16:00:18 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2010-08-05)
16:00:18 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Aug  5 16:00:18 2010 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:18 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:18 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
16:00:18 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
16:00:18 <nirik> #topic init process
16:00:44 * fenris02 waves
16:01:05 * dcr226 
16:01:14 * gwerra 
16:01:28 * fcami lurks
16:03:02 * Southern_Gentlem 
16:03:11 * DiscordianUK is present
16:03:11 <nirik> ok, lets go ahead and get started.
16:03:16 <nirik> #topic Week in review
16:03:20 * EvilBob 
16:03:25 * jsmith lurks
16:03:31 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html as always.
16:03:39 <nirik> it was a busy week it seemed like...
16:03:41 <fenris02> hello and welcome aboard jsmith :)
16:03:51 <EvilBob> fenris02: suck up
16:03:55 <DiscordianUK> yes welcome
16:03:57 <EvilBob> ;^)
16:04:09 <nirik> Anyone have anything from the previous week they would like to note or shout out?
16:04:22 <DiscordianUK> twas quite busy
16:04:31 <fcami> a bit yes
16:04:34 <fcami> (busy, I mean)
16:04:36 <jsmith> EvilBob: I remember the good ol' days when you said hello to me too :-p
16:04:36 <nirik> I will note that it seems virtualbox-ose is broken in rpmfusion. Lots of people with issues with it... we can really only point them to bugzilla.rpmfusion.org.
16:04:44 <nirik> welcome jsmith. ;)
16:04:54 * fcami waves to jsmith
16:04:55 * tertl3 solicits
16:05:00 <EvilBob> I banned a user from -social for 24 hours, was bragging about how he pirated windows and how easy it is to do
16:05:05 * gwerra waves to jsmith
16:05:11 <EvilBob> jsmith: Hi Jared
16:05:17 <DiscordianUK> urggle I'm no 4 on those stats
16:05:31 <fenris02> i've said it before, and i dont mind repeating that.  illegal activities are still illegal, and against freenode rules.
16:05:33 <fcami> DiscordianUK: we can swap places if you like
16:05:43 <DiscordianUK> fcami: no ta
16:05:44 * nirik nods.
16:05:45 <EvilBob> The user understood the ban, only questioned how long it was for
16:06:11 <EvilBob> sadly the bot did not unban on schedule so they were banned about 2 hours longer than planned
16:06:25 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah, I need to look into that... there was not an outage or anything.
16:06:39 <fenris02> EvilBob, at least you did catch it.
16:06:56 <fcami> lots of people using the nvidia proprietary driver from rpmfusion by habit, some having problems with it. not much we can do I guess, for most people nouveau's 3D support is lacking.
16:06:57 <DiscordianUK> well I imagine if they'd been reported to #freenode they'd have got a /kline
16:06:57 <EvilBob> We handled it and I apologized.
16:07:23 <nirik> fcami: yeah, I have taken to suggesting they try the free driver first... some people have found it to meet their needs now.
16:07:50 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik,  do we need to nominate the new fpl as an op?
16:07:54 <fcami> nirik: true for desktop people, but it doesn't hold in gaming / 3D situations apparently. I have no nv hw, and freedesktop doesn't care about 3D issues with nouveau yet.
16:07:59 <Venemo> nouveau works quite decently for Compiz and some other stuff
16:08:19 <fenris02> fails for games
16:08:24 <fcami> Venemo: depends on the hw, I think. good to know it works for ya.
16:08:27 <fenris02> the new driver from nvidia.com is not on rpmfusion yet either.
16:08:40 <Southern_Gentlem> fenris02,  and it is a PITA
16:08:42 <fenris02> nouveau has issues with cards lower than 5-series
16:08:46 <nirik> Southern_Gentlem: not sure. ;)
16:08:50 <Venemo> fcami: for games, it is not working, you are right about that.
16:08:55 <nirik> jsmith: do you wish to be an op in #fedora? or have any need to be one?
16:09:18 <jsmith> nirik: I have no need, really
16:09:41 * Southern_Gentlem refers to the email sent to the irc support list ask us to add him
16:09:44 <nirik> jsmith: ok, thought we would ask. ;)
16:09:54 <EvilBob> Southern_Gentlem: that was adding to the alias
16:10:04 <nirik> ok, anything else about the previous week? or shall we move on?
16:10:06 <EvilBob> Southern_Gentlem: I believe that has been done
16:10:08 <jsmith> nirik: If I change my mind, I know who to pester
16:10:17 <nirik> EvilBob: I haven't done it yet, but it's on my list. ;)
16:10:25 <EvilBob> Ah
16:11:02 <nirik> ok, moving on...
