17:00:48 <EvilBob> #startmeeting
17:00:48 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jun  9 17:00:48 2011 UTC.  The chair is EvilBob. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:48 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:48 <EvilBob> #meetingname irc-support-sig
17:00:48 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
17:00:48 <EvilBob> #meetingtopic IRC Support SIG Meeting
17:01:07 * nirik is here.
17:01:15 * thomasj is here
17:02:01 <EvilBob> I'll wait for a few more
17:02:06 <rockworldmi> here
17:02:39 <EvilBob> We don't have anything out of the ordinary this week that we know of so it should be short and sweet.
17:02:47 * Khaytsus 
17:02:47 * Southern_Gentlem 
17:02:55 <EvilBob> As always Feel free to bring up additional topics in the "Open Floor" section of the meeting.
17:04:11 <EvilBob> #topic Week in Review
17:04:11 <EvilBob> #link http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
17:04:29 <EvilBob> Looks like 2 kicks this week?
17:04:41 <nirik> another busy week...
17:04:46 <nirik> lots of folks jumping on f15.
17:05:13 <EvilBob> Yeah and some taking to GNOME that were convinced otherwise going in
17:05:38 <nirik> :)
17:05:39 <EvilBob> Anything else of note for the week?
17:06:13 <EvilBob> I'll take that as a no, moving on
17:06:16 <EvilBob> #topic Feedback Tickets
17:06:16 <EvilBob> #link https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/report/1
17:06:33 <EvilBob> Three tickets open this week.
17:06:33 <EvilBob> #link https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/56
17:06:33 <EvilBob> #link https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/57
17:06:33 <EvilBob> #link https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/58
17:07:26 <EvilBob> thomasj: you took on the ticket #56
17:07:35 <thomasj> Yes.
17:07:43 <Southern_Gentlem> !
17:07:47 <EvilBob> thomasj: Can you give us a summary and such
17:07:56 <thomasj> mizmo, something to add on the 56 one?
17:08:00 <nirik> I'd be ok with trying to voice ops for a week and see if it helps out or causes problems.
17:08:24 <nirik> and yeah, rework on the faq would be welcome.
17:08:33 <thomasj> EvilBob, yes, i wanted to write something up for #fedora, but i had a busy week. Anyways..
17:08:56 <thomasj> The ticket showed some old problems that we need to go away..
17:09:13 <mizmo> thomasj, yeh im a bit dismayed that someone who's an already known troublemaker isnt dealt with
17:09:19 <thomasj> Not easy to achieve, but managable..
17:09:24 <Southern_Gentlem> from the Freenode Channel Guidelines
17:09:27 <Southern_Gentlem> http://freenode.net/channel_guidelines.shtml
17:09:27 <EvilBob> The short line item is one that has always been... well the norm.
17:09:34 <nirik> mizmo: they are good at walking the line... as several are. ;(
17:09:41 <Southern_Gentlem> Don't keep channel operator privileges. Displaying these privileges on your nick with a "+o" attracts participants who are interested in gaining them and using them actively; it also attracts the attention of participants who react negatively to authority. Have your nick added to the channel access list and op yourself only when needed.
17:09:42 <mizmo> dude had to write short lines because his display was messed up
17:09:44 <EvilBob> When
17:09:45 <EvilBob> someone
17:09:50 <EvilBob> does this
17:09:50 <thomasj> I'm not speaking of exact spoons and forks FYI
17:09:52 <EvilBob> It makes
17:09:53 <mizmo> there weren't that short EvilBob
17:09:56 <EvilBob> it hard
17:10:01 <EvilBob> to help others
17:10:09 <EvilBob> It's but an example
17:10:28 <mizmo> he appeared to be wrapping lines at 60-80 characters which is fairly reasonable
17:10:30 <thomasj> Yes, those lines can be annoying, but that's not the real problem.
17:10:32 <nirik> sure, thats something to avoid, but in this case they had a reason, and our faq doesn't really address it well either.
17:10:56 <Khaytsus> I don't think the line length is the issue here, the person trolling and arguing was...
