16:30:41 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2011-02-03)
16:30:41 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Feb  3 16:30:41 2011 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:30:41 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:30:41 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
16:30:41 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
16:30:41 <nirik> #topic init process
16:30:47 * EvilBob 
16:30:57 <nirik> who all is around for an exciting and thrilling irc-support-sig meeting! :)
16:31:00 <N3LRX> N3LRX
16:31:08 * jsmith lurks
16:31:45 <EvilBob> I'm on my Cell modem so I may have a little lag
16:31:55 <billings> I am here.
16:32:03 * thomasj here
16:33:16 <nirik> ok, lets go ahead and get started...
16:33:20 <nirik> #topic Week in review
16:33:20 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
16:33:30 <nirik> lots of folks were out this weekend at fudcon...
16:33:47 <nirik> but otherwise it seemed like another pretty typical week.
16:34:02 <nirik> Lots of interest in trying out gnome3 and helping their test day it seemed like.
16:34:48 <nirik> anything anyone would like to point out from the last week or note?
16:35:25 <nirik> ok, moving on then...
16:35:28 <nirik> #topic Tickets
16:35:28 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/report/1
16:35:45 <nirik> we once again have no open tickets...
16:35:51 <kerrg> Certain users got upset when we asked them open tickets however, iirc
16:35:53 <EvilBob> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/28
16:36:01 <nirik> however, we might all want to take a look at (that one EvilBob just posted)
16:36:21 <nirik> kerrg: yeah, we can't force anyone, but it is a way for us to get feedback and hopefully learn and improve.
16:36:39 <EvilBob> There is a detailed and time stamped log of this on fpaste also
16:37:14 <thomasj> http://fpaste.org/w5sx/
16:37:56 <nirik> so, what can we learn from this? was the user treated too abrubtly? or were they removed before they could cause too much trouble?
16:37:57 <EvilBob> the biggest issue I had with the ticket was the confrontational reaction of the ops
16:38:32 <kerrg> I don't think the user did anything to warrant getting kicked either.
16:38:36 <EvilBob> ANYONE is welcome to be in the channel as ong as they are not disruptive
16:39:03 <EvilBob> the confrontation was more disruptive than the user really
16:39:29 * FranciscoD_ is here, sorry, bad network tonight
16:39:36 <kerrg> EvilBob: Was the user even disruptive? He just made a sarcastic remark and asked to be left alone
16:39:41 <EvilBob> If only users needing help with #fedora issues are welcome then we all should leave
16:40:04 <thomasj> The user at least just wanted to be in the channel. So, yeah, the reaction was a bit fast and a bit hard.
16:40:05 <nirik> right, that gets to the "Minimal" section of the catalyst document. Try and be minimal. Sometimes feeding people or going on just makes others behave poorly.
16:40:12 <EvilBob> We are not there because we need help if only those needing help are allowed
16:40:18 * thomasj searches for the wet noodle to slap the ops
16:40:28 <nirik> I like the first suggestion listed there...
16:40:37 <nirik> note to people what rule they are breaking before removing them...
16:40:41 <nirik> would save some confusion.
16:41:39 <FranciscoD> "don't kick unless necessary"?
16:41:51 * FranciscoD means : keep it the *last* resort
16:42:05 <EvilBob> Another thing that chaps me is the disrespect of the other distro in this example
16:42:08 <FranciscoD> devoice them temporarily instead? (if it can be done)?
16:42:13 <kerrg> I think the standard in most distro support chatrooms is that even pretty abrasive users are let stay if they aren't disrupting things
16:42:26 <FranciscoD> EvilBob: I just ignore folks when they talk about non fedora stuff
16:42:36 <nirik> FranciscoD: sure, it could be... but it's hard to have any kind of guide that covers all cases.
16:43:01 <FranciscoD> nirik: it's upto the ops themselves, but I think devoicing is better than kicking
16:43:07 <kerrg> EvilBob: Was 'Bongo' a reference to Ubuntu?
