16:00:25 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2010-09-09)
16:00:25 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Sep  9 16:00:25 2010 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:25 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:25 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
16:00:25 <nirik> #topic init process
16:00:25 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
16:00:28 * DiscordianUK taps
16:00:36 <DiscordianUK> Is this thing on?
16:00:44 <Southern_Gentlem> and recording
16:00:45 <nirik> I think it is, yep. ;)
16:01:31 * dcr226 waves
16:01:42 * Lnxmad nods
16:01:54 <EvilBob> mock: You were going to chair this week to give nirik a break?
16:01:58 * Sonar_Gal says hello room
16:02:24 <nirik> oh? I'd be happy to have other folks take over running meetings if they like... ;)
16:02:38 <nirik> mock: you offering to do so? ;)
16:03:03 <EvilBob> What's that I hear? Is it... could it be... a train?
16:03:04 * thomasj here
16:03:43 <EvilBob> THink he has stage fright
16:03:54 <nirik> might have just stepped away for a few.
16:04:03 <nirik> anyhow, lets go ahead and get started...
16:04:09 <nirik> #topic Week in review
16:04:09 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
16:04:20 <nirik> this is a double week there due to issues with logging. ;)
16:04:20 <mock> oops sorry
16:04:39 <mock> order, order
16:04:54 <mock> yes, i'd like to order a plate of bacon
16:05:19 * nirik hands mock some bacon.
16:05:31 * DiscordianUK notes I'm off the list thankfully
16:05:37 * mock munches on bacon and checks out the stats...
16:06:22 <nirik> 7 kicks in the last week... 5 of which were paste flood prevention
16:06:50 <Lnxmad> What about spam...like name changes?
16:07:01 <zcat> and 2 for the semi-decent troll.
16:07:12 <mock> semi-decent?
16:07:27 <zcat> what? I didn't drop a name. he was semi-decent. :)
16:07:43 <nirik> Lnxmad: there was someone who was banned for not fixing their autoaway, yep.
16:07:51 <mock> oh
16:07:51 <dcr226> anyone think these stats aren't from this week?
16:07:53 <nirik> anyhow, anything folks would like to note from the last week?
16:08:04 <nirik> dcr226: it's the last 2 weeks due to issues with logging.
16:08:20 <dcr226> oh right, ok
16:08:51 <Southern_Gentlem> Lnxmad,  and that person was asked repeated to kill the autoscripting and was pointed to the channel faq which says not to do that
16:09:03 <Lnxmad> I do recall
16:09:53 <nirik> it was a pretty typical week... some more f14 interest...
16:09:59 <EvilBob> Lnxmad: THink of it this way, if every one of the 430 people changed their nick only 6 times a day, arrive at work, leave for lunch, arrive at work, leave for home, arrive home, go to bed...
16:10:31 <EvilBob> Lnxmad: At what point does one draw the line?
16:10:48 * plarsen strides in fashionably late
16:11:08 <EvilBob> dcr226: Yes thank you for reminding me of the away messages to deal with bodily functions
16:11:15 <DiscordianUK> f14 stuff will grow obviously as we approach the beta
16:11:17 <Lnxmad> There should be hardly any name changes. Unless you are a mod/admin
16:11:25 <Lnxmad> someone who is "on-call"
16:11:37 <nirik> some name changing is just in the noise...
16:11:48 <nirik> but if it happens often it's anoying. ;)
16:12:21 * mock doens't understand why we all just can't use /away
16:12:36 <nirik> shall we move along?
16:12:42 * mock is ready
16:12:46 <DiscordianUK> Let's please
16:12:50 <nirik> #topic trac instance setup
16:12:51 <EvilBob> mock: Most of us do
16:12:58 <nirik> so, we have trac in place.
16:13:04 <nirik> plarsen worked on the front page...
16:13:12 <nirik> I think it's open for business.
16:13:23 <DiscordianUK> many thanks plarsen
16:13:24 <nirik> Can someone file a test feedback ticket for us to confirm it all works?
16:13:32 <EvilBob> Yeah plarsen you rock
16:13:40 <plarsen> Any changes needed/suggestions etc. let me know.
