16:00:07 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2010-09-02)
16:00:07 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Sep  2 16:00:07 2010 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:07 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:07 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
16:00:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
16:00:07 <nirik> #topic init process
16:01:20 <nirik> who all is around?
16:01:24 * plarsen raises hand
16:01:30 * dcr226 
16:01:36 * BobLfoot 
16:02:10 <B-> 
16:02:32 * zmore [ OK ]
16:02:40 <dcr226> Heh
16:02:45 <B-> hehe
16:03:10 <nirik> oh good, the systemd update on zmore didn't break startup. ;)
16:03:14 <plarsen> we are geeks ;)
16:03:20 <dcr226> HA
16:03:27 <nirik> anyhow, I guess lets go ahead and get started...
16:03:38 <zmore> nirik, hah... i was holding back any systemd quips because i haven't poked at it much yet
16:03:39 <nirik> #topic Week in review
16:03:39 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
16:04:06 <dcr226> think their servers are down :(
16:04:12 <zmore> AC's out
16:04:35 * thomasj is here
16:04:40 <nirik> oh yeah.
16:05:05 <dcr226> nirik, lets just assume I got the best stats and move on?
16:05:07 <nirik> since our last meeting: 4 kicks in #fedora. 3 by fedbot for flooding.
16:05:08 * dcr226 ducks
16:05:34 <dcr226> wow, thats pretty awesome actually, only one kick that wasn't the bot
16:05:44 <nirik> one ban as well.
16:05:50 <dcr226> same person?
16:06:24 <nirik> nope.
16:06:47 <zmore> there would've been one more kick by me, but fedbot was offline
16:06:55 * plarsen wonders if that's because school is back ?
16:07:09 <nirik> yeah, I had network connection issues yesterday. ;(
16:07:22 <nirik> Anyhow, it's seemed like a pretty quiet week.
16:07:30 <nirik> anyone have anything to note from the previous week?
16:08:13 <nirik> ok, moving on...
16:08:21 <nirik> #topic trac instance setup
16:08:30 <nirik> I started a thread on the mailing list on this...
16:08:48 <nirik> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/irc-support-sig/
16:09:14 <nirik> so far people think we should just leave it requiring a fas login to make a new ticket...
16:09:21 <nirik> but more input is of course welcome.
16:10:15 <plarsen> nirik, in my opinion to be efficient it should allow for non-members to post. Otherwise you're not giving most people in #fedora a chance to contribute.
16:10:42 <nirik> plarsen: well, it's not hard to sign up for a fedora account...
16:10:47 <thomasj> plarsen, and giving some nice drive by comments the chance ;)
16:10:54 <plarsen> nirik, to avoid spam you could limit the size and add rules like same IP posting more than X number of times a day is denied.
16:11:14 <BobLfoot> It's been a few months since I got my fas but aren;t they avaialble to jsut about anyone?
16:11:15 <nirik> there's not any way to do that in trac I don't think.
16:11:27 <nirik> BobLfoot: yes, it's just a sign up and ack an email.
16:11:46 <nirik> basically the same it would be for signing up for a mailing list.
16:12:05 <nirik> also, I will note that #fedora requires freenode registration, so they must have some kind of email address to have done that. ;)
16:12:05 <plarsen> nirik, that would work; still be open and limit SOME of the spam?
16:12:31 <BobLfoot> So if I really have a problem taking 2 mintues to sign up and another mintue to respond to the email is small potatoes IMHO
16:12:37 <nirik> plarsen: you can specify who can make new tickets: anyone, or only members of a group.
16:12:49 <EvilBob> Not everyone can sign the CLA
16:12:51 <nirik> plarsen: if you pick anyone, it means anyone at all can make a ticket.
16:13:01 <nirik> EvilBob: you do not need to sign the CLA to make a ticket.
16:13:12 <nirik> it's just a fedora account.
16:13:13 <EvilBob> things may have changed as i have not followed any of that discussion in the past
16:13:17 <EvilBob> OK
16:13:17 <plarsen> nirik, isn't the site meant to be the arbitrator of #fedora issues? Meaning it should allow of people who attend #fedora to post there?
16:13:32 <nirik> plarsen: it's for feedback, yep.
16:14:03 * dcr226 doesn't want anyone to have to put much more effort into the feedback trac, until someone actually makes an attempt to give feedback, fwiw
16:14:06 <plarsen> nirik, sounds to me like requiring the same as it does to /j #fedora is the way to go. Email confirmation ?