17:10:59 <mharris> Southern_Gentlem: I've found that in small or large channels, whether opped or voiced - it tends to draw people's attention, some hostile but some just looking for help and going direct to you because you seem important.
17:11:25 <mizmo> Khaytsus+1
17:11:50 <thomasj> What the channel lacks is some clear "get rid of people who are just there to flame, bash, other things" no matter on what side they are.
17:12:01 <EvilBob> Well that is not what the ticket was files for
17:12:02 <thomasj> And i say again, i'm not speaking of spoons or forks.
17:12:03 <dcr226> I'm happy to be a guinnea pig...I can voice/op and see how much bad press it attracts
17:12:08 <rockworldmi> thomasj: +1
17:12:13 <mizmo> thomasj+1000
17:12:21 <EvilBob> op identification and line length faq item
17:12:21 <mharris> thomasj: +1 (on many channels)
17:12:28 <EvilBob> that is the ticket subject
17:12:52 <Southern_Gentlem> #action someone look at the FAQ Line Length issue
17:12:54 <mizmo> EvilBob, i filed the ticket. those were my two suggestions. i have no ideas sadly on how to actually enforce the anti-flaming rule, but it is an item in the ticket that it was not enforced here
17:12:55 <thomasj> This can be done easily. You can't save them all. So get rid of the ones who are disruptive.
17:13:13 <nirik> sure, but it's a judgement call... and in this case it was more 'tone' than any specific line? or did I miss the flame line?
17:13:15 <EvilBob> If the item is really "Pitchfork is an asshole" then lets get a new ticket for that.
17:13:23 <Khaytsus> On the topic of op id we can try audo voicing but not auto opping.
17:13:25 <mizmo> it's a fedora support channel, not a 12-step program for people lacking social graces
17:13:32 <thomasj> EvilBob, no, that'
17:13:35 <thomasj> damn
17:13:35 <Khaytsus> Line length should not be defined anywhere....
17:13:37 <Southern_Gentlem> mizmo,  anytime you see something like that please @ops
17:13:46 <mizmo> Southern_Gentlem, i didn't know who the ops in the channel were
17:14:01 <thomasj> EvilBob, no, that's not the case itself, as i said. It's not personally about pitchfork.
17:14:03 <dcr226> mizmo, the bot alias @ops pings the -ops channel
17:14:04 <Southern_Gentlem> mizmo,  that calls any of us that is around
17:14:06 <nirik> so, which line(s) should have been actionable here?
17:14:15 <mizmo> EvilBob, I could not file any such ticket since i never interacted with him before and have no idea of the history
17:14:27 <mizmo> dcr226, how would i have known that?
17:14:30 <thomasj> nirik, it's not about special lines in this case, but disruptive people in general.
17:14:34 <Khaytsus> mizmo: It's a community channel, the ops aren't the only ones who inteact.  Particularly late at night (-5 local time zone) often there are no ops around.  Is the concern the person who was being a jerk was an op?
17:14:34 <dcr226> mizmo, the wiki page
17:14:40 <thomasj> People tend to walk the line lately.
17:14:48 <thomasj> Because they know how it works ;)
17:14:49 <Southern_Gentlem> mizmo,  reading the Channel FAQ in the channel /topic
17:15:03 <nirik> we could add that to the /topic perhaps?
17:15:23 <mizmo> Southern_Gentlem, somehow, reading the channel FAQ is not something that i think normally occurs to someone in a bad situationj
17:15:28 <EvilBob> There is nothing that says we can not file tickets against users
17:15:30 <dcr226> mizmo, its on the same page you submitted your ticket to
17:15:38 <dcr226> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig
17:15:40 <mharris> Long channel topics that attempt to fit the entire content of the web indexable by Google into $topic get silently ignored by newbie and expert alike. :)
17:15:41 <mizmo> dcr226, i filed the ticket because a bot spit out the URL
17:15:45 <mizmo> right in the channel
17:15:46 <Khaytsus> I'm not sure I see how a user acting that way vs an op acting that way is any bettter or worse..
