18:00:01 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2011-03-03)
18:00:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Mar  3 18:00:01 2011 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:01 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
18:00:01 <nirik> #topic init process
18:00:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
18:00:07 <nirik> morning everyone.
18:00:21 <Southern_Gentlem> afternoon
18:00:23 <Khaytsus> como esta
18:00:28 <Sonar_Gal> hello nirik
18:00:43 <joaopinto> hi
18:00:58 * EvilBob 
18:01:09 * N3LRX 
18:01:12 * Southern_Gentlem 
18:01:22 * Sonar_Gal 
18:01:52 <EvilBob> To start I would like to apologize for nirik falling down on the job
18:01:59 <EvilBob> ;)
18:02:11 <nirik> ha. :) Thanks EvilBob.
18:02:18 <nirik> shall we go ahead and get started?
18:02:20 <EvilBob> We put a lot of weight on his shoulders
18:02:29 <nirik> #topic Week in review
18:02:29 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
18:02:41 <nirik> been a busy week for me. ;)
18:02:49 <nirik> pretty typical for the channel.
18:03:08 * Southern_Gentlem will not be around much next week
18:03:20 <EvilBob> Southern_Gentlem: Good to know
18:03:33 <EvilBob> I'll try to step it up a little
18:04:26 <Southern_Gentlem> yearly Sans Class
18:04:35 <nirik> anyone have anything they would like to shout out from this last week?
18:04:52 <EvilBob> one kick from social IIRC
18:05:09 <Southern_Gentlem> we have 3 people with network problems in unreg
18:05:37 <EvilBob> belligerent user looking for "help" not support, refused to respect the channel purpose
18:05:48 <EvilBob> asked them to file a ticket and they refused
18:05:58 <EvilBob> No ticket, no problem
18:06:18 <EvilBob> I cleared the ban list in -unregistered
18:06:37 <nirik> yeah.
18:06:47 <nirik> speaking of tickets:
18:06:49 <nirik> #topic Tickets
18:06:49 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/report/1
18:06:52 <EvilBob> it has some real old bans in it and was interfering with the "flushing process"
18:07:01 <EvilBob> s/has/had
18:07:38 <nirik> yeah, people were banned in there due to bouncing in and out a lot.
18:08:09 <Southern_Gentlem> i think they were rebanned this morning
18:08:31 <nirik> I'm not sure I ever recall anyone fixing their client and asking for the ban to be removed. ;(
18:08:31 <nirik> ticket #30 - Lots of kudos to dcr266!
18:08:49 <nirik> and we have:
18:08:51 <EvilBob> WTG dcr226
18:08:54 <nirik> ticket #31 Great Experience in #fedora
18:09:04 <Southern_Gentlem> we need to frame that one
18:09:07 <nirik> so, positive feedback. :) Very nice and good work dcr226
18:09:18 <dcr226> EvilBob, nirik ta :-)
18:09:18 <EvilBob> Yeah a general ticket for the channel, that is a first, nice to see
18:15:25 <KolonelPanic> Seems there is a net split?
18:15:42 <dcr226> in fairness, EvilBob contributed to #30 also :-)
18:15:43 <GeneralAccident> looks like my client died there :-/
18:16:00 <Southern_Gentlem> there was getting ready to be a grad student split
18:16:09 <nirik> yeah, good to see. ;)
18:16:09 <nirik> would anyone like to step up to close tickets with our thanks?
18:16:09 <nirik> I can do it. ;)
18:16:09 <nirik> #topic fedbot tweaking
18:16:09 * nirik sighs at freenode
18:16:09 <N3LRX> yeah, more lag
18:16:11 <GeneralAccident> looks like my client is behaving badly ;-(
18:16:13 <nirik> yeah, freenode is having problems. ;(
18:16:14 <EvilBob> Southern_Gentlem: +1
18:16:15 <EvilBob> RE: Tickets, would like to find a way to automate the bot to send out the trac pointer based on lines posted to the channel
18:16:15 <EvilBob> I would like
18:16:15 <EvilBob> we have agreed in the past that a time based post is Bleh
18:16:15 <EvilBob> a pointer that is activity based would be less annoying IMO
18:16:15 <EvilBob> ideas/opinions?
18:16:16 <EvilBob> Net split?
18:16:36 <nirik> yeah, net.death
18:17:05 <EvilBob> Not sure who saw my post about Tickets
18:17:09 <nirik> if someone can make such a plugin I'd be fine with giving it a try
18:17:21 <EvilBob> OK cool someone did
18:17:37 <GeneralAccident> I can look at that
18:17:59 <nirik> say after 100 actual lines in channel it spews out the feedback url... or 200 or 500 or whatever.
18:18:17 <EvilBob> nirik: yeah I was thinking 500 or so
18:18:17 <Southern_Gentlem> 1000
18:18:27 <nirik> we can always adjust if it gets anoying.
