IRC
16:43:53 <zodbot> fenris02: http://ln-s.net/6xX3
16:43:55 <fenris02> for completness
16:44:05 <nirik> plarsen: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate and google I guess.
16:44:11 <dcr226> seeing as its a small number of trolls, who almost certainly wont read it first (regarding behaviour)
16:44:22 <nirik> plarsen: I am trying to get a way to get shortcuts on the desktop installs tho.
16:44:41 <nirik> dcr226: that would be pretty general.
16:44:47 <DiscordianUK> That shortened URL would put me off
16:44:55 <plarsen> nirik: Well, I've seen a few people come in on public "java/hosted" sites - they're very confused. People that run local clients seems to be a lot more "oriented" on how to use IRC
16:45:00 <nirik> yeah, I think the full url would be nicer.
16:45:17 <nirik> plarsen: yeah, we get a share of freenode webchat folks too.
16:45:29 <fenris02> DiscordianUK, ditto, but we have them in the /topic today
16:45:49 <DiscordianUK> I'd be happy with the long URL in the /topic
16:46:04 <nirik> so, proposed topic change for today?
16:46:11 <fenris02> DiscordianUK, either of the aforementioned, or one you want to write fresh?
16:46:30 <DiscordianUK> The one you last mentioned fenris02 for now
16:47:13 <plarsen> With the abbreved urls you have to add text describing them using space anyway. I would vote for full named urls requiring no supplemental text.
16:47:19 <fenris02> "Fedora 11, 12, 13 end user support. See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_communicate_using_IRC for details" ?
16:47:35 <DiscordianUK> +1 fenris02
16:48:06 <nirik> how about: "Fedora 11, 12, 13 end user support. Please READ: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_communicate_using_IRC"
16:48:16 <fenris02> wfm.  +1
16:48:26 <DiscordianUK> +1
16:48:46 <nirik> and we can work on a new page and put that in next week, or revert it if it doesn't work out.
16:49:03 <DiscordianUK> yep
16:49:04 <nirik> any objections?
16:49:23 <DiscordianUK> Not from me
16:50:02 * nirik pauses a second for anyone else to pipe up.
16:50:19 * mock lights up his pipe
16:50:31 <nirik> ok, make it so. ;)
16:50:35 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
16:50:39 <nirik> anything for open floor today?
16:51:18 <fenris02> nada
16:51:37 * nirik will close out the meeting in a few if no one chimes in...
16:51:43 * mock utters an "egad!" since he's smoking a pipe now
16:52:10 <nirik> #endmeeting