16:14:22 <nirik> plarsen: right, which signing up for a fedora account would be...
16:15:06 <plarsen> nirik, if by that you mean signing up on the track site with your email address, yeah. To me FAS is quite a bigger deal?
16:15:25 <BobLfoot> crazy idea - how hard to create account for bot and let it post tickets from folks in #fedora?
16:15:39 <EvilBob> As long as the required FAS account does not require the CLA I am cool with that.
16:15:43 <nirik> plarsen: fedora trac uses fedora accounts system.
16:15:47 <dcr226> BobLfoot, cool idea, would get spammed though I reckon ;-(
16:16:19 <nirik> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/user/new
16:16:30 <EvilBob> We want feedback from real people, not bugs
16:16:32 <plarsen> BobLfoot, for seasoned IRC folkes that would work. For people new/unsure of IRC who gets in trouble, I doubt they'll know how to use the bot to get a ticket created?
16:16:34 <EvilBob> I mean bots
16:16:48 <nirik> so, you fill that in and get a confirm email which you ack to activate the account.
16:16:52 <nirik> it seems pretty easy to me...
16:17:09 <dcr226> EvilBob, eliza ftw ;-)
16:17:13 <EvilBob> plarsen: they jump trough a hoop to get in to the channel, they do a little dance to give feedback.
16:17:20 <plarsen> nirik, hmm - I thought you said above it didn't ;)  Maybe we're saying the same. The user confirms his/her email in order to be able to post - mainly to reduce spam. Most people know how to do that already.
16:17:43 * BobLfoot light bulb dawns -- #fedora trac tickets are for problems using irc channel - ah ha
16:17:52 <EvilBob> Yes they have already passed the most basic intelligence test
16:18:02 <plarsen> EvilBob, true; you need to know SOMETHING to get your freenode "hat" so you can join the real channel.
16:18:09 <nirik> plarsen: the CLA is after that. Contributor license agreement. Ie, if you want to contribute and join other groups you have to sign that agreement... but you do NOT need that to make trac tickets.
16:18:28 <EvilBob> nirik: Is a FAS account needed for Bugzilla?
16:18:41 <nirik> EvilBob: nope. they are seperate.
16:19:01 <nirik> but it needs an account. You have to sign up and provide an email and ack it.
16:19:08 <nirik> so, it's the same dance.
16:19:16 <EvilBob> nirik: Right on
16:19:37 <nirik> so, how about we hook trac up to the list and start pointing people at it for feedback and see how it goes?
16:19:49 <plarsen> nirik, +1
16:20:02 <EvilBob> Has anything been done with the trac frontpage?
16:20:29 <nirik> not yet. I would love for someone to step up to do so... or I can possibly in the next few days.
16:20:31 <BobLfoot> nirik: +1
16:20:34 <nirik> it's a wiki...
16:21:05 <EvilBob> Oh so it has fail built in? Cool!
16:21:09 * EvilBob ducks
16:21:12 <nirik> EvilBob: extra helpings. ;)
16:22:09 <zmore> +1 tryitandseeifthebarstoohigh
16:22:18 * Khaytsus munches pad thai
16:22:40 <nirik> okey dokey. If anyone would like to edit the frontpage, please do, otherwise I can try in the next few days.
16:22:56 <EvilBob> nirik: I am cool with moving forward on this now that the CLA requirement is clear
16:23:09 <nirik> yeah, I asked that same thing to make sure...
16:23:11 <EvilBob> or lack of CLA requirement
16:23:17 <nirik> they should not have to CLA to provide feedback.
16:23:41 <nirik> anyhow, anything more on trac?
16:23:46 <plarsen> nirik, if getting a user-account is possible, i can try to write a front-page ?
16:24:06 <nirik> plarsen: sure! Sign in with your fedora account and you should be able to edit it...
16:24:07 <dcr226> nirik, let it fly with trac/fas see what happens
16:24:20 <EvilBob> plarsen: Cool, thanks for stepping up
16:24:31 * dcr226 votes revisit in 4 weeks when we have some metrics
16:24:36 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/wiki/WikiStart?action=edit
16:24:47 <EvilBob> dcr226: +1 we have to give it a chance
16:24:53 <nirik> indeed.
16:25:06 <plarsen> nirik, worked. Thanks.
16:25:06 <EvilBob> First meeting in Oct?
16:25:15 <dcr226> wfm +1
16:25:34 <nirik> sure. we can also look at it as we go each week... if it needs quicker correction.