16:13:47 <plarsen> Any feedback on the "op action" page?
16:13:53 <plarsen> Or should we just drop the idea?
16:14:22 <thomasj> Is the trac already set up to mail us?
16:14:40 <nirik> thomasj: it should mail the list, but I want to make sure it's allowed to post. ;)
16:14:49 <thomasj> nirik, cool, thanks
16:15:02 <EvilBob> I know the url was pointed out in the channel several times yesterday
16:15:15 <nirik> yep.
16:15:39 <plarsen> Should we have a bit.ly address alias in #topic for the page?
16:16:01 <dcr226> yeah
16:16:05 <EvilBob> plarsen: Personally no
16:16:24 <EvilBob> I hate short address aliases
16:16:26 <fenris02> why bother?  the topic is short enough now.
16:16:36 <EvilBob> you never know what is behind door number 2
16:16:45 <dcr226> oh right, yeah - add it to the topic, don't care about the url
16:17:00 <mock> only if the address doesn't get dumped in a timely manner
16:17:01 <nirik> I'd say add it to the web page.
16:17:08 <Khaytsus> EvilBob: Now I promised I'd never lemonp*y you again
16:17:09 <DiscordianUK> +1
16:17:15 <dcr226> LOL
16:17:28 <EvilBob> LOL
16:18:21 <fenris02> actually, the "not getting updates" item should really be moved to common_bugs page.
16:18:44 * DiscordianUK nods
16:18:47 <Khaytsus> It's on every fp.org page, right?
16:18:47 <nirik> probibly, it should get at least fixed for new installs tho.
16:19:13 <fenris02> Sure, but at this point, it is truly a "common bug" for semi-updated or not-updated hosts.
16:19:30 <plarsen> nirik, there should be a link on the web page to the irc-support site. Definitely. Just wondered what the thought was on how users would know about the feedback option?
16:19:31 <DiscordianUK> Yep it's non-current
16:20:04 <nirik> plarsen: well, we could note it on the channel faq page?
16:20:18 <EvilBob> nirik: Yes for sure
16:20:19 <plarsen> +1 nirik
16:20:27 <EvilBob> nirik: I like it in the topic also personally
16:21:03 <nirik> ok, if we can come up with a good short way to add it.
16:21:08 <EvilBob> the channel topic historically had a lot of good and helpful information, at some point the easy URLs were removed
16:21:21 <nirik> EvilBob: at some point it became TLDR
16:21:26 <plarsen> nirik, that's why I suggested the bit.ly option
16:21:41 <Southern_Gentlem> plarsen,  whats the url
16:21:45 <nirik> I dislike those as you can't tell what they point to really.
16:21:56 <plarsen> Southern_Gentlem, https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/
16:22:10 <EvilBob> and now it's NIDR?
16:22:17 <EvilBob> No Info
16:22:32 <nirik> it's pointing to the faq... we should add things there/
16:22:48 <plarsen> nirik, Agree - I'm a bit suspect about them too. Depends on the source I find them in, I guess.
16:23:11 <EvilBob> Yeah multiple clicks to get info is a good thing.... Marketing Genius...
16:23:46 <EvilBob> All the books on web design are going to have to be re-written
16:23:56 <nirik> Fedora 12 & 13 end-user support. Please READ: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Channel_FAQ | for feedback: https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/
16:24:42 <nirik> EvilBob: I was agreeing with you, but feel free to get cranky at me anyhow.
16:25:24 <nirik> in general we shouldn't just toss junk into the topic as then it will get too long again.
16:25:33 <nirik> this may be a case where we wish to
16:25:37 <DiscordianUK> yep
16:25:51 <DiscordianUK> I think there is a case for this
16:26:01 * zmore == zcat
16:26:25 <nirik> frankly I think the only feedback we are likely to get is from people we point to it...
16:26:32 <fenris02> bit.ly type things work if the link is really horribly long.  the #fedora topic is not.
16:26:57 <DiscordianUK> People don't read topics anyway
16:27:07 <DiscordianUK> we know this
16:27:28 <zmore> a tinyurl wouldn't be so bad. that way, for many people, the entire topic would fit without scrolling
16:27:50 <zmore> gets cut off at "edora_Chan..." here.
