16:00:01 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2010-07-29)
16:00:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jul 29 16:00:01 2010 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:02 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
16:00:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
16:00:02 <nirik> #topic init process
16:00:14 * fcami waves.
16:00:22 * dcr226 
16:00:23 * Southern_Gentlem 
16:00:39 * stickster lurky
16:00:42 * Southern_Gentlem here but not here
16:02:01 * DiscordianUK is present
16:03:02 <nirik> ok, I don't have much today, so lets go ahead and get started...
16:03:09 <nirik> #topic Week in review
16:03:21 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
16:03:25 * mock sits eagerly up front
16:03:32 <nirik> seemed like a pretty busy week for some reason.
16:04:20 <fcami> indeed
16:04:23 <DiscordianUK> Yeah has been busy
16:04:33 <Southern_Gentlem> whoohoo i am below the top 10 for a change
16:04:42 <DiscordianUK> I'm not quite sure why
16:04:43 <nirik> nothing specific, just a lot of people and various from what I can see.
16:05:28 <fcami> some people were encountering problems fixed by packages in -testing
16:05:32 <DiscordianUK> Still a lot of people with nvidia woes
16:05:39 <fcami> that, too
16:05:47 <dcr226> nvidia woes are fixed by following the how-tos
16:06:01 <nirik> yeah.
16:06:13 <DiscordianUK> Indeed when people read and follow them
16:06:15 <nirik> anyone have anything else they would like to note or highlight from the previous week?
16:06:17 * dcr226 has 'people skipping steps' woes
16:06:32 <DiscordianUK> That's one of the major problems dcr226
16:06:47 * Southern_Gentlem hands dcr226 his dental tools
16:06:51 <Comnenus> NOTABUG.
16:07:02 <dcr226> Southern_Gentlem, Heh
16:07:15 <nirik> ok... moving on then...
16:07:22 <DiscordianUK> I'll note we're seeing more SeLinux questions these days
16:07:43 <fcami> not sure if that means people don't know how to disable it or there's a general interest in it though
16:08:01 <dcr226> fcami, disabling it isn't really a cool thing to do imo
16:08:09 <DiscordianUK> Well I encourage people to use it
16:08:21 <DiscordianUK> and to customise policy where needed
16:08:26 <nirik> yeah, I think people are leaving it more and more.
16:08:27 <fcami> dcr226: in my opinion neither.
16:08:39 <nirik> so thats why we are seeing more questions, which is just great.
16:08:45 <DiscordianUK> Yep
16:08:54 <fcami> I'm just saying that new users might not have the reflex to disable it
16:09:12 <DiscordianUK> People are actually asking which sebooleans they need to set to do stuff
16:09:19 <fcami> oh. that is cool.
16:09:22 <DiscordianUK> which is a major step forward
16:10:44 <nirik> yep.
16:10:56 <nirik> #topic Feedback process revamp
16:11:14 <nirik> I haven't done much on this still. I have poked at it a bit, but nothing concrete to bring to the meeting yet.
16:11:38 <nirik> If folks want to add ideas, drop them on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Support_Feedback
16:12:46 <EvilBob> I still thank that needs to be two documents
16:13:02 <nirik> for?
16:13:10 <EvilBob> One for complaints about us, another for complaints about other users
16:13:46 <nirik> yeah, I can sperate it out.
16:14:28 <nirik> I'd like to avoid a complex pile of red tape if possible... or 'report a to b, but only if b is a foo and a is a bar' type of stuff. I agree that different types could be handled differently tho.
16:14:53 <nirik> anyhow, will revisit with more concrete ideas soonly.
16:15:02 <dcr226> nirik, while true; report to a
16:15:08 <dcr226> :)
16:15:16 <EvilBob> "this user hurt my feelings" is different than "That damn op banned me for no reason"
16:16:15 <nirik> right.