16:25:48 <dcr226> yeah, if there's a major problem or something
16:26:04 <dcr226> to be honest, plarsen should be able to sort most issues by wiki entries
16:26:37 <dcr226> I'll happy take a fallback position on wiki-edits, should plarsen get too busy/afk
16:26:45 <Khaytsus> Is the concern spam or abuse?
16:26:46 <plarsen> I'm used to trac. Run it internally  here at work.
16:26:48 <nirik> it's a wiki, everyone can plan. ;)
16:26:53 <nirik> play
16:26:53 <dcr226> point
16:27:04 <plarsen> So I should get something going quick. Spelling errors may be a different thing though ;)
16:27:19 <dcr226> dnot wory plarsen , I cna help
16:27:25 <dcr226> :)
16:27:31 <plarsen> heh
16:27:38 <Khaytsus> two funneh
16:27:44 <nirik> ha
16:27:59 <nirik> ok, thanks plarsen and dcr226
16:28:03 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
16:28:23 <nirik> I didn't have much else. We can go back to some of the topics from last week, but many of them are waiting on mailing list discussion.
16:28:28 <jsmith> Keep up the good work!  You folks rock!
16:28:32 <jsmith> eof
16:28:39 <nirik> thanks jsmith
16:28:43 <dcr226> thanks jsmith
16:29:06 <EvilBob> Last night I did a k/b in -unregistered
16:29:29 <Khaytsus> csb
16:29:35 <dcr226> just a note. DiscordianUK is away for a little bit, not for any reason to do with the project. He'll be back soon I'm sure
16:30:06 <nirik> yeah.
16:30:07 <Khaytsus> dcr226: Yeah, hopefully able to soon
16:30:10 <dcr226> which kinda relates to the whole inactive-ops thing
16:30:22 <EvilBob> Some user, apparently French from what I could make out, Later they came to #fedora and wanted to be a random pest. Never crossed the line but got close, just keep your eyes to the skies.
16:30:23 <nirik> best wishes to him if you talk to him.
16:30:29 <dcr226> will do
16:30:53 <dcr226> EvilBob, nick?
16:31:03 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah, unregistered gets a lot of drive by stuff... there was a (get this) *bsd drive by in there the other day. Posting links to linux exploits...
16:31:19 <nirik> dcr226: not in meeting please.
16:31:26 <dcr226> ups, wrong channel
16:31:29 <Khaytsus> \o/
16:31:30 <EvilBob> dcr226: It can be noted out of the meeting
16:31:43 <nirik> anyhow, anyone have anything else for open floor?
16:32:36 <thomasj> This will take longer to decide about the inactive-ops thing?
16:32:54 <nirik> thomasj: it's waiting for discussion on the list. I didn't have time to start anything there last week...
16:33:03 <nirik> but I can fire off a discussion starter.
16:33:10 <EvilBob> I did not either, sorry
16:33:23 <thomasj> Well, i can wait.. It's just about me, so don't worry.
16:33:32 <EvilBob> thomasj: no it's not
16:33:39 <EvilBob> it's not about you at all
16:33:50 <EvilBob> it's about establishing a policy
16:33:54 <Khaytsus> thomasj: iirc there are more which are awol for a long time?
16:34:03 <dcr226> yup
16:34:14 <thomasj> Only my nick was mentioned in the list and last here at the meeting.
16:34:21 <thomasj> *last time
16:34:28 <Khaytsus> And +1 on policy
16:34:37 <EvilBob> thomasj: You may have been used as an example, sorry about that
16:34:37 <thomasj> So to me, it's about me.
16:34:45 * dcr226 votes we get a policy nailed up on the ml and put it to bed
16:34:50 <thomasj> EvilBob, don't worry
16:35:08 * nirik thinks we don't need a policy and will post why to the list. ;)
16:35:17 <EvilBob> again, I brought the issue up, and it is not about you.
16:35:27 <dcr226> nirik, Policy : no policy?
16:35:28 * thomasj is just waiting to have his reputation back to normal.
16:35:40 <EvilBob> thomasj: That will take money
16:35:43 <thomasj> hahaha
16:35:53 <thomasj> damn.. i knew it ;)
16:35:55 <zmore> thomasj, you filthy invalid^Winactive
16:36:53 <zmore> -1 'inactive' removal. just clean house of extreme cases every few years.
16:37:26 <Khaytsus> I personally think we could align with release schedules
16:37:33 <Khaytsus> If someone has not actively opped in the last 6 months.....