18:18:34 <Southern_Gentlem> without join/part
18:18:38 <EvilBob> Southern_Gentlem: Yeah that was another number I tossed out
18:18:49 <EvilBob> Southern_Gentlem: correct, just text lines
18:18:53 <dcr226> well, make a plugin where the number can be changed
18:19:16 <nirik> yeah, config option FTW.
18:19:55 <nirik> so, also on the bot topic... a user mailed me and suggested:
18:19:59 <nirik> ""A suggestion:  It would be great if quiet15m and kban15m told users
18:19:59 <nirik> how many seconds they're quieted or banned for.  Especially with
18:19:59 <nirik> kban15m:  otherwise, new #fedora visitors will assume they're banned
18:19:59 <nirik> until a manual unban, as is common on IRC."
18:20:20 <nirik> I'm not sure telling people the time is a good idea...
18:20:33 <nirik> but I do think we should make efforts to tell people why we did anything we did on them.
18:20:41 * thomasj laaaate here
18:20:48 <EvilBob> We have suggested communication is important in the past but I know I sometimes forget
18:21:08 <dcr226> yeah, I'm +1 for getting the bot to /msg them with details of what happened, and where to get more info
18:21:32 <EvilBob> I have some buttons and right click commands for doing things like this I am going to try to pull together and post
18:21:48 <EvilBob> I am strongly against sending a /msg or PM
18:22:13 <nirik> the problem with a pm would be it would be from the bot... and they would just reply there and get no answer.
18:22:18 <EvilBob> we tell users not to send a PM with out asking, there is no reason we should be doing the same when other options exist
18:22:28 <Sonar_Gal> +1
18:23:02 <nirik> ideally we would use quiet more, and explain in channel about it better... but thats back to the fallable human element.
18:23:10 <Khaytsus> I think either way is good, we need to let the user know the reason we banned them, particularly when the bot is messaged or it's done from -ops or such.
18:23:30 <EvilBob> We need to look at those other options, sending a PM only would result in the user talking to the bot and will not prevent the bleeding hearts from crying.
18:23:39 <Khaytsus> Perhaps someone can explain the difference in quiet and ban to me, I thought they were the same for dancer...
18:24:05 <nirik> Khaytsus: similar. with quiet they can't send to channel, but could leave and rejoin.
18:24:06 <EvilBob> Khaytsus: a ban keeps them from parting and joining, a quiet does not
18:24:19 <nirik> with ban they can't send to channel, but if they leave they can't come back in
18:24:26 <Khaytsus> Aha, I see.
18:24:45 <nirik> does quiet/ban tell you it can't send to channel ?
18:24:56 <Khaytsus> Makes sense, I must have misread something on a help document saying they were the same :)
18:24:56 <EvilBob> It has in the past
18:25:15 <EvilBob> nirik: it should perhaps be tested
18:25:37 <nirik> yeah, I am thinking quiet might look better to the end user.
18:25:50 <nirik> how about we investigate options over the next week and revisit this next week?
18:25:51 * thomasj_ kicks his ISP
18:25:59 <nirik> I don't think there is any urgency here to change anything...
18:26:11 <EvilBob> kicking has a message/memo option that I think is  abetter option for a kick ban
18:26:47 <nirik> we might see how well that shows up to the client too...
18:26:52 <EvilBob> it is posted to the channel with the kick, the user can see it as can the channel so it is clear to everyone what has happened and why
18:27:24 <Sonar_Gal> yeah EvilBob has been doing that for a while
18:27:37 <EvilBob> example * fedbot has kicked KolonelPanic from #fedora-social (This is a test of the emergency ass kicking system, this is only a test. Signed, EvilBob)
18:27:58 <EvilBob> that is what is shown to the channel and to the user in xchat
18:28:24 <EvilBob> I would doubt that it is different based on default client configurations
18:28:27 <nirik> yeah, all the aliases have ability to add a note I think too.
18:28:40 <nirik> we might try it in irssi... not sure what other clients are popular.
18:29:12 <EvilBob> the above example was issued using one of the kick commands that I have set up
18:29:19 <Sonar_Gal> Guy is in a meeting right now and he is using irssi
18:29:35 <GeneralAccident> anyone else just split?
18:29:52 <nirik> GeneralAccident: freenode is on a rollercoaster. ;)
18:30:04 <EvilBob> nirik: you can see the above kick at 9:37 your local time in -social
18:30:30 <nirik> yeah, I think thats all good for kick/ban... I guess that won't work for quiet or just ban tho.
18:31:06 <EvilBob> nirik: the client side shows "* You have been kicked from #fedora-social by fedbot (This is a test of the emergency ass kicking system, this is only a test. Signed, EvilBob)"
18:31:28 <GeneralAccident> ban and quiet don't have the reason option ;-(
18:31:36 <nirik> right.
18:31:51 <EvilBob> GeneralAccident: a +q you can send the message to the user IN the channel
18:32:00 <GeneralAccident> indeed you can
18:32:06 <EvilBob> by message I mean explanation
18:32:08 <GeneralAccident> and a ban
18:32:17 * EvilBob sighs
18:32:33 <EvilBob> Just to be clear on my stand on this
18:32:45 <GeneralAccident> you don't want to PM anyone, got it :-)
18:32:51 <EvilBob> I will NOT be using any commands that send a user a PM
18:33:00 <nirik> so, the question is: do we want to setup something that automatically sends something to channel when someone is quieted or banned (but not kicked)? or leave it up to who did the action?