16:28:14 <zmore> so, a tinyurl wouldn't completely fit the topic in the field here.
16:28:17 <zmore> *shrug*
16:28:33 <EvilBob> But when you join the channel every client I have ever seen puts it on the screen
16:28:39 <nirik> I think pointing to the faq and having more info there is the way to go... yes, it's another click...
16:29:16 <DiscordianUK> IRC is an interesting medium
16:29:28 <plarsen> DiscordianUK, some clients don't even show it unless you ask for it. I've found them most useful when looking for a channel mostly. I definitely don't notice changes in the topic from day to day unless I'm told to look for them.
16:29:46 <DiscordianUK> You have people like me who have used IRC since we got on the net
16:29:46 <dcr226> stick it in the faq, if we get no feedback, put it in the topic
16:30:16 <EvilBob> 99% of the time if we are sending someone to a site for an answer, while we are on the topic topic, should fedora Solved be added back in?
16:30:25 <plarsen> EvilBob, depends. Some write it once and it scrolls up, others has an option to show it if you so please. Others like xchat just shows a line of the isize of the window. Which will not show the whole topic most of the time (as zmore pointed out)
16:30:26 <DiscordianUK> and people who use things gaim/pidgin
16:30:34 <nirik> dcr226: +1
16:30:40 <EvilBob> there is no reason that an item in the faq can't be in the topic also
16:30:53 <nirik> except then we go back to a long ass topic...
16:31:10 <DiscordianUK> which we are trying to avoid
16:31:16 <EvilBob> long? we used to have to remove spaces to get everything in
16:31:37 <EvilBob> if you put the whole topic in there 4 times you would maybe be that close
16:31:50 <dcr226> how about this as a compromise. EvilBob yesterday had a copy/paste statement for requesting feedback from peeps. Why don't we have @feedback on the bot, which points users to the feedback page
16:32:05 <nirik> dcr226: sure, that sounds good/easy to do.
16:32:06 <DiscordianUK> We can drop the last topic item now
16:32:40 <dcr226> like @feedback nirik  , which could (if needed) only be available to +o
16:32:48 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah, and if we start adding a bunch more things we will get back to that point. ;) I guess I don't care if we add feedback link tho...
16:33:35 <EvilBob> SO how is this decided? Do we have a policy?
16:33:57 <dcr226> vote
16:34:18 <nirik> what are we deciding?
16:34:24 <nirik> @feedback dcr226
16:34:27 <DiscordianUK> +1 remove the old last item and put it in FAQ
16:34:40 <dcr226> +1 @feedback bot alias
16:34:44 <nirik> @feedback dcr226
16:34:44 <fedbot> dcr226: Please visit our trac instance at https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ and file a feedback ticket telling us how we can improve things in #fedora. Thanks in advance for your feedback.
16:34:51 <dcr226> perfect (imo)
16:34:54 <EvilBob> dcr226: Cool, later I will have a meeting of me, myself and I. We will vote on the topic. I am sure it can get pushed through.
16:35:00 <DiscordianUK> +1 add the @feedback alias
16:35:00 <plarsen> gotta luv the bot
16:35:11 <dcr226> EvilBob, what? I'm not invited?
16:35:18 <nirik> EvilBob: what would you like to see done exactly with the topic? example please?
16:35:37 <EvilBob> Please visit our trac instance at https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ and file a feedback ticket telling us about your experience in #fedora. Thanks in advance for your feedback.
16:35:53 <EvilBob> I'm just saying, there should be a policy
16:36:06 <EvilBob> as it is now YOU decide what is going there
16:36:30 <nirik> No. I'm saying we should try and reach a consensus. Do you think that is not possible?
16:36:50 <EvilBob> You already stated your opinion
16:36:50 <DiscordianUK> Fedora 12 & 13 end-user support. Please READ: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Channel_FAQ | Please use @feedback to give us feedback on problems?
16:37:03 <nirik> @feedback EvilBob
16:37:04 <fedbot> EvilBob: Please visit our trac instance at https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ and file a feedback ticket telling us about your experience in #fedora. Thanks in advance for your feedback.