17:15:50 <nirik> mharris: sure, thats why we moved it to a wiki page. ;)
17:15:56 <dcr226> mizmo, yeah, I'm just saying where you find that bot instruction
17:15:56 <thomasj> Khaytsus, +1
17:16:04 <EvilBob> If a user is a problem that KNows where the line is and pushes it all the time then they should be dealt with as it is disrultive
17:16:09 <EvilBob> disruptive
17:16:16 <thomasj> EvilBob, +1
17:16:19 <nirik> we could add it to the regular bot message?
17:16:22 <mizmo> dcr226, i understand. the problem is there is no bot instruction where i learned about the ticket system, so it didn't really help
17:16:26 <mharris> EvilBob: indeed, swiftly and without hesitation
17:16:31 <mizmo> nirik+1
17:16:37 <thomasj> But we should finally start and do it, rather than just talking about it and hold there hands.
17:16:38 <nirik> ... and @ops to call operator attention to an ongoing issue.
17:17:06 <dcr226> mizmo, the bot spits out the support ticket message every 100 lines, on the link it spits out, is the @ops alias instruction. I guess it could be placed elsewhere also
17:17:15 <nirik> dcr226: it is?
17:17:19 * nirik looks
17:17:34 <dcr226> nirik, yeah on https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig
17:17:37 <EvilBob> <fedbot> Please visit our trac instance at https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ and file a feedback ticket telling us about your experience in #fedora. Thanks in advance for your feedback.
17:17:49 <mizmo> dcr226, oh i see. that may be my fault. whenever i see the front page of a trac instance i pretty much ignore it because most of the trac instances i work with have an empty front page / useless info
17:17:50 <nirik> right, I meant right there. :)
17:17:52 <dcr226> nirik, under the "Before You Post" section
17:18:25 <mizmo> if you want people to talk to ops first, then mention ops before mentioning filing a ticket
17:18:26 <dcr226> mizmo, heh,  yeah - we had it adjusted a while ago..but you're right, most are empty :-)
17:18:42 <nirik> how about we change it to: "For ongoing issues, say "@ops" for operator attention. Please visit our trac instance at https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ and file a feedback ticket telling us about your experience in #fedora. Thanks in advance for your feedback."
17:18:53 <mizmo> nirik - love it
17:18:54 <EvilBob> nirik: -1
17:18:56 <thomasj> What does that solve?
17:19:00 <thomasj> Nothing.
17:19:01 <mizmo> well
17:19:08 <mizmo> let me ask you folks a question
17:19:18 <mizmo> if im in #fedora, and i dont hang out in there much maybe it's my first time
17:19:18 * hiemanshu lurks
17:19:19 <nirik> it allows operators to see an issue, but in this case I'm not sure it would solve anything.
17:19:24 <mizmo> and what's his name comes in and starts yelling at me
17:19:28 <mizmo> what do you want me to do
17:19:29 <nirik> but in others it might.
17:19:30 <EvilBob> "Please visit our trac instance at https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ and file a feedback ticket telling us about your experience in #fedora. Thanks in advance for your feedback. For ongoing issues, say "@ops" for operator attention."
17:19:30 <mizmo> i filed a ticket
17:19:37 <mizmo> but you guys are telling me now i should have talked to @ops
17:19:52 <Southern_Gentlem> @ops  and then if no ops take action file a ticket
17:19:55 <mizmo> decide what you would have wanted me to do in that situation, and make that the first thing the bot 100-line message says to do
17:19:59 <dcr226> ?
17:20:04 <nirik> mizmo: we are getting off track I fear. ;)
17:20:08 <Khaytsus> mizmo: IMO what you did is fine, but if you wanted immediate resolution I'd suggest looking for ops.  How you do that...  no bot commands, no +o, etc.. just say "Is anyone an op here?" or such...
17:20:10 <mizmo> Southern_Gentlem, in that case, then nirik's proposed 100 line bot message is the way you want to go
17:20:27 <EvilBob> mizmo: Just wanted to make sure you knew the other option I think
17:20:42 <EvilBob> mizmo: and your input on making that more clear will help
17:20:45 <mizmo> Khaytsus, a Fedora user who isn't familiar with IRC who goes in here for support (because the website pushes them there) will not understand the concept of an 'op' sadly
17:20:47 <Khaytsus> I know I've been in channels I've never been in before and been hassled and I've asked if anyone is an op in the channel.  Usually it's the person hassling me and I leave...... but I digress
17:20:47 <nirik> if we want to get back to this case, the problem was that the rudeness wasn't that high IMHO. Perhaps I am jaded.