16:11:07 <Southern_Gentlem> jsmith, us
16:11:11 <nirik> #topic Feedback process
16:11:29 <nirik> ok, so I have had: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Support_Feedback sitting around for a while...
16:12:00 <nirik> I'd like to propose some ideas and get feedback from people on feedback. ;)
16:12:09 <EvilBob> nirik: I should have a real internet connection some time today to help work on that
16:12:47 <EvilBob> the wiki, and many other sites, time out when I try to load them for editing and such
16:12:48 <nirik> idea a) setup a public mailing list. This list could be used for meeting agenda items, minutes, and general discussion. We could also accept feedback here.
16:12:51 <fenris02> nirik, erm, that page has not changed much
16:12:56 <nirik> fenris02: right.
16:13:25 <nirik> the issue with feedback there is that it could result in flames from people involved in something, and it doesn't say how we will act on the feedback.
16:13:31 <DiscordianUK> That sounds like a good plan to me, nirik
16:13:50 * dcr226 worries about initial flames getting out of hand on a public list
16:13:58 <nirik> idea b) we could setup a trac instance to trac feedback.
16:14:04 <fenris02> nirik, my concern with making it a ml is that they tend to get side tracked and start emailing folks personally
16:14:08 <fenris02> rather than the group/list
16:14:17 * dcr226 thinks there should be some sort of sandbox for the initial flames to die off
16:14:26 <nirik> fenris02: sure, just like on irc people sometimes start /msging
16:14:35 <DiscordianUK> Indeed
16:14:41 <fenris02> umode +g exists for irc. not for ml
16:14:57 <EvilBob> One of the issues I have with a public list is what the complaints are generally, user is pissed the op or helper did something, the op is pissed that the user is a shed full of tools and does not know how to read
16:14:58 <nirik> dcr226: idea a) 1: list members are moderated for the first 24 hours... they have that long to cancel a post made in the heat of the moment.
16:15:24 <dcr226> nirik, that wfm
16:15:27 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah, but thats the same no matter what channel is used.
16:15:33 <nirik> also, for extra reading:
16:15:56 <nirik> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess
16:15:58 <EvilBob> The above results in dirty laundry and I don't feel it needs to be aired in public
16:16:12 <nirik> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianIRCChannelGuidelines
16:17:10 <nirik> If the dirty laundry is kept in a cubbord in the basement no one is likely to ever clean it.
16:17:43 <EvilBob> A public list will result in hurt feelings of users and ops/helpers being hunted as hard asses. People just trying to push their buttons
16:17:54 <DiscordianUK> The problem with an IRC Council is when people who don't use IRC regularly sit on it
16:18:17 <EvilBob> Are we still looking at this "IRC Council" crap?
16:18:30 <DiscordianUK> You have to understand the way IRC works
16:18:46 * nirik dislikes all the in private junk. We are a open project. If people have problems we should discuss them in public, try and learn from them and move on.
16:18:54 * dcr226 thinks we've been dancing around this for too long. there are 2 ideas, with pros and cons - lets vote and get something implemented. we can always correct a bad decision, but can't do much with no-decision
16:19:11 <nirik> EvilBob: I was posting links of what other groups do. I didn't propose any council.
16:19:17 <DiscordianUK> No evilbob I'm against an IRC Council
16:19:21 <EvilBob> Fine but I am not going to be told to shut up like I am on every other list when I speak my mind
16:19:27 <MrJones> re
16:19:34 <DiscordianUK> re Mr Jones
16:19:38 <nirik> welcome back MrJones
16:19:39 <fenris02> i'd rather have a public www page.  that way, everyone can say their bit and it wont result in pm's that are untrackable
16:19:42 <fenris02> no hurt feelings
16:19:48 <nirik> fenris02: going to where?
16:19:55 <DiscordianUK> so trac ?
16:20:03 <fenris02> nirik, hosted where you mean?
16:20:12 <fcami> I like the trac idea better than a ml
16:20:15 <nirik> fenris02: well, and what does it have on it? a feedback form?
16:20:35 <fenris02> DiscordianUK, or something like it yes,
16:20:35 <DiscordianUK> It'd be hosted on our infrastructure I'm sure
16:20:39 <fcami> because it's about tracking issues, not starting a new flamewar in another flamewar-prone medium
16:20:55 <fenris02> nirik, basically.  they absolutely must have sufficient logs of the event or it's pointless
16:21:15 <EvilBob> "Feedback" is a misnomer, it is a bitch list
16:21:16 <fcami> just saying. the 24h thing may stop users at first, but they'll vent another way to vent their anger, probably fedora-list or worse, -devel
16:21:21 <fcami> *find
16:21:27 <fenris02> $foo called me $name ==> Useless trash.