16:37:09 <DiscordianUK> My suggestion
16:37:15 <nirik> DiscordianUK: the @feedback will not allow them to add feedback.
16:37:16 <dcr226> s/on problems//
16:37:26 <EvilBob> nirik: that @feedback looks great
16:37:29 <DiscordianUK> Okay , withdrawn
16:37:36 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah, I like it too. ;)
16:37:43 <nirik> now, back to topic. :)
16:38:20 <nirik> Fedora 12 & 13 end-user support. Please READ: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Channel_FAQ | Visit https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ to give us feedback
16:38:33 <nirik> or do we want more / less in there?
16:38:36 <DiscordianUK> +1
16:38:37 <EvilBob> We should have a policy in place for the topic, if not a single op could choose to add something when no one else is around and then what...
16:38:40 <plarsen> +1
16:39:06 <Khaytsus> Exactly,t hen what?
16:39:07 <Khaytsus> It's longer?
16:39:23 <EvilBob> Should it be that 2 or 3 active in the ops channel should agree about the topic change?
16:39:25 <nirik> EvilBob: a single op could /clear the channel, or ban all the other ops. Do we think this is likely? has it ever happened?
16:39:35 <dcr226> EvilBob, +1, works for me
16:39:50 <EvilBob> nirik: not really, fedbot will not let me kick an op
16:39:59 * thomasj scratches head about the long or short topic discussion..
16:40:05 <dcr226> EvilBob, you can /op and kick an on
16:40:08 <dcr226> op*
16:40:09 <zmore> -1 for two nuclear keys for topic change
16:40:10 <plarsen> I think it's a good thing that any OP can change the topic. It could be helpful for what-ever is goiing on. Later, another OP can change it again. As long as they're not changing it at the same time.
16:40:28 <zmore> just bring it up in #fedora-ops if it's a big deal
16:40:50 <DiscordianUK> Sometimes ops do have to update topics if say a service has died
16:40:55 <thomasj> Have we done anything wrong with the topic the last couple years?
16:41:01 <EvilBob> thomasj: yes
16:41:04 <plarsen> +1 DiscordianUK
16:41:05 <thomasj> What?
16:41:11 <EvilBob> thomasj: a lot of good information was removed
16:41:32 <thomasj> I just dont get why that is a topic at all.
16:42:16 <EvilBob> there should be a link to Get Fedora for example
16:42:18 <nirik> it's one click to get to the faq page... is that so much more difficult than having the info in the topic? and we don't have to remove spaces and use tinyurls to make things fit.
16:42:39 <thomasj> Ok, now i understand.
16:42:44 * nirik wouldn't mind that.
16:42:54 <DiscordianUK> I always heads up changes to the -ops channel if I have to do so
16:43:06 <EvilBob> We are pointing people to fedorasolved.org all day, everyday
16:43:24 <dcr226> why don't we try a few different options on -ops first, then agree what the channel topic can look like?
16:43:36 <dcr226> we all use different clients after all
16:44:13 <nirik> EvilBob: would you care to propose a /topic? or work on one to propose?
16:44:26 <EvilBob> I just think that there should be more than a single point of failure for the topic setting, I suggest 3 active ops in -ops agree before changing
16:44:35 <dcr226> +1
16:44:39 <dcr226> move on :)
16:44:58 <nirik> EvilBob: what if it's the middle of the night and there is an outage and only one active op?
16:45:07 <DiscordianUK> Exactly
16:45:08 <nirik> that seems like bad red tape. ;)
16:45:16 <DiscordianUK> It does yes
16:45:20 <EvilBob> nirik: then the channel is dead and no one will notice anyhow
16:45:35 <thomasj> 3 active ops have to decide to change the topic? Wow.
16:45:36 <nirik> the channel could well be active, just only one op handy.
16:45:37 <plarsen> +1 nirik. The topic is easily changed by any op. If there's a violation of trust, take it up in -ops ?
16:45:49 <DiscordianUK> +1
16:46:15 * EvilBob shrugs
16:46:17 <zmore> EvilBob, have you ever worked for the government? :)
16:46:18 <nirik> plarsen: that seems sane to me.