16:16:41 <nirik> along with "I think foo over there was not treated right" (when foo themselves doesn't care or have any issue)
16:16:47 <nirik> anyhow, moving on.
16:16:51 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
16:16:52 <EvilBob> yup yup
16:16:58 <nirik> Anyone have anything for open floor?
16:17:03 * fenris02 sneezes
16:18:00 <fcami> I think we could push more users towards bodhi
16:18:08 <fcami> when updates sitting in -testing fix their problems
16:18:22 <EvilBob> I disagree
16:18:23 <nirik> yeah... adding feedback there is always nice.
16:18:29 <DiscordianUK> There are pros and cons to that
16:18:36 <fenris02> fcami, using f-e-k ?
16:18:47 <fcami> fenris02: not necessarily, but yeah, why not.
16:18:49 <nirik> if we know it does, adding feedback is great.
16:19:00 <DiscordianUK> I don't think most users are suited to using untested builds
16:19:07 <fenris02> fcami, using -testing without karma is ... erm... a bit on the pointless side
16:19:08 <EvilBob> users don't know how to wipe themselves, why would we expect them to deal with a broken package in bodhi
16:19:10 <fcami> I've had two people with fubared xorg - the left mouse button easy
16:19:14 <nirik> well, if they are going to use f-e-k, they should just go to qa and join the testing folks. :)
16:19:22 <fcami> fenris02: that's the 2nd side of the coin.
16:19:30 <DiscordianUK> what's f-e-k ?
16:19:35 <fcami> easy karma
16:19:36 <fenris02> DiscordianUK, sorry, fedora-easy-karma
16:19:42 <DiscordianUK> Ahhh
16:19:55 <fenris02> DiscordianUK, you can add/minus karma for -testing packages
16:20:03 <fenris02> DiscordianUK, a package needs +2 to get released
16:20:09 * DiscordianUK nods
16:20:16 <nirik> (unless the maintainer changes that)
16:20:18 <fcami> fenris02: even without karma, knowing if a build works or breaks is good. imho.
16:20:31 <DiscordianUK> we could do with more people in -qa anyway
16:20:40 <fcami> +1
16:20:42 <nirik> you have to have a account and login to leave karma that matters for the total... but anyone can leave a comment.
16:20:43 <EvilBob> but that pain should not be inflicted on users
16:21:07 <nirik> If we know a specific package in there fixes an issue a user is having, I see no reason not to have them try it and add feedback.
16:21:30 <DiscordianUK> I tend to agree I wouldn't generally suggest anyone uses the kernels in koji until they're pushed to updates
16:21:32 <nirik> IMHO we should avoid just generically suggesting that someone enable updates-testing.
16:21:33 <EvilBob> * depending on the user
16:21:37 <EvilBob> IMO anhow
16:21:42 <fenris02> EvilBob, hm.  depends highly on the kwality of the user
16:21:42 <DiscordianUK> +1 nirik
16:21:55 <EvilBob> fenris02: Right
16:22:04 <fcami> ok, let's say you know of a bug, and a package in -testing that's supposed to fix the bug
16:22:24 <fenris02> nirik, blindly enabling -testing for all packages is tantamount to killing their system.
16:22:32 <fenris02> not exactly the same, but it will happen
16:22:35 <fcami> if a user complains about it, let him get it - but I wasn't suggesting to enable -testing globally.
16:22:35 <EvilBob> This really is not an ops issue
16:22:53 <nirik> fenris02: well, I would not say that, but its not something end users who don't know what they are doing should be doing.
16:23:03 <fenris02> 'yum update --enablerepo=updates-testing package-foo' is perfectly fine imho
16:23:15 <DiscordianUK> yes
16:23:30 <fenris02> nirik, problem is that it breaks deps too often, then they go nuts trying to "make it work"
16:23:33 <fcami> that was what I meant, ty for putting it into cli.