16:21:30 <nirik> how about we do both?
16:21:42 <dcr226> nirik, yep, trial - see which works better
16:21:49 <DiscordianUK> trac and a ml
16:21:49 <nirik> a general list for us to discuss issues/move forward things.
16:22:06 <nirik> and a trac that people can post issues to.
16:22:07 <DiscordianUK> yeah I'll +1 that
16:22:18 <fcami> yep
16:22:24 <nirik> then some group could triage the trac tickets and forward on info from the ones that need action from the group.
16:22:26 <EvilBob> users are not going to provide positive feedback when someone does a great job, it is only shedding tears when they or a third party gets their hand slapped
16:22:31 <nirik> however, who shall do the triage?
16:22:37 <dcr226> I will
16:22:53 <fcami> depending on volume, I can help if needed
16:22:54 <dcr226> unless its about me ofcourse
16:22:56 <nirik> EvilBob: we should try and change that... tell them to drop a note to the list when they had a good time...
16:23:01 <EvilBob> I am willing as I am not an op in #fedora
16:23:07 <dcr226> LOL
16:23:31 <DiscordianUK> well as long as the triager isn't the person being complained about
16:23:32 * nirik was thinking we should ask mharris. ;)
16:23:33 <fenris02> just remember that "feedback systems" are always heavily geared for negativity ...  do be polite
16:23:39 <fenris02> nirik, +1
16:23:45 <DiscordianUK> mharris +1
16:23:54 <dcr226> well, I don't think triagers will actually do much in the way of commenting
16:24:00 <nirik> except it's a bit rude to nominate someone when they aren't there to say no. ;)
16:24:12 <dcr226> and joking aside, mharris or EvilBob +1
16:24:14 <MrJones> I personally also like the idea to simply ask users to join the meeting to discuss things if they don't like something...
16:24:17 <fenris02> nirik, isnt that why you nominated him ? :)
16:24:21 <DiscordianUK> he's here nirik
16:24:22 <nirik> ha.
16:24:25 <dcr226> mharris is present
16:24:33 <nirik> his irc client is. ;)
16:24:51 <DiscordianUK> he joined as the meeting began
16:24:56 <EvilBob> MrJones: We shall get to your drama in a minute... oh wait I should say that differently
16:25:16 <dcr226> he's been online in the last 20 minutes or so
16:25:25 <nirik> well, I guess I would be willing to setup the trac/mailing list and we can revisit who can triage next week?
16:25:35 <dcr226> nah, lets get it nailed
16:25:52 <dcr226> or just vote the triager in -ops later on
16:26:02 <EvilBob> I still think we need to revise the page that nirik posted
16:26:12 <DiscordianUK> I suggest we let fcami, dcr226 and mharris triage if they're willing
16:26:13 <fenris02> EvilBob, what needs to be modified?
16:26:23 <nirik> EvilBob: that page is a ideas container... we need a real page for what we are going to try/do.
16:27:04 <dcr226> I honestly don't think it will be a busy list, but am happy to triage non-dcr226 complaints (of which there have been none, for the benefit of the tape)
16:27:15 <nirik> I think it might be good to get people who: a) know irc well, and b) are not all that active in #fedora or #fedora-social. Less likely that they would have a confict that they would have to look at first.
16:27:15 * mock slips in the back with a bunch of bacon
16:27:29 <DiscordianUK> Precisely why you're a good choice dcr226
16:27:41 * gwerra would like to help too if he can
16:27:47 <nirik> so, I would propose (pending their agreement) something like: stickster and mharris
16:27:56 <dcr226> wfm, +1
16:28:10 <dcr226> fcami, :)
16:28:21 <EvilBob> there are still two categories of issues, op on user, helper on user
16:28:22 <DiscordianUK> casting vote to jsmith ?
16:28:45 <jsmith> +1 on sticktser and mharris
16:28:54 <nirik> EvilBob: sure. But both could file a ticket... be triaged and then they could send the 'boiled down' feedback to the list for action.
16:28:59 <jsmith> (pending their agreement)
16:29:07 <Southern_Gentlem> need odd number there i really think
16:29:18 <DiscordianUK> hence my last comment
16:29:19 <nirik> (ie, in many cases, no action needed. ;)
16:29:24 <Southern_Gentlem> panel of 3
16:29:29 * mock likes 7 as an odd number
16:29:37 <fenris02> 23!