16:46:21 <DiscordianUK> I know I'm accountable for what I do as an op
16:46:25 <thomasj> zmore, lol
16:46:26 <zmore> "i'd like that in triplicate!"
16:47:01 <nirik> if it's not urgent, bring up the topic change ideas in a meeting, if it's urgent consult with whoever is around and then do it.
16:47:13 <plarsen> zmore, today we just add 10 people to the CC and keep sending changed documents by emails so you can't figure out how to get the current version ...
16:47:17 <EvilBob> What you think is a good idea may not be a good idea to everyone else
16:47:20 <DiscordianUK> I always discuss in -ops
16:47:23 <nirik> anyhow, shall we move on? or is there more on this topic?
16:47:30 <dcr226> move on
16:47:45 <DiscordianUK> if there is anyone else
16:47:45 <nirik> #topic Off topic policy discussion
16:47:51 <nirik> this was brought up on the list.
16:48:12 <dcr226> the gist being, off-topic is cool so long as there's nothing outstanding.
16:48:25 <dcr226> its a rule of thumb now, I just think it should be universally accepted
16:48:35 <plarsen> +1
16:48:37 <dcr226> and not to shove people info -social when its not really needed
16:48:38 <DiscordianUK> That is the accepted idea
16:48:44 <DiscordianUK> +1
16:48:45 <nirik> My understanding of our policy on off topic chit chat is: It's fine as long as the channel is not otherwise busy with support requests. Heated or discussions that interfere with support should be asked to move to another venue.
16:49:09 <nirik> yeah, so no need to jump on someone for off topic if the channel is not busy.
16:49:18 <EvilBob> Just because you are not comfortable with the topic does not mean it has to move
16:50:02 <thomasj> The off-topic goes to -social was made so people are not afraid to ask support question.
16:50:14 <dcr226> thomasj, I think it works the other way actually
16:50:27 <dcr226> I think if the channel is silent and formal - its harder to ask a question
16:50:33 <EvilBob> and did it's part to kill part of the community in the process
16:50:38 <nirik> EvilBob: sure. Unless it means people are interfering with folks trying to get support.
16:50:41 <thomasj> I was just pointing out why we made it.
16:50:51 <dcr226> thomasj, oh, gotya
16:51:07 <nirik> anyhow, we all in agreement here?
16:51:11 <DiscordianUK> the problem perhaps is that -social isn't perhaps the right place for offtopic
16:51:12 <thomasj> I personally think, offtopic chitchat is ok.
16:51:43 <nirik> DiscordianUK: depends on what it is.
16:51:48 <EvilBob> It was made because some that are far to uptight thought that is was wrong to discuss anything but kernel boot time parameters in the channel.
16:51:55 <nirik> some people should be pointed to #defocus or whatever.
16:51:55 <dcr226> -social is for bacon and anything else (within freenode guidelines) imo
16:52:12 <thomasj> +1
16:53:01 <thomasj> As nirik said: +1
16:53:02 <zmore> +1 more OT tolerance
16:53:33 * nirik nods.
16:53:35 * DiscordianUK will comply
16:53:38 <nirik> ok, shall we move along then?
16:53:46 <EvilBob> the point of "interference" is the problem
16:53:55 <dcr226> discretion
16:54:04 <EvilBob> when does it really interfere
16:54:16 <dcr226> we are all ops because of our ability to make judgements
16:54:28 <EvilBob> we need to think about that ourselves before sending someone away
16:54:48 <EvilBob> just because the op is distracted, does not mean the users are
16:54:57 <EvilBob> Something to think about.
16:55:06 <dcr226> yeah, but the op is the person who is trying to help
16:55:15 <nirik> in two ways, IMHO: a) if there is a heated debate, people who join may think they are in the wrong place, or be afraid to ask their technical question because this other discussion is happening. b) If people are sending enough volume to the channel where questions are lost and people can't read up fast enough to help others.
16:55:15 <plarsen> EvilBob, Not sure interfearing is the issue. But chit-chat can easily get the overhand, and we're all different. there may be non-tech/fedora topics that would cause "bad blood" between us like-minded fedora folks here.