16:37:47 <nirik> dcr226: well, I think we should remove only people who have done something very wrong, or people we know are dead/never going to return. Removing people who may just not have time right now seems to not solve any problem to me.
16:38:25 <thomasj> Khaytsus, wait, let me op once, so my butt is save for the next 6 months ;p
16:38:31 <EvilBob> nirik: Not having time right now, can be solved with direct contact
16:38:48 <Khaytsus> thomasj: wait 864000 { /say #fedora oh hai }
16:38:54 <EvilBob> nirik: if they tell us that, then it is different than just not being around
16:38:54 <thomasj> lol
16:38:58 <dcr226> nirik, works for me. I just think - if that was the policy, then at least the discussion ends :)
16:39:20 <nirik> I guess the main reason is I don't see the problem it solves. So, someone is not active, then they aren't misusing ops? it's just a entry in a list saying we trusted them to be an op...
16:39:44 <nirik> and when they do become active again, they don't need to re-prove themselves
16:39:48 <Khaytsus> nirik: ONly problem I see is that someone could move on, change opinions....  and (totally not related to any similar nicks) go rogue
16:39:52 <EvilBob> Isn't not being an op and "protecting" the channel a misuse of ops?
16:39:54 <dcr226> the potential is their voting rights. A long term non-op could be called out of hibernation to vote on issues that they are not current with
16:40:10 <nirik> Khaytsus: then we remove them when they misuse?
16:40:11 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: only one issue with that, what if their irc nick gets re-assigned in their absence?
16:40:26 <nirik> dcr226: voting on what? new ops?
16:40:36 <dcr226> not necessarily, but yeah if you like
16:40:37 <Khaytsus> nirik: Could.. but do we need ops inactive for 1, 2 years?
16:40:40 <EvilBob> Not being around for 6 months when they are needed is a gross misuse IMO
16:40:41 <nirik> Sonar_Guy: yeah, if they totally go dormant.
16:40:51 <Khaytsus> nirik: What's the work needed to remove and add?
16:40:55 <nirik> Sonar_Guy: I think it resets those tho
16:41:10 <zmore> Sonar_Guy, iirc, freenode doesn't delete dead accounts for over 1 year.
16:41:15 <nirik> EvilBob: they are busy with other things? possibly fedora related things?
16:41:25 <EvilBob> It's like a cop who spends his whole shift in the donut shop
16:41:39 <dcr226> EvilBob, are there any that don't?
16:41:40 * mock likes donuts
16:41:42 <Khaytsus> EvilBob: Safest business in town
16:41:42 <EvilBob> nirik: again, direct contact clears that up
16:41:47 * jsmith loves donuts too
16:41:54 * Khaytsus feeds jsmith a donut
16:41:58 <nirik> anyhow, there's lots of ideas here... perhaps we could try this next week to discuss on the list? or should we keep brainstorming here?
16:42:12 <dcr226> list
16:42:14 <nirik> EvilBob: It might be more that they are working in the CSI lab instead of being a beat cop. ;)
16:42:15 <BobLfoot> EvilBob: more like a beat cop who spends his entire shift at an undersover stake out to use your analogy on niriks point
16:42:24 <EvilBob> nirik: If we contact them and they say "Hey I'm busy bulding mousetrap v34.6" we know why
16:42:31 * Khaytsus could totally go undercover as a homeless person
16:42:44 * mock likes steak
16:42:55 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah. That might be a reasonable compromise... say once a year or something...
16:43:00 <EvilBob> if we know why it is a lot different than.... ENOCLUE
16:43:16 <thomasj> right
16:43:21 <Khaytsus> I match that flag sometimes
16:44:00 <EvilBob> In thomas' case we have known, he has been around, just not as active and has not need to be oped when he was around.
16:44:03 <Southern_Gentlem> say the first of each year we contact everyone and ask would you like to remain having op priveleges in the #fedora channel yes or no
16:44:04 <nirik> dear $nick, you are a #fedora operator and we haven't seen you around lately. We miss you. Please write. ;)
16:44:08 <EvilBob> See you are an example again
16:44:19 <EvilBob> nirik: Exactly
16:44:26 <thomasj> :)
16:44:28 <BobLfoot> just MHO but quality ops have an obligation to remain communicative to the org.  If they are going off line for a while {personal or otherwise} they should let nirik, EvilBob or a few of us know.
16:44:36 <dcr226> s/miss/remember :)
16:44:37 * thomasj starts to like being an example ;)
16:44:38 <Khaytsus> nirik: Like my bank "We haven't seen you in a while, come check out our latest javascript and flash website.  It's even slower and bugger than ever!"