16:29:41 <fenris02> oh, wait.
16:29:43 <nirik> Southern_Gentlem: yeah might be best... jsmith, you want to / have time to help? or we could perhaps ask rdieter. ;)
16:29:58 <EvilBob> seems we still need to work things out a bit
16:30:14 <jsmith> nirik: I would certainly *like* to help, but I'm not sure I have the spare cycles right now
16:30:20 <DiscordianUK> I think this is an interim solution
16:30:28 <jsmith> nirik: I'm sure one of the other board members might be willing to do it, though
16:30:33 <fenris02> jsmith, it does not come up often really.
16:30:35 * dcr226 votes nirik
16:30:37 * nirik ponders.
16:30:46 <EvilBob> DiscordianUK: problem there is they become permanent
16:30:47 <fenris02> jsmith, there just needs to be some process in place
16:30:48 <DiscordianUK> jds2001, maybe?
16:30:50 <nirik> I guess I could, but again I am active in #fedora, so not sure thats ideal
16:30:58 <nirik> dgilmore perhaps?
16:31:06 <jsmith> dgilmore might do it
16:31:06 <Southern_Gentlem> if jsmith is not available an op not involved can be the 3rd person
16:31:09 * dcr226 votes nirik ,not only for triage, but also for Nobel Peace Prize
16:31:13 <dcr226> :-)
16:31:16 <nirik> har.
16:31:43 <DiscordianUK> dgilmore is a respected person in this community for sure
16:32:18 <nirik> yeah, so as much as I would like to finish this today, how about we setup a page and flesh things out?
16:32:26 <nirik> or setup the mailing list now and finish details there. ;)
16:32:37 <fcami> yeah, that works. ml first.
16:32:45 <DiscordianUK> That's sounds sane
16:32:52 <dcr226> ml +1
16:32:57 * mock is a fan of sane
16:33:24 <nirik> ok. Any further thoughts on this before we move on?
16:33:32 <DiscordianUK> ml +1
16:33:48 <fenris02> nirik, none, but i'm also out of time.
16:34:17 <mock> nirik: yes, one thing...wait, i don't know what we are talking about...so, no.
16:34:22 <nirik> ha.
16:35:22 <nirik> #topic Feedback / issue
16:35:30 <dgilmore> i might do what?
16:35:33 <nirik> MrJones: care to talk about your issue/feedback?
16:35:41 <MrJones> of course
16:36:05 <nirik> dgilmore: we are looking for some respected folks to take irc complaint tickets and triage them and then provide feedback/recommendations to the folks involved.
16:36:14 <MrJones> although I wonder whether it makes sense when fenris02 is not there..
16:36:27 <DiscordianUK> He's had to go
16:36:28 <nirik> oh yeah, sorry, I didn't realize he had to head out early. ;(
16:36:52 <dcr226> makes sense, present or not
16:36:52 <Southern_Gentlem> lets go ahead
16:36:54 <dgilmore> nirik: sure i can help there.  not sure i count though
16:37:40 <MrJones> well... I can add to the log, that this is not the first case it got a bit rough between us
16:38:14 <MrJones> it's not really been as unfitting as it was at that moment (since he seemed to not get the point), but I already considered asking him not to answer my questions at all since always when he did I felt a bit like an idiot :/
16:38:38 <MrJones> I of course can't judge whether that's appropriate, but it was simply a pretty inconvenient situation to ask in #fedora at all if I had issues
16:38:57 * nirik notes MrJones is talking about http://eloxoph.com/bugreporterquestion.txt
16:40:08 <nirik> MrJones: FYI, my take on it is two fold: fenris02 should stop repeating things when it's clear the user isn't understanding them, and you shouldn't take this as him being rude or offensive to you. Remember that irc is not like talking to someone in person, don't try and read things into their comments...
16:40:35 <nirik> MrJones: I think he was trying to get you to file a bug on the kde component so the maintainer could explain why they have that set the way they do.
16:41:12 <MrJones> still not sure about this. either that or simply trying to explain how to forward it. I think he can only tell himself what he actually intended to say... as I still don't fully understand
16:41:27 <MrJones> it's just that way he dropped the URL
16:41:38 <Southern_Gentlem> MrJones,  from reading the logs i would have told you to file the bugzilla and directed you to the #fedora-kde folks
16:41:47 <MrJones> "<url> here you go." *user is confused and asks what that means* "well, you haven't read the URL properly then! read it again!"