16:55:28 <dcr226> EvilBob, if you were being distracted, I'd do my best to point people away so that $user could get his support
16:55:57 <EvilBob> plarsen: We had no social channel for years and guess what, things still worked
16:56:26 <EvilBob> plarsen: Some even say they worked better
16:56:40 <zmore> -social was also partly created for a place to swear like a sailor
16:56:46 <Khaytsus> Let's not go down that dark path shall we
16:56:50 <zmore> since #fedora is supposed to be Disney
16:56:57 <EvilBob> You're F*cking right
16:57:02 <plarsen> EvilBob, but still you have one now. You asked what the issue is, and it seems everyone here is saying chit-chat isn't prohibited but focus should be on support.  If the focus is taken away from support there's a problem. It seems to me everyone agrees to that?
16:57:19 <nirik> so, lets all try and be more tolerant of off topic stuff for now? or any other action people would like to see?
16:57:44 <thomasj> Another +1 to be more tolerant
16:57:46 <Lnxmad> You shouldnt let the room get dry though
16:57:57 <EvilBob> nirik: I'm good, just remind people to look beyond themselves
16:58:00 * nirik gets a bucket of water.
16:58:04 <thomasj> Without beating the horse to death befroe we even start
16:58:07 * Khaytsus ftp's Lnxmad a copy of the internet to play with
16:58:14 <thomasj> *before
16:58:15 <nirik> ok, we have another topic we should try and fit in here...
16:58:19 <nirik> #topic kick and ban bot messages
16:58:24 <EvilBob> Lnxmad: the word that has been used to describe it lately is sterile
16:58:32 <Lnxmad> ah
16:58:36 <nirik> I would like to add to any of the ops aliases that kick/ban the name of the operator taking the action.
16:58:42 <dcr226> EvilBob, its a lie - she doesn't know what she's talking about!!!
16:58:43 <nirik> Any objections?
16:58:49 <dcr226> nirik, none here, I do it anyway
16:58:50 <plarsen> +1
16:58:51 <thomasj> + 10000
16:58:57 <EvilBob> +1
16:59:04 <DiscordianUK> I think that's a good idea
16:59:05 <DiscordianUK> +1
16:59:06 <zmore> +1 for more accountability
16:59:06 <EvilBob> nirik: I would go a step farther
16:59:07 <Khaytsus> nirik: No objection here
16:59:21 <EvilBob> append the senders nick to "say" messages also
16:59:34 <Khaytsus> I don't use it anyway, as I a moron and never seem to do the right thing and it ignores me. :)
16:59:37 <zmore> but leave @say and @do alone! :)
16:59:47 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah, that may be harder to do... but I can look at that code. ;)
16:59:48 <EvilBob> People should not be hiding behind the bot or playing games with it
16:59:53 <nirik> EvilBob: +1
16:59:54 <zmore> those are supybot built-in's anyway
17:00:00 * dcr226 plugs -botgames
17:00:01 <thomasj> EvilBob, +1
17:00:08 <nirik> Khaytsus: see me in ops after the meeting, we can get it working.
17:00:21 <nirik> zmore: yes, in the "Anonymous" plugin...
17:00:27 <nirik> so that may make it hard to fix. ;)
17:00:30 <EvilBob> The Noon siren just sounded
17:00:39 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
17:00:45 <nirik> anything for open floor?
17:01:00 <zmore> EvilBob, aye. the odor of salmon is wafting my way...
17:01:22 <EvilBob> I would like to thank everyone for supporting their choice of Virtual Machine tools
17:01:40 <dcr226> nirik, I can probably patch that plugin if you want, will take me a couple of days to get round to it though
17:01:51 <EvilBob> I have been paying attention to that a little and it's great to see the choices
17:01:56 <nirik> dcr226: cool... I can look and see how much work it would be too.
17:02:10 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah, there's a pile of them these days.
17:03:13 <dcr226> EvilBob, you can always point people at #fedora-botgames to smash the life out of bots
17:03:14 <EvilBob> NOTE: I don't agree with all the choices but as long as you can sleep with yours...
17:03:39 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone!
17:03:44 <EvilBob> dcr226: Not the games I was referring to
17:04:02 * dcr226 *shrug*
17:04:05 <nirik> #endmeeting