17:21:14 <mbouffard> op => boss. everyone understands boss
17:21:14 <FranciscoD> how about adding something on these lines to the fedora channel faq, if it isn't already there?
17:21:20 <mbouffard> :P
17:21:27 <FranciscoD> it's in the topic
17:21:35 <mizmo> nirik, it wasn't at first, maybe i shouldn't have made my initial comment to him, but then again, it reasonably should not have blown up into what it became
17:21:40 <FranciscoD> and it's shown to every one who joins the channel?
17:21:46 <nirik> mizmo: welcome to irc. ;)
17:22:08 <FranciscoD> mizmo: I'm sorry it happened. Generally, someone's around to smooth the situation.
17:22:10 <mizmo> nirik, yeh but theres a difference between random irc channel vs channel we advertise all over the web for new users
17:22:16 <FranciscoD> op or just a general by stander :)
17:22:26 <nirik> anyhow, perhaps we could/should add a 'don't be rude' to the faq? But it's not clear to me exactly what was rude here... it was abrupt, but they were being factual...
17:22:45 <EvilBob> Can we all just stop a second so we can get back on track?
17:22:52 <mizmo> would it be helpful for me to point out what was rude?
17:23:09 <dcr226> EvilBob, +1 we're off track imho
17:23:17 <nirik> mizmo: to me at least, feel free to pm me if you prefer?
17:23:24 <EvilBob> thomasj: do you have a suggested resolution at this point after the discussion?
17:23:38 <thomasj> It doesn't change anything as long as the general meaning is that we put another rule on the wiki page and another one instead of *doing* something.
17:23:43 <thomasj> EvilBob, yes
17:24:07 <thomasj> EvilBob, short version: Get rid of known disruptive people in #fedora
17:24:08 <Khaytsus> I say table this and discuss in another place or time :)
17:24:15 <Khaytsus> Don't have to resolve it here and now.
17:24:31 <thomasj> EvilBob, means: give them a good old timeout until we lfush the ban list.
17:24:32 * EvilBob shighs
17:24:42 <FranciscoD> thomasj: you'll have to formalize the definition of "disruptive" :)
17:24:43 <thomasj> EvilBob, that give them time to think about their behavior.
17:24:58 <thomasj> FranciscoD,  no problem
17:25:01 * dcr226 thinks we're off track...lets discuss the ticket and the rest in open floor?
17:25:11 <thomasj> dcr226, that's part of the ticket
17:25:18 <EvilBob> thomasj: OK that is NOT the ticket title so lets get a ticket going for that idea so we can discuss it next week
17:25:40 <EvilBob> Now about the line length item
17:25:44 <thomasj> EvilBob, i will write something up and open a ticket with it. Fine.
17:25:55 <EvilBob> we all know what is and is not acceptable or disruptive
17:26:03 <thomasj> +1
17:26:25 <EvilBob> How can we make that more clear so it comes off in a friendlier way
17:26:36 <thomasj> But we hear all the time "i can't see the disruptive".
17:26:38 <EvilBob> a @lines item?
17:26:42 * dcr226 notes the line length issue was the opinion of a user in this case, not an op...not sure if it warrants a policy
17:27:04 <thomasj> yep, it was a user
17:27:06 <EvilBob> dcr226: True we do not have control over the users
17:27:08 <mizmo> how about you follow the freenode.net guidelines
17:27:13 <EvilBob> but we can lead by example
17:27:18 <mizmo> and control FAQ violations privately
17:27:20 <mizmo> rather than in the channel
17:27:35 <dcr226> its an FAQ item? huh
17:27:47 <mizmo> http://freenode.net/catalysts.shtml
17:27:59 <mizmo> dcr226, well the line length should have been a FAQ item
17:28:06 <EvilBob> The Freenode "stuff' also says that PMs are discouraged
17:28:26 <dcr226> mizmo, ah right. got you now
17:28:43 <mizmo> EvilBob, funny that freenode tells you to not PM and at the same time resolve conflicts in PM
17:28:45 * nirik has pointed to that many a time.