16:23:49 <DiscordianUK> But we don't want people breaking systems
16:24:07 <nirik> it's not been that bad of late in my experence... but sure, some people shouldn't do it. ;)
16:24:12 <EvilBob> DiscordianUK: I don't, seems it is a risk fcami is willing to take
16:24:19 <fcami> no.
16:24:33 <nirik> I think this is up to the situation... dunno that we need any kind of policy or something on it.
16:24:34 <fenris02> nirik, history prior to f12 was not so grand.  since then, ti's been mostly ok
16:24:41 <fcami> EvilBob: what I am saying is that if you know of a package in -testing that fixes a bug, and user complains about it, let him install the package.
16:24:47 <EvilBob> We have enough broken crap at times ending up in updates
16:24:49 <fcami> EvilBob: I don't think the risk is great that way.
16:25:05 <DiscordianUK> Evilbob : from time to time yes
16:25:21 <EvilBob> All we are going to do is end up with users having systems in random states of disaster
16:25:40 <enthdegree> Oh hey, before we quit, can we get bible-kjv packaged and in the repos?
16:25:55 <nirik> enthdegree: ?
16:25:57 <fenris02> enthdegree, wrong place to be asking, and what is the license?
16:26:25 * fenris02 directs enthdegree  to visit https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Bugs_and_feature_requests and pay special attention to the Tips_by_Type_of_Bug section
16:26:32 <enthdegree> fenris02: Oh ok. Never mind then. sorry
16:26:34 <nirik> anyhow, like I said, I don't think we need a policy here... if you think helping a particular user will be served by having them install a updates-testing update, ok.
16:26:36 <DiscordianUK> I'm assuming he means the King James version of the bible
16:26:59 <fcami> nirik: ok, I'll use that sparingly. thanks.
16:27:07 <nirik> any further items for open floor?
16:27:07 <fenris02> DiscordianUK, sure, but the sw has a license, and it would go to bz for a feature request
16:27:15 <DiscordianUK> yeah
16:27:18 <EvilBob> You break the users system with a package from -foo you can expect to take care of them for life
16:27:21 <EvilBob> how about that
16:27:32 <fcami> doesn't it feel that way already
16:27:32 <enthdegree> DiscordianUK: Yes there are ways of getting a bible via xiphos but in Debian bible-kjv is has a nice little CLI to the text
16:27:33 <nirik> EvilBob: does that hold to all other advise too then?
16:27:50 * fenris02 directs enthdegree  to visit https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Bugs_and_feature_requests and pay special attention to the Tips_by_Type_of_Bug section
16:27:51 <EvilBob> when I break something I fix it
16:28:00 * DiscordianUK wouldn't know about such things
16:28:02 <enthdegree> fenris02: Ok, thank you.
16:28:51 <EvilBob> I rarely have to deal with breakage, I don't have users do silly things
16:29:05 <nirik> sure, and I don't see this as any different then any other case... of course sometimes the end user system is so broken by other things that a clean install is the only option.
16:29:07 <EvilBob> but anyhow, thanks for the topic fcami
16:29:19 <fenris02> EvilBob, with great risk, comes great reward :P
16:29:21 <fcami> thanks for the heartening thoughts EvilBob :)
16:29:22 <EvilBob> Was good to discuss it
16:29:49 * nirik will close up the meeting in a minute here if nothing else comes along...
16:30:09 <EvilBob> fcami: BTW, I feel getting packages from -testing is a lot more sane for most users than getting them from bodhi or koji
16:30:13 * mock looks around
16:30:21 <EvilBob> mock: bacon?
16:30:27 <mock> EvilBob: bacon
16:30:33 <fcami> EvilBob: that, too
16:30:58 <DiscordianUK> Most users shouldn't touch stuff on koji
16:31:26 <Sonar_Gal> bacon
16:31:28 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone!
16:31:31 <EvilBob> the fact is most of the users that end up in #fedora are there because they are lazy or perhaps learning disabled when it comes to using google.
16:31:35 <nirik> #endmeeting