16:42:03 <dcr226> MrJones, what would be the best outcome in your eyes here/
16:42:05 <dcr226> +?
16:42:18 <MrJones> when he dropped the URL and I asked what he wanted to say, it would be easy for him to explain what he wanted to say
16:42:29 <MrJones> e.g. "you should file that issue on the kde bug tracker or ask them about it"
16:42:33 <MrJones> or "you need to forward the bug like this"
16:42:41 <MrJones> instead his response was "you haven't read what I gave you properly" and insisted on it
16:42:47 <DiscordianUK> It's a fair call
16:42:51 <MrJones> that made me feel like an idiot and I still didn't get it
16:43:01 <DiscordianUK> We aren't developers
16:43:12 <Southern_Gentlem> MrJones, and it looks like he was involved with several people at the time
16:43:24 <MrJones> yea... I sure could have waited for a good response for 5 minutes
16:43:31 <dcr226> understood, the feedback is much appreciated. what does a good outcome from today look like?
16:44:02 <MrJones> do you mean outcome as what I expected him to do instead? or what could be changed following that situation
16:44:18 <Southern_Gentlem> MrJones,  had you read what he had asked you to read  yes or no
16:44:37 <dcr226> no, we understand what you expected. I just wonder what makes you feel better about the situation going forward. we can't change what _happened_ unfortunately
16:44:55 <autopsy> I always Tell AndyCap to quit talking to me *snicker*
16:45:05 <MrJones> Southern_Gentlem: well, I can tell you what it think said (I haven't read it word per word): I think it explained to me where I need to file different types of bugs to, e.g. the kde bugs to the kde bug tracker, or general bugs to the redhat bug tracker etc
16:45:07 <autopsy> He likes to chime in an me "NO NO UR WRONG"
16:45:46 <MrJones> Southern_Gentlem: since my question was about how the kde bug reporter tool was in place and that tool wasn't even mentioned there (not even in a word), I soon decided that this is not really what I expected to read
16:45:51 <MrJones> since I wasn't confused on where to file bugs about things
16:45:52 <DiscordianUK> Its a fair point MrJones
16:45:54 <MrJones> but rather curious about that tool
16:46:17 <DiscordianUK> we ship Gnome and KDE as upstream provide them
16:46:21 <dcr226> MrJones, we can see most of that from the log. what are you looking to achieve today?
16:47:02 <fcami> MrJones: that's a question the package maintainer can answer in a bug report, probably not an IRC helper, especially when overbusy. I think.
16:47:05 <MrJones> dcr226: well, mainly I just wanted to talk about it. in the future I'd hope fenris02 would simply take things a bit more calmly and maybe just be a bit more helpful on his responses (and what he actually wanted to say)
16:47:09 <dcr226> MrJones, or would you just like to get it off your chest?
16:47:13 <nirik> I think we should all learn from this that you can't just keep feeding someone the same link... you have to expand on it.
16:47:18 <MrJones> dcr226: that was the main intention yes
16:47:27 <MrJones> nobody can force fenris02 to change
16:47:33 <dcr226> MrJones, excellent, thats what I thought. its _Very_ valuable feedback
16:48:02 * dcr226 thinks we can thank MrJones and move on
16:48:09 <MrJones> thanks for listening so kindly
16:48:16 <Venemo> MrJones: well, I think fenris02 has been very helpful to me
16:48:24 <dcr226> Venemo, not that place, but thanks
16:48:54 <nirik> thanks MrJones
16:49:04 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
16:49:17 <nirik> Any other items for the meeting? Anything anyone would like to bring up?
16:49:27 <EvilBob> My Cable/Internet guy is here so I will be offline
16:49:56 <DiscordianUK> Yes i'd like to ask about the status of the Fedora cla
16:49:59 <nirik> EvilBob: good luck on high speed. ;)
16:50:14 <nirik> DiscordianUK: I think it was getting updated... or that already happened.
16:50:26 <DiscordianUK> I see talk about it getting changed
16:50:50 <autopsy> I would like to order a pizza, and you guys are free to pay for it I mean chip in for it.
16:51:03 <autopsy> Whaddya say EvilBob.
16:51:25 <nirik> DiscordianUK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:Revised_Fedora_CLA_Draft
16:51:30 <DiscordianUK> Other than I have nowt
16:51:33 <DiscordianUK> ta
16:52:04 * nirik will close the meeting in a minute if nothing else comes up
16:53:00 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone!
16:53:04 <nirik> #endmeeting