16:43:18 <EvilBob> "advocating other $OSes like Bongo isn't allowed" in this case it was Ubuntu, not Bongo
16:43:33 <FranciscoD> EvilBob: kerrg: doesn't really matter what it was a reference to, does it?
16:43:48 <EvilBob> grow up and respect the other distros as we would like them to respect us
16:43:54 <kerrg> FranciscoD:
16:44:08 <EvilBob> FranciscoD: Only matters in the case of being an example
16:44:14 <FranciscoD> aye
16:44:15 <kerrg> FranciscoD: Sorry, I'm just with EvilBob though. We shouldn't be dissing on other distros like ubuntu, especially with references like Bongo
16:44:43 <FranciscoD> kerrg: like I said, if it's fedora related, I jump in, else I stay on the diving board and watch
16:44:46 <FranciscoD> :)_
16:45:15 <nirik> so, 1) try and be more minimal/not fuel people to the point where they need to be removed, 2) make sure and respect other distros/oses names, 3) When removing someone, try and note why/what rule they are being removed for.
16:45:20 <EvilBob> That's all I really had for the ticket
16:45:53 <kerrg> Ok I think nirik summed that one up well then
16:46:17 <EvilBob> Agreed
16:46:20 <nirik> I don't think it's practical to have more clear rules... there's no way to cover all cases.
16:46:23 <FranciscoD> EvilBob: nirik: no devoicing >>> kicking?
16:46:35 <thomasj> A kick isn't bad if needed
16:46:44 <FranciscoD> that way they can stay in the channel, can be explained why they've been devoiced
16:46:54 <FranciscoD> thomasj: i still think the kick should be the *last* option
16:46:55 <nirik> well, not sure we can time a devoice with the bot would be my only objection.
16:47:00 <EvilBob> FranciscoD: in this case it was only a kick, not a kick+ban
16:47:04 <thomasj> FranciscoD, the ban is the last resort
16:47:05 <nirik> but I could look into that.
16:47:10 <EvilBob> FranciscoD: the user could have rejoined
16:47:41 <EvilBob> nirik: A +b with out the kick is a devoice essentially
16:47:45 <kerrg> Generally if people get kicked they will NOT rejoin
16:48:01 <thomasj> EvilBob is right
16:48:03 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah, would have to adjust the bot to do that though I think...
16:48:08 <nirik> with times.
16:48:22 <thomasj> kerrg, hah, people often enoughrejoin :)
16:48:30 <thomasj> enough rejoin*
16:48:40 <EvilBob> nirik: I do it from time to time just using the normal ban command I use
16:49:08 <EvilBob> kerrg: the default in many clients is "rejoin on kick"
16:49:19 <EvilBob> kerrg: Or has been in the past
16:49:21 <nirik> ok, I will see about setting up some aliases for that. I think quieting would in fact be better a lot of the time.
16:49:44 <thomasj> And the real bad ones (troll) will try to rejoin until the client breaks :)
16:49:48 <FranciscoD> +1, for majority of the cases
16:50:11 <EvilBob> OK if there is nothing else on this I need to get back on the road
16:50:29 <thomasj> Drive careful
16:50:35 <FranciscoD> +1 to that too :)
16:50:43 <nirik> EvilBob: thats it I think... drive safe.
16:50:51 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
16:50:57 <nirik> ok, anything for open floor?
16:51:04 <EvilBob> I'll probably still be online but watching the road
16:51:12 <thomasj> heh
16:51:41 * EvilBob needs to build a accessible laptop mount
16:51:44 <EvilBob> ;)
16:52:25 * fenrus02 comes in quietly
16:53:19 * nirik will close out the meeting in a few if nothing else comes up.
16:54:13 <thomasj> complaint department is closed, so should be the meeting now ;p
16:54:38 * kerrg goes back to his research
16:54:48 <nirik> I'd like to say keep up the good work too folks... ;) Helping people is very rewarding.
16:55:02 <nirik> thanks for coming everyone!
16:55:05 <nirik> #endmeeting