18:33:39 <Khaytsus> Of course it's the BOT that does the PM...
18:33:42 <nirik> on one side a canned message looks more professional and would avoid someone forgetting to say anything.
18:34:08 <GeneralAccident> nirik, break it down. for a canned message I am personally +1
18:34:09 <nirik> on the other side it's another bit of noise in channel and might cause other people to start discussing it instead of staying on topic.
18:34:14 <EvilBob> I don't see a point of banning someone if you are not going to kick them also
18:34:36 <GeneralAccident> and personally, I'm +1 for the /msg, but I'm also happy for it to be in the channel. Either way, I'll volunteer to do the bot work
18:34:47 <nirik> EvilBob: so they could stay in channel and learn from folks? ie, a better solution could be discussed that they could see, but not disrupt, etc.
18:35:16 <EvilBob> nirik: then IMO a +q should be used if the ops decides they should be able to do that
18:35:43 <EvilBob> Does a +q follow a part/join?
18:35:44 <nirik> sure, but if you just do +q, the only indication that it happened is when the user types and gets a 'cannot send to channel' message.
18:35:50 <nirik> yes, it does.
18:36:19 <EvilBob> "*fedbot sets mode +q on user"
18:36:37 <EvilBob> that is an indication
18:36:37 <nirik> so they could be quieted for a longer time period, and keep coming back to channel to watch, but couldn't send anything to the channel.
18:36:55 <nirik> sure, but they might not know why, or who did it, or how to lift it, etc.
18:37:37 <EvilBob> nirik: sending a short but professional message to the channel as an explanation would do that
18:37:51 <nirik> yep.
18:38:14 <GeneralAccident> cool. can we have the message? or is that outside of the scope of the meeting?
18:38:29 <Khaytsus> I see no need to spam the channel if the k/b/q reason can be included from the bot, if provided IRC will show it to the victim and the channel.
18:38:36 <EvilBob> I think it will be something we work out outside the meeting
18:38:48 <Khaytsus> Yep, not to be decided on exact specifics here.
18:39:16 <nirik> "User foo has been quieted in channel. Please read our Channel_FAQ and reconsider your approach. File a ticket at http:... if you feel this action was incorrect, or simply wait for the quiet to end"
18:39:29 <nirik> Khaytsus: the reason can only be included on kicking.
18:39:33 <EvilBob> Khaytsus: In your statement above we need to clarify, a ban or a quiet does not have a memo, it would be a bot side thing
18:39:37 <nirik> yeah, lets work on this out of band.
18:39:55 <nirik> is everyone ok with a canned message for quiet/ban without kicks in channel?
18:40:12 <GeneralAccident> +1, unless it becomes a PITA, in which case, we can re-visit
18:40:15 <thomasj> +1
18:40:18 <Khaytsus> Sounds fine to me
18:40:19 <Sonar_Gal> +1
18:40:37 * nirik is good with it. Hopefully will cut off confusion. ;)
18:40:51 <nirik> ok, anything further on bot tweaks?
18:40:52 <EvilBob> I'll work with GeneralAccident to work on and test the commands and alias, whatever it is called
18:41:12 <nirik> excellent. thanks.
18:41:17 <Khaytsus> I gotta run, meeting at 2 and business to attend to before then.
18:41:26 <nirik> #action EvilBob and GeneralAccident to work up a message for quiet/ban without kicks.
18:41:28 <EvilBob> Khaytsus: Thanks for being here
18:41:33 <nirik> Khaytsus: enjoy.
18:41:44 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
18:41:49 <nirik> anyone have anything for open floor?
18:42:04 <nirik> alpha is coming up next week, so we might see a influx of alpha using people.
18:42:30 <GeneralAccident> yeah, I'm just testing an potential issue with the hybrid iso - keep you all posted
18:43:02 <nirik> cool.
18:43:11 <nirik> How's this meeting time for everyone?
18:43:18 <EvilBob> Works for me
18:46:10 <KolonelPanic> lagged again?
18:49:15 <thomasj> As good as the other time.
18:49:49 <dcr226> what did I miss?
18:50:06 <GeneralAccident> I'm good with it - will probably be a few minutes late for roll call each week - no biggie
18:50:24 <dcr226> wow
18:50:28 <EvilBob> Lagged again!
18:50:29 <EvilBob> @ping
18:50:36 <Evil_Sonar_Chick> major lags today
18:50:37 * dcr226 feels like Marty McFly
18:50:39 <nirik> it's actually nicer for me. ;)
18:50:39 <nirik> ok, if nothing else, will go ahead and call it a meeting. ;)
18:50:39 <nirik> Thanks for coming everyone!
18:50:39 <nirik> #endmeeting