16:00:01 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2010-09-23)
16:00:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Sep 23 16:00:01 2010 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:01 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
16:00:01 <nirik> #topic init process
16:00:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
16:00:34 * nirik passes out bacon.
16:00:40 <Khaytsus> .moarbacon Khaytsus
16:00:40 <zodbot> Khaytsus, here, have some more bacon
16:00:43 * Sonar_Gal grabs a slice
16:02:01 * N3LRX gobbles up a piece
16:02:02 * nirik waits for more people to show up. Perhaps they don't realize the bacon will get cold.
16:02:38 * DiscordianUK is here
16:03:46 * EvilBob 
16:03:51 * zmore 
16:03:54 <nirik> ok, not too much on the agenda here today, so I guess lets go ahead.
16:04:04 <nirik> #topic Week in review
16:04:04 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
16:05:03 <nirik> 7 kicks in the last week. 3 of them paste flooding. The rest "other issues"
16:05:19 <nirik> 3 bans
16:05:47 <nirik> all 15minute ones.
16:06:06 <DiscordianUK> It has been very quiet
16:06:19 <EvilBob> Word seems to be getting around that we are the place to get help with anything under the sun
16:06:20 <nirik> yeah, pretty quiet week.
16:06:31 * nirik was busy with other stuff, so hasn't been in channel much this last week.
16:06:33 <DiscordianUK> I'm hardly around atm and still no 6 on the stats
16:06:54 <EvilBob> athlete's foot to windows software
16:07:15 <DiscordianUK> So it seems
16:07:22 <nirik> yum install foot-powder. ;)
16:07:24 <EvilBob> how much should we be putting up with before removing and or requesting that someone else remove them?
16:07:54 <nirik> well, I thought we were going to all try and be more tolerant about off topic chatter?
16:08:13 <DiscordianUK> There's one guy who keeps asking #linux 101 questions
16:08:26 <DiscordianUK> We've told him to read RUTE
16:08:37 <DiscordianUK> But that's too hard
16:09:15 <DiscordianUK> so this evening he's said how do I unzip a file (I'm too lazy to read the man page)
16:09:20 <Khaytsus> I think that's always going to happen.  Very new users or users who jus twant "an answer" are perpetual.
16:09:21 <EvilBob> off topic and insistently... stupid and even abusive
16:09:43 <nirik> Khaytsus: right.
16:09:48 <DiscordianUK> I think he's at the point of being close to a troll
16:09:59 <EvilBob> "you're a jerk because I will not help myself"
16:10:31 <EvilBob> I'm paraphrasing of course
16:10:43 * DiscordianUK isn't gonna name names
16:10:56 <zmore> the city/name so nice they named it twice?
16:11:03 <nirik> when/if they are abusive they should be removed... or is there something different about this case that merits discussion in meeting?
16:11:21 <DiscordianUK> Something like that zmore aye
16:11:22 <EvilBob> It's not a single case IMO
16:12:06 <EvilBob> "Help me run my windows software so I can use my CentOS server..." WTF is up with that?
16:12:24 <EvilBob> How is that possibly Fedora related?
16:12:30 <nirik> direct them to ##windows or #centos.
16:12:32 <DiscordianUK> Quite
16:12:42 <DiscordianUK> Not our problem at all
16:13:03 <Khaytsus> Give them some leeway as long as others aren't actively needing help, but for very off topic subjects we should just send them on their way.
16:13:03 <EvilBob> What about the flat out lies about what they are running
16:13:28 <EvilBob> Users what will not answer questions until they look them up on google?
16:13:33 <DiscordianUK> The ones that lie and we catch em deserve bans
16:13:42 <Khaytsus> IMO we should also consider domain knowledge as well, like folks asking about Cobbler in Fedora.  Fedor ships Cobbler but there are other channels more suitable to answers.
16:14:07 <DiscordianUK> I know very little about Cobbler
16:14:41 * nirik doesn't see any need to change policy. People who are offtopic should be redirected, if they become abusive or disruptive, they should be removed so others can get help...
16:14:43 <Southern_Gentlem> Khaytsus,  i seee nothing wrong in saying i am sorry i know nothing aobut cobbler maybe you should try in #channelname
16:15:01 <DiscordianUK> +
16:15:07 <DiscordianUK> +1 even
16:15:17 <Khaytsus> Southern_Gentlem: Right, just saying that there are clear times we should redirect even if it's on topic :)
16:15:39 <EvilBob> I think letting it go on and on for an hour or even a half hour, disruptive or not, is excessive
16:15:53 <EvilBob> It just burns people out
16:16:19 <Khaytsus> EvilBob: Agreed, some users won't let it go or are more interested in arguing it than taking advice, but again, that's another common theme sometimes...  XY problems :)
16:17:05 <plarsen> sorry, a "tad" late here.
16:17:21 <EvilBob> "I can't paste because I am too lazy to plug in an ethernet cable" or "stealing wireless from a neighbor"
16:17:42 <nirik> sure, we don't want anyone to burn out. Do remember if you find yourself being frustrated helping someone it's perfectly fine to step away and take a break and let someone else help them.
16:17:45 <EvilBob> Sorry IMO that is user FAIL, goodbye
16:18:36 <DiscordianUK> 'stealing wireless' I'd just refuse to help
16:18:47 <EvilBob> In the rare case that the wired ethernet device is needing a driver, fine... but when was the last time that actually happened
16:19:13 <DiscordianUK> happens occasionally with very very new hardware
16:19:39 <nirik> yeah, not much anymore.
16:19:42 <EvilBob> "That machine doesn't have internet" wifi theft
16:19:44 <nirik> I can't recall the last time.