17:28:54 <nirik> I think thats a great link we should all try and live up to.
17:29:04 <dcr226> soooo....we should decide if it should become an faq, then in turn - follow the freenode guidelines when it becomes one really
17:29:05 <zcat> ok. be excellent to one another, etc.
17:29:22 <nirik> mizmo: where does it say to resolve in pm?
17:29:33 <mizmo> nirik ah it was in the page before, one sec
17:29:42 <EvilBob> OK so lets document the "lines item" out of band, check with mizmo to get her opinion.
17:29:56 <mizmo> http://freenode.net/pounddefocus.shtml
17:30:01 <dcr226> EvilBob, +1, not a user, not a faq (yet, could end up being one)
17:30:07 * Khaytsus chases butterflies for a few minutes
17:30:08 <dcr226> erm, not an op**
17:30:11 <mizmo> Handle disputes quietly.
17:30:12 <mizmo> If you have a dispute with someone on the channel we ask you to handle it privately, disputes shouldn't be handled or discussed on the channel. If you are unable to resolve it privately, ask a chanop or staffer to mediate for you. Any mediation will be done off-channel
17:30:35 <Khaytsus> mizmo: If I kb someone I'll tell them to join -ops to discuss.  Is that what you mean? :)
17:30:46 <mizmo> Catalyze.
17:30:46 <mizmo> Polish your catalyst skills. The catalyst role is key to keeping channel interactions friendly and efficient. If you see people not adhering to the rules, take them to query and catalyze. Anyone can catalyze - you do not need power, privilege or social standing to do it.
17:30:48 <nirik> mizmo: interesting. Those are their rules for #defocus... haven't seen them before, I never go there. ;)
17:30:49 <dcr226> no one asked for a staffer/chanop in this case fwics
17:30:53 <Khaytsus> If it comes to it, not because they perturbed me or some other user......
17:31:09 <EvilBob> Lets also get a note added to the fedbot feedback message about the @ops command and be prepared for it to be abused
17:31:11 <mizmo> nirik, i actually found that page looking to see why the /away command doesn't work right on freenode (still trying to figure that out)
17:31:15 <nirik> EvilBob: +1 (faq could use more work too in general)
17:31:19 <mizmo> nirik, wasnt obvious to me it was for a specific channel
17:31:21 <dcr226> ?#
17:31:32 <nirik> "Channel Guidelines for #defocus"
17:31:50 <mizmo> nirik, yeh i was skimming for my search term
17:31:52 <EvilBob> For now I think we need to table this and come back next week
17:31:56 * nirik can add the ops thing.
17:32:32 <Southern_Gentlem> +1 table for one week
17:32:38 <EvilBob> mizmo: Is that OK with you? We normally like to resolve things the first time around by discussing them before hand
17:32:48 <mizmo> EvilBob, it's fine, the ticket brings up multiple issues
17:32:55 <mharris> +1 table for one Jovian week
17:33:03 <thomasj> ok, +1
17:33:04 <mizmo> :)
17:33:06 <EvilBob> With the complexity it's hard right now
17:33:06 * dcr226 suggests we invite mizmo to -ops temporarily to discuss it out of band
17:33:20 <EvilBob> I don't have time today to discuss it
17:33:24 <Khaytsus> dcr226: +1
17:33:34 <thomasj> There was already enough discussion.
17:33:43 <dcr226> thomasj, but no resolve :-)
17:33:46 <mock> and not enough bacon
17:33:49 <EvilBob> Could we see how things work one day before the meeting next week?
17:33:51 <nirik> how about discusson on list?
17:33:55 <thomasj> dcr226, not this time.
17:33:56 <EvilBob> nirik: _1
17:33:59 <EvilBob> +1
17:34:10 * mizmo doesnt want to join YAML
17:34:10 <dcr226> nirik +1, better than my idea
17:34:14 <EvilBob> Lets tke it to the list
17:34:23 <mizmo> cc me on it separately if you want my opinion (may well not need it)
17:34:26 <nirik> yeah, lists can be anoying... but also happy to discuss anywhere else.