16:44:45 <EvilBob> nirik: and if we hear nothing... we remove them and if they come back I don't see why they would have to be revetted
16:45:19 <EvilBob> Southern_Gentlem: How about beta of each release?
16:45:24 <zmore> "/ns info nickname" to see how long since the last nickserv login.
16:45:43 <nirik> EvilBob: right. they could be re-instated I suppose.
16:45:45 <dcr226> ".last #fedora {nick}"
16:45:49 <EvilBob> zmore: That does not count in distro jumped
16:45:55 <dcr226> ups, meant seen
16:46:32 <nirik> a number on the list are obviously active... wouldn't need to ping them really...
16:46:38 <EvilBob> We all know people that have been very active in Fedora and #fedora that could have or perhaps should have been ops that have moved on.
16:47:11 <nirik> anyhow, sounds like we have some kind of rough outline to at least continue on the list...
16:47:18 <EvilBob> just asking nickserv isn't enough
16:47:56 <dcr226> ask nickser and zodbot
16:48:04 <dcr226> oh, there's a v missing
16:48:25 <nirik> when the sig started up, we pinged all currently listed ops via memoserv.
16:48:33 <nirik> and removed some that didn't answer.
16:49:00 <EvilBob> nirik: I think memoserv and email should be enough
16:49:11 <EvilBob> nirik: some block memoserv message
16:49:17 <nirik> I think we used memoserv since we didn't have email for all of them.
16:49:22 <EvilBob> I know I never see them because of my bouncer
16:49:47 <EvilBob> well NOW we have addresses because of FAS and the list
16:49:47 <Southern_Gentlem> EvilBob,  i would be ok with that as well
16:49:52 <dcr226> there's loads of options. I reckon - decide criteria first, then communication method after
16:50:12 <EvilBob> Oh about the list...
16:50:22 <EvilBob> I am losing messages in the mud
16:50:40 <EvilBob> I can't get filters wrking in my web client
16:50:56 <thomasj> Ok, so is my name off the discussion about removing? We have dinner now, so i have to leave.. sorry
16:51:03 <EvilBob> could we please get [IRC] or something added on the subject?
16:51:13 <EvilBob> thomasj: IMO Yes
16:51:18 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah, I can do that... how about [irc-support-sig] ?
16:51:32 <EvilBob> nirik: Some have issues with length I know
16:51:38 <nirik> thomasj: I hope so, and I hope you will be able to be more active too... :)
16:51:52 <thomasj> nirik, i will, i try really hard
16:51:59 <EvilBob> thomasj: As long as we can force you out again when we miss you.
16:52:08 <nirik> thats odd, length shouldn't matter normally I wouldn't think.
16:52:10 <thomasj> Sure :)
16:52:22 <EvilBob> nirik: "people" have the issue
16:52:33 <dcr226> thomasj, thanks for the help on #fedora over the last couple of weeks btw
16:52:34 <EvilBob> nirik: when they subject scan
16:52:35 <nirik> PICNIC error
16:52:56 <EvilBob> nirik: What ever you think is best
16:53:11 <nirik> I guess I can do IRC, but I think thats confusing. People might think it's from freenode or something.
16:53:12 <EvilBob> I vote for short and sweet personally.
16:53:23 <thomasj> dcr226, i did not much, but thank you :)
16:53:23 <EvilBob> IRC-SIG
16:53:24 <nirik> you should be able to filter on "List-Id:"
16:53:32 <nirik> thats the best way
16:53:33 <EvilBob> nirik: it is a bug
16:53:55 <EvilBob> nirik: I have not had the time yet to change/upgrade tools
16:54:04 * BobLfoot well I'm out - l8r
16:54:10 <nirik> ah, well, we can tweak it out of band...
16:54:23 <nirik> lets take the inactive thing to the list and end the meeting?
16:54:31 <EvilBob> +1
16:54:49 <EvilBob> Oh I want to note quick
16:55:27 <EvilBob> Red Hat and Fedora are asking for help with a trademark issue, see stickster_afk's blog for more info
16:55:36 <EvilBob> it is also on a list, FAB I think
16:55:49 <nirik> yep. Please do
16:56:05 <EvilBob> advisory-board
16:56:42 <nirik> thanks for the note.
16:56:43 <EvilBob> thanks
16:56:58 <nirik> ok, closing out now... continue on list. Thanks for all the great work everyone. ;)
16:57:01 <nirik> #endmeeting