16:30:01 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2011-01-27)
16:30:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jan 27 16:30:01 2011 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:30:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:30:01 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
16:30:01 <nirik> #topic init process
16:30:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
16:30:07 <nirik> who all is around for meeting?
16:30:21 * EvilBob 
16:30:28 * DiscordianUK 
16:31:01 * plarsen sneaks in quietly
16:31:50 <aborticide> Evening, gentlemen.
16:31:58 * DiscordianUK wishes I was in Tempe however not possible
16:32:01 * nirik waves at aborticide
16:32:12 <FranciscoD> .fas FranciscoD
16:32:13 <zodbot> FranciscoD: ankursinha 'Ankur Sinha' <sanjay.ankur@gmail.com>
16:32:36 <aborticide> can we talk about which swear words are allowed in #fedora? you'll notice that even pg-13 movies have swear words in them
16:32:43 * FranciscoD will just sit in a corner and listen
16:32:47 * zcat waves
16:32:52 * FranciscoD waves to zodbot
16:32:55 * FranciscoD waves to zcat
16:32:59 <aborticide> if you want to provide greater coverage for people under 12, i think swearing is the least of their problems if they're on IRC at that age
16:33:03 <zcat> hey FranciscoD
16:33:10 <DiscordianUK> The meeting hasn't started yet
16:33:12 <FranciscoD> zcat: hello!
16:33:13 <nirik> aborticide: you can bring it up in the open floor part of the meeting if you like?
16:33:18 <zcat> FranciscoD, HELLO-er
16:33:25 <FranciscoD> zcat: how have you been :) ?
16:33:38 <nirik> ok, looks like we have a number of folks, lets go ahead and get started...
16:33:44 <nirik> #topic Week in review
16:33:44 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
16:34:06 <nirik> a reasonably typical week IMHO...
16:34:28 <aborticide> nirik: yes, but i've never been here before, so i don't know
16:34:42 <FranciscoD> +1 to typical
16:34:50 <nirik> aborticide: no worries. ;) we go through a few standard topics and then have a open floor at the end for any new thoughts.
16:34:51 <DiscordianUK> Fairly quiet
16:35:46 <zcat> FranciscoD, ya know... pleasantly cold... and poopy (speaking of... time for another baby butt-shower)
16:35:48 <nirik> anyone have anything they would like to note from the last week? common bugs or issues?
16:35:58 <FranciscoD> woah, my random quite is "didn't google give you anything". Makes sense ;)
16:36:10 <FranciscoD> zcat: heh, have fun at it XD
16:36:52 <nirik> #topic Tickets
16:36:52 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/report/1
16:37:00 <nirik> we have no tickets this week. ;)
16:37:01 <EvilBob> Any tickets?
16:37:06 <EvilBob> Bummer
16:37:08 <nirik> Do remember to ask people for feedback.
16:37:15 <nirik> @feedback everyone
16:37:53 <nirik> ok, moving on then...
16:38:01 <nirik> #topic Fudcon tempe
16:38:22 <nirik> For those folks who will be at fudcon, we should all try and meet up...
16:38:29 * plarsen is sad that he yet again is missing fudcon :(
16:38:39 <DiscordianUK> Same
16:38:41 <nirik> also, for those folks that couldn't make fudcon this time, there is #fedora-fudcon to talk with people who are there.
16:38:58 <DiscordianUK> heh
16:39:23 * FranciscoD will hang around on #fedora-fudcon, will probably not be at a fudcon for years to come :'(
16:39:23 <nirik> we should also make sure to note to people that some things may be slower than normal or not answered as quickly with everyone off at fudcon.
16:39:55 <FranciscoD> as long as it's general queries, we'll probably be able to handle it.
16:40:03 <nirik> sure, just something to remember.
16:40:12 <FranciscoD> the more advanced ones, which need nirik and fenrus02 etc., people will have to wait
16:40:26 <nirik> I should be on from there, but will probibly be distracted. ;)
16:40:42 <nirik> ok, anything else on the fudcon topic?