17:34:40 <EvilBob> OK, Ticket #56 held over for a week to be discussed on the list
17:34:47 * Khaytsus hands EvilBob the gavel
17:34:59 * EvilBob hits himself in the head with it
17:35:05 * dcr226 helps
17:35:12 <EvilBob> Next ticket
17:35:24 <EvilBob> #link https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/57
17:35:46 <EvilBob> Ticket #57 kudos
17:36:01 <EvilBob> Please briefly describe the interaction that caused you to file this ticket: Help with several issues, including what ended up being an selinux problem that wouldn't allow me to login (via gdm or even console)
17:36:01 <EvilBob> Please note other IRC nicks that are involved in this interaction: VileGent?, fenrus02
17:36:18 <EvilBob> Any additional notes or logs: everyone is always very helpful - as long as you're willing to actually LISTEN TO THEM and willing to help yourself! can't ask for much more than that :)
17:36:49 <dcr226> Southern_Gentlem++ fenrus02++
17:36:50 <EvilBob> Good Job guys
17:37:03 <EvilBob> Thanks and close it?
17:37:19 <nirik> yep.
17:37:25 <dcr226> close hiiiim
17:37:31 <EvilBob> Next ticket
17:37:45 <EvilBob> #link https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/58
17:38:08 <EvilBob> Ticket #58 thanks!
17:38:30 <EvilBob> Please briefly describe the interaction that caused you to file this ticket: I had a problem when using preupgrade (f14 -> f15) which caused weird errors when upgrading packages. Two happy helpers pointed me to a webpage, describing the procedure when upgrading major fedora versions.
17:38:30 <EvilBob> Please note other IRC nicks that are involved in this interaction: VileGent? and fenrus02
17:38:30 <EvilBob> Please describe what action or positive change could be adopted based on this feedback: I think they should get a cookie ;) I don't really know what to say here ..
17:38:44 <EvilBob> Good Job Guys
17:38:45 <mbouffard> wizard
17:38:50 <dcr226> Southern_Gentlem++ fenrus02++
17:38:50 <EvilBob> Have a cookie
17:39:16 <EvilBob> Thanks and close it?
17:39:24 <rockworldmi> yup..
17:39:36 <EvilBob> OK End of tickets
17:39:39 <EvilBob> #topic Open Floor
17:39:39 <EvilBob> Does anyone have anything to add?
17:39:48 * dcr226 
17:40:01 <dcr226> #idea We could have MessageParser look for certain phrases in the channel "ops" for example, or curses. and send a ping into the -ops channel. If it gets noisy, we can always disable it
17:40:17 <thomasj> dcr226, good idea
17:40:40 <EvilBob> It's just going to get noisy IMO
17:40:54 <dcr226> one way to find out, won't take us long to disable if it did
17:41:01 <mbouffard> page the bacon channel
17:41:01 <thomasj> +1
17:41:15 <dcr226> mbouffard, the adults are talking
17:41:20 <dcr226> ;-)
17:41:25 <Khaytsus> .moarbacon mbouffard
17:41:25 <zodbot> mbouffard, here, have some more bacon
17:41:45 <nirik> well, not sure that will help... if there are active ops they would already see the channel.
17:42:02 <nirik> how often is it just when no op is around vs no one takes action for whatever reason?
17:42:05 <dcr226> I guess it loops back to "no-one present, didn't find the @ops"
17:42:28 <dcr226> so perhaps might be shelved for the list, but there you have it :-)
17:42:47 <FranciscoD> dcr226: these things just happen. Nothing really you can put in place IMO
17:43:03 <EvilBob> OK anything else for the open floor?
17:43:22 <FranciscoD> nothing except more bacon for all :)
17:43:43 <mbouffard> I'd give it a good wax
17:43:48 * nirik has nothing off hand.
17:44:17 <EvilBob> OK
17:44:21 <EvilBob> @endmeeting
17:44:28 <EvilBob> #endmeeting