16:19:48 <DiscordianUK> or corner cases like the Marvell SKGE driver on 64 bit
16:20:12 <DiscordianUK> Where it won't work if you have greater than 2Gb of RAM
16:20:17 <nirik> ok, so do we want to take any actions here? or just venting about off topic in the last week?
16:20:39 <DiscordianUK> I propose retain the status quo
16:20:50 <EvilBob> I say be less tolerant of clear bullshit
16:21:02 <EvilBob> It does not help anyone
16:21:24 <plarsen> EvilBob, -1. Better to just not help. Being rude should not be the MO in #fedora.
16:21:49 <EvilBob> plarsen: some other sucker is just going to step up over and over
16:22:00 * nirik notes again he wasn't able to be around much this week, so can't speak to specific cases, but do remove people who are abusive and disruptive.
16:22:09 <nirik> plarsen: no need to be rude
16:22:51 <nirik> anyhow, anything further from week in review?
16:23:11 <plarsen> nirik, I read "less tolerant" as becoming more rude/direct with people ...
16:23:12 <Southern_Gentlem> move on
16:23:38 <EvilBob> plarsen: yeah sugar coating it is always the best thing to do. </sarcasm>
16:23:42 <N3LRX> one can be direct without being rude.
16:23:43 <plarsen> EvilBob, so let them.
16:24:22 <nirik> #topic revisiting the topic topic
16:24:32 <nirik> how's the new topic doing? shall we leave it as is?
16:24:37 <EvilBob> I think the topic is fine
16:24:53 <DiscordianUK> +1
16:25:28 <DiscordianUK> On matters relating though I've been finding myself flung in -unreg a lot this week
16:25:51 <Sonar_Gal> DiscordianUK, Same here I am having to manually log into #fedora
16:25:59 <DiscordianUK> I can't see how the length of the topic affects that
16:26:05 <nirik> wonder if freenode has changed anything...
16:26:15 <DiscordianUK> But it certainly has changed since our last meeting
16:26:22 <EvilBob> I think one or more of the freenode server acting up
16:26:35 <Southern_Gentlem> check your client configs http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#identify
16:26:37 <zmore> DiscordianUK / Sonar_Gal, turns out you now need your nickserv passwd in the server field (in xchat). the nickserv field alone doesn't cut it anymore
16:26:50 <DiscordianUK> I've done that zmore
16:26:51 <EvilBob> zmore: I have those set and have had it happen
16:26:52 <zmore> had that problem on my 3 xchat clients
16:27:04 <DiscordianUK> But even that isn't 100% effective
16:27:06 <Sonar_Gal> zmore, Mine has been set that way since day one that I started using IRC
16:27:22 * nirik has no issues with the topic currently, fine with leaving it alone for now.
16:27:23 <zmore> both
16:27:26 <N3LRX> It's happened to me a couple of times but I think it was due to nickserv lag. My client joined channels too fast and ns did not authenticate me due to the lag.
16:27:55 <DiscordianUK> Just a heads up
16:28:11 <nirik> anything more on the topic topic?
16:28:35 <Southern_Gentlem> +1 to leave the topic alone
16:28:48 <DiscordianUK> +1 for this week
16:29:04 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
16:29:10 <nirik> Any items for open floor?
16:29:37 <nirik> Oh, I have one: I've signed up to do 2 irc classes. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom for more info
16:29:46 <nirik> if anyone else would like to teach, please do. ;)
16:30:03 <DiscordianUK> F13Beta is nearly on us
16:30:31 <Khaytsus> Next Tuesday right?  F14 of course ;)
16:30:32 <mock> isn't it gold today?  beta gold?
16:30:34 <EvilBob> 14
16:30:43 <EvilBob> 28th
16:30:43 <DiscordianUK> F14 yes sorry
16:30:44 * mock means 14 too
16:30:51 <nirik> yeah, next week.
16:31:11 <nirik> did we normally wipe ban lists at beta and start taking support questions?
16:31:23 <DiscordianUK> We did that on F12 and f13
16:31:25 * nirik should really note this stuff down so he doesn't have to go back and look.
16:31:26 <mock> oh, yes, 28th.  my bad.
16:32:22 <DiscordianUK> So I guess we should for this Beta
16:32:31 <nirik> #topic Beta prep
16:33:04 <nirik> ok, so any objections to wiping ban lists monday and offering support in #fedora for Beta stuff? Or do we wish to adjust that any this cycle?
16:33:17 <mock> nirik: you'd need to change the /topic
16:33:24 <nirik> mock: yep.
16:33:32 <Khaytsus> Fine with  me, atlhough with the ban list I say we keep any stuff (if we still have it?) like root user id etc
16:33:37 <mock> nirik: too late, though.  already voted to keep it as is.  :)
16:33:54 <DiscordianUK> I haven't so much as touched F14Beta yet
16:34:05 <Khaytsus> But yes, some initial beta support, but users will possibly need to move to -qa for some questions.  That's always a given.
16:34:14 <DiscordianUK> root is banned by ChanServ
16:34:20 <Khaytsus> aha k
16:34:25 <nirik> mock: it's fine to change our minds. ;) Congress does it all the time.
16:34:34 <mock> :)
16:34:38 <Khaytsus> nirik: And it doesn't cost millions when we do it
16:35:31 <nirik> ok, I don't see any objections, so we can go ahead and do that tuesday...
16:35:58 <nirik> #topic Open Floor redux
16:36:05 <nirik> any final items for open floor?
16:37:05 * nirik will close the meeting in a minute unless any new bacon comes up.
16:37:21 <Khaytsus> there's moer bacon?
16:37:30 <nirik> always.
16:37:56 <mock> Khaytsus: in -social
16:37:58 <mock> Khaytsus: lots
16:37:59 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone! Keep up the good helping
16:38:03 <nirik> #endmeeting