16:40:48 <EvilBob> FranciscoD: fenrus02 is not attending
16:41:03 <FranciscoD> EvilBob: then the channel will live ;)
16:41:31 * thomasj forgot to mention he's around as well.. sorry..
16:41:45 <EvilBob> thomasj: Cool
16:41:50 <nirik> welcome thomasj
16:41:50 <thomasj> :)
16:41:55 <nirik> ok, moving on...
16:41:59 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
16:42:02 <FranciscoD> thomasj has been busy :$
16:42:08 <FranciscoD> o/
16:42:12 * nirik looks... aborticide left.
16:42:16 * FranciscoD has a topic !
16:42:26 <FranciscoD> may I?
16:42:37 <EvilBob> No
16:42:40 <EvilBob> ;)
16:42:45 <FranciscoD> :(
16:42:49 <nirik> FranciscoD: sure, shoot. ;)
16:42:54 <EvilBob> Go for it
16:42:57 <FranciscoD> It's to do with getting more people into the channel to help
16:43:01 <FranciscoD> any suggestions?
16:43:06 <xXx_hazard> can we have something like <user> @info where user have to provide info about he has full install of fedora or using liveCD or liveUSB
16:43:51 <nirik> xXx_hazard: well, we have 'fpaste --sysinfo'
16:43:54 <FranciscoD> recently ambassadors have been planning classrooms to improve ambassadors techie levels, so I think it would be nice to have more people hanging around helping on #fedora
16:44:03 <nirik> FranciscoD: I'd love to get more folks involved... it's tough tho
16:44:19 <FranciscoD> it'll help users, and teach folks quite a bit (the way I learnt)
16:44:36 <DiscordianUK> There was a post on the planet about Ambassadors
16:44:46 <FranciscoD> nirik: I remember reading your blog post requesting folks to help troubleshoot
16:44:53 <EvilBob> You mean maybe some of them will start using/promoting Fedora then?
16:45:03 <DiscordianUK> I'd welcome Ambassadors on #fedora who are 100% committed to Fedora
16:45:22 <FranciscoD> I think we need to what is called "hang a carrot"? ;^)
16:45:27 <plarsen> DiscordianUK: there are Fedora Ambassadors who aren't 100% committed?
16:45:32 <nirik> EvilBob: running fedora in a virtualbox on windows isn't enough? ;)
16:45:40 <FranciscoD> A little bit of stimulation?
16:45:46 <DiscordianUK> Sure you see their blogs on FP
16:45:49 <nirik> FranciscoD: what did you have in mind?
16:46:05 <FranciscoD> I'm not sure, something like what the design team does, bounties etc.?
16:46:12 <EvilBob> plarsen: There are Fedora Ambassadors that seem to be more in to promoting Ubuntu than Fedora actually
16:46:17 <FranciscoD> not exactly the same thing, something similar I mean
16:46:23 <nirik> yeah, except it's hard to say 'help 5 users'...
16:46:24 <plarsen> DiscordianUK: hmmm - can you send me a link? I would be interested
16:46:36 <FranciscoD> EvilBob: there's nothing we can do about 'em
16:46:51 <nirik> we talked in the distant past about time slots... ie, sign up for an hour helping, etc.
16:46:52 <plarsen> EvilBob: Promoting? I've seen some use Ubuntu as an example and ask questions such as "why don't we do it more like that". I wouldn't call that Ubuntu advocacy?
16:46:57 <FranciscoD> nirik: yeah, I know. We'll need a different scale etc.
16:47:02 <EvilBob> FranciscoD: Heh, improve your screening process
16:47:13 <FranciscoD> EvilBob: meh, I aint wasting time on that :P
16:47:15 <EvilBob> plarsen: See what you want
16:47:24 <DiscordianUK> Plarsen : http://pierros.papadeas.gr/?p=197
16:47:28 * nirik notes that ambassadors are beyond the scope of this meeting, except where they help in #fedora. ;)
16:47:33 <plarsen> Thanks DiscordianUK
16:47:41 <DiscordianUK> It was crossposted to the Planet
16:47:46 <EvilBob> nirik: +1, sorry
16:47:56 <DiscordianUK> I apologise too
16:48:09 <nirik> anyhow, ideas to increase helpers in #fedora are always welcome...
16:48:11 * FranciscoD has that post on the "read when you have nothing else to do" list :D
16:48:33 <FranciscoD> nirik: well, once the classes start, I'm going to try and push folks into helping
16:48:52 <FranciscoD> carrot here is "apply your knowledge, interact with more people, learn more about fedora, get better"
16:48:59 <FranciscoD> how's that sound for a one liner ?
16:49:05 <nirik> one thing I have been toying with for other parts of fedora, but could apply here too:
16:49:19 <FranciscoD> and yes, rule #1 -> if you don't know, keep quiet, no guessing!
16:49:31 <nirik> create a list of easyfix stuff. (ie, wiki pages we want updated, reports or info we want gathered, etc).
16:49:39 <nirik> FranciscoD: sounds great to me.
16:49:41 * VileGent 
16:50:26 <FranciscoD> nirik: On these lines ;)?  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Remote_Mini_Wiki_Editing_FAD2_2011
16:50:40 <EvilBob> Not sure how teaching someone one day and having them help someone the next day is going to help anyone
16:51:04 <nirik> FranciscoD: sure... ;) the wiki needs lots of love
16:51:06 <FranciscoD> EvilBob: not immediately, over a period of time? I've learnt over a period of 3-4 years :D
16:51:25 * FranciscoD requests folks to take an hour out for the event mentioned about ;^)
16:51:35 <plarsen> nirik: I think that would be great. We all know, that quite a few that goes to #fedora hasn't done much "googling" or searching for answers at all.
16:52:18 <nirik> like any community/area, it's nice to join and just watch for a while and learn how the community works...
16:52:24 <FranciscoD> +1
16:52:43 <DiscordianUK> That's the old IRC/newgroup/mailling list way for sure
16:52:55 <FranciscoD> (and you also meet more people from the community)
16:53:06 <nirik> anyhow, I'd say if you can think of ways to get more people to join and watch/learn/help, please do so. ;)
16:53:47 <FranciscoD> can I use the stats for a blog post?
16:53:59 <EvilBob> And be prepared for backlash when you give bad advice
16:54:08 <FranciscoD> it might get some folks interested, seeing what happens on the channel etc.
16:54:11 <plarsen> Personally #fedora is a great place to network, pick up new tips and trends.  Being able to share knowledge/help is second to that.
16:54:30 <FranciscoD> EvilBob: always evil eh ;^)
16:54:33 <plarsen> So yes, getting people to hang out and just learn would be a great beginning
16:54:58 <nirik> FranciscoD: sure. I don't see why not.
16:56:15 <nirik> ok, anything else for open floor, or on this topic?
16:56:19 <EvilBob> Bad advice is bad advice
16:56:21 * FranciscoD fires up le blog
16:56:25 <VileGent> plarsen,  and that is what i tell the new people in the channel is hang out and log the channel and READ the logs
16:56:49 <FranciscoD> "How to learn more about Fedora"
16:57:07 <EvilBob> "I get permissions denied when trying to view a page on my webserver" "Oh disable SElinux and chmod it to 777"
16:57:08 <plarsen> VileGent: +1 - I've told people that too.
16:57:20 <FranciscoD> I think that will make a great post, #1 will obviously be "hang around in #fedora"
16:57:29 <FranciscoD> ;)
16:57:38 <VileGent> FranciscoD,  check and see if it is in the channel FAQ
16:57:55 <EvilBob> FranciscoD: One good thing to add, if you don't know the answer and can't help, DON'T GUESS.
16:57:56 <plarsen> VileGent: Actually, I get the reaction quite often that "I don't know enough to help out" meaning people seems to think you need to be quite knowlegeable to hang out in #fedora. I think correcting that misconception would help.
16:58:06 <VileGent> (not that anyone every reads said channel FAQ)
16:58:19 <DiscordianUK> I have read it
16:58:43 <FranciscoD> EvilBob: 22:27 < FranciscoD> and yes, rule #1 -> if you don't know, keep quiet, no guessing!
16:58:47 <FranciscoD> :P
16:59:12 * FranciscoD offers EvilBob coffee
16:59:18 <DiscordianUK> Hmmm and don't advocate OSes
16:59:48 <EvilBob> Nothing worse than helping someone to only have some other jump in to :help: half way though solving the problem also.
17:00:01 <DiscordianUK> yeah
17:00:18 <EvilBob> But then again even some of our experienced helpers/ops do that
17:00:50 <EvilBob> I don't think I have anything more
17:00:51 <mock> imma let you finish, but...
17:00:51 <DiscordianUK> True I've been guilty of that
17:01:47 <EvilBob> If I ever do it with out good reason, slap the spit out of my mouth please
17:02:01 <FranciscoD> correcting is alright, yes?
17:02:15 <nirik> correcting wrong information is very much appreciated.
17:02:28 <EvilBob> FranciscoD: Only if one knows the correct info
17:02:36 <FranciscoD> aye
17:02:43 <EvilBob> FranciscoD: the problem comes in when people "think"
17:02:47 <FranciscoD> basically stick to "only help if you're sure"
17:03:06 <FranciscoD> EvilBob: your chance to crack some whips then ;)
17:03:35 <plarsen> Which will then prevent most new people from even trying to help. We cannot have an ivory tower here that punishes people for just trying to help?
17:03:53 <FranciscoD> it's not punishing so much as gently correcting
17:04:00 <EvilBob> FranciscoD: A lot of times I just walk away with a parting shot "User: let me know when $HELPER is done so we can try to correct the damage"
17:04:10 <FranciscoD> "positive reinforcements"
17:04:12 <plarsen> If people say something wrong, they'll be corrected. It shouldn't be a rule that people need to think of themselves as experts to try to answer a question
17:04:48 <nirik> right.
17:05:22 <nirik> The only thing that might help that is a karma type system, which gets a bit complex.
17:05:34 <EvilBob> plarsen: so you are saying that giving bad info is good? Because they are not only not an expert but also have no clue at all?
17:05:39 <FranciscoD> "stay excellent to each other" always holds
17:06:17 <plarsen> EvilBob: I'm saying having information/answers is better than NO answers.  If someone says (as a question or answer) something wrong, others will chime in to correct. Why is that such a bad idea?
17:06:30 * EvilBob grumbles about that stupid saying
17:06:42 <EvilBob> plarsen: I disagree
17:07:10 <EvilBob> plarsen: there is not always someone around to correct wrong info
17:08:09 <FranciscoD> it's a personal responsibility, people will learn by observing others
17:08:19 <plarsen> EvilBob: Maybe - we started out by asking for more people to help out. I don't think putting the bar up so high that most people cannot pass it, helps.
17:08:26 <DiscordianUK> I've seen users give very very bad and dangerous advice in #fedora
17:08:36 <nirik> people will say incorrect things, we can't prevent that. We should ask them to not guess and be gracefull about being corrected if they are wrong.
17:08:59 <plarsen> DiscordianUK: I have too. There used to be guidelines on what NEVER to tell people in help; like even jokingly suggest "rm -rf /" etc.
17:09:14 <plarsen> nirik: +1
17:09:20 <DiscordianUK> That is still banned
17:09:22 <nirik> plarsen: there still is. ;) We should kick you for that! :)
17:09:40 * plarsen blushes
17:10:13 <nirik> anyhow, do we have anything further here? or should we call it a meeting? or is there something we should discuss further?
17:10:17 <EvilBob> plarsen: that's fine, you can help fix the damage, what's your email again?
17:11:40 <EvilBob> I've had enough stupid for today, lets move on
17:12:14 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone...
17:12:31 <nirik> #endmeeting