17:16:41 #startmeeting 17:16:41 Meeting started Thu Aug 25 17:16:41 2011 UTC. The chair is EvilBob. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:16:41 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 17:16:41 #meetingname irc-support-sig 17:16:41 The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig' 17:16:41 #meetingtopic IRC Support SIG Meeting 17:16:53 #chair nirik dcr226 17:16:53 Current chairs: EvilBob dcr226 nirik 17:17:16 look at that, I learned something 17:17:19 We do have an agenda today. 17:17:19 Feel free to bring up additional topics in the "Open Floor" section of the meeting. 17:17:41 #topic Week in Review 17:18:26 "standard week"? whatever that is? 17:18:26 Stats are still down from the Glaser family move, I have not wanted to bother Scott with it I am sure they are busy with other things and have company this week. 17:18:47 Yeah SSDW from what I saw. 17:19:07 yeah, looked reasonably typical. 17:19:08 Anything more on the week? 17:19:10 f16 alpha came out. 17:19:27 coolness 17:19:40 Oh yeah Alpha for F16 is out... send them to #fedora-qa 17:19:54 * mock thinks when f16 goes out of alpha, we call it f16 bacon instead of bravo 17:19:55 I've noticed a drop in the users on #fedora. 12 months ago used to be always around the 400 mark, now we're down to 350 17:20:02 ? 17:20:05 get it and install it so we can help when the beta hits 17:20:12 can we prod -websites about this maybe? -marketing? dunno 17:20:13 Southern_Gentlem: ? 17:20:18 beta release are we clearing the ban list? 17:20:29 yeah, when it goes beta +1 17:20:31 Southern_Gentlem: that has been the SOP 17:20:42 er, beta, not bravo 17:20:46 right 17:20:49 f16A doesnt like dual boot 17:21:13 Some offenders end up back there the first month, not sure the point of clearing is 17:21:32 grub2 doesnt pick up the secondary OS 17:21:38 Anyhow, lets discuss this more in the open floor 17:22:10 #topic Feedback Tickets 17:22:10 #link https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/report/1 17:22:13 * dcr226 points at his point/question before you move on 17:22:24 nvm, openfloor for it 17:22:38 dcr226: i think that usrbase can be increased if upgrade from one version to another through software update is provided ..:P 17:22:50 nvm, openfloor for it 17:22:53 1 ticket open this week. 17:22:54 #link https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/64 17:23:13 I'm involved in this ticket, I'll let dcr226 handle it 17:23:35 mock, vent away my man 17:23:40 * mock hands some bacon to dcr226 and gets ready 17:23:56 I'd like to note we have: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Social_Channel_FAQ If that can be clarified or updated, great. 17:24:05 summarize what's in the ticket first 17:24:17 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Social_Channel_FAQ 17:24:25 my ticket was because of a kick/ban combo move by EvilBob for a "support" question posed in -social 17:24:49 i thought it was a bit over the top to take those measures in a social channel 17:24:52 right, so the over-arching issue here is (a) potential over-reacting (b) support on #fedora 17:25:15 dcr226: technically, not b 17:25:16 The FAQ states #fedora-social is a social channel, not a support one. Please don't ask support related questions here, instead use the appropriate support channel for your question. 17:25:25 just a 17:25:49 Had they been previously warned? 17:25:50 OK the reason I did the kick and ban was twofold 17:25:51 i wouldn't consider a general linux question a support matter 17:25:58 er a fedora support matter 17:26:10 jsmith, its fairly regularly mentioned in the channel that its not a support venue 17:26:15 well three fold actually 17:26:28 and kc8hfi had been warned several times 17:26:35 dcr226: I understand that... I still think a warning before a kick/ban would be appropriate 17:26:47 Hold on jsmith 17:27:02 just a few weeks ago on another topic you said no warnings 17:27:02 * jsmith holds 17:27:29 We need to be consistent on what needs a warning and what does not 17:27:39 EvilBob, fire away with the 3-fold 17:27:56 First item, the channel FAQ 17:27:59 The FAQ states #fedora-social is a social channel, not a support one. Please don't ask support related questions here, instead use the appropriate support channel for your question. 17:28:21 Now I can't remember.... 17:28:29 Oh 17:29:20 kc8hfi has a habit of asking open ended questions or making open ended statements that others seem to jump on to help him even when that is not his desire 17:29:37 third 17:30:00 we are not allowed to be openly social in #fedora, this is the reason for the FAQ item 17:30:50 If we are going to allow "support" questions in #fedora-social Then it should be closed and all users redirected to #fedora, we don't have the man power to have two support venues 17:30:54 I don't think there is any type of s-o-p for the -social channel is there? I think it applies to #fedora? 17:30:55 and also bots shouldn't be allowed in #fedora-social..:) 17:31:03 rockworldmi, yes they should 17:31:16 within reason, but its a separate issue, bring it up at open floor 17:31:24 K. 17:31:29 ta :-) 17:31:40 o/ 17:31:50 So lets close #fedora-social and bring #fedora back to the way it was 17:32:00 massive -1 17:32:03 wait... what? 17:32:09 o/ 17:32:17 I don't think anyone was suggesting that, EvilBob 17:32:22 jsmith: I am 17:32:37 i view the -social channel as a talk about whatever channel since off-topic-ers are sent there from #fedora. i treat it as i would a party or a water cooler irl. sometimes general questions about stuff including linux get asked. it definitely benefits the whole to have these posed in #fedora when it applied to our favorite distro. 17:32:43 i think kicking and banning over support questions is rather harsh. now, i don't feel like it's an open forum since i could be banned or kicked for a non-fedora support convo. 17:33:13 mock: that brings another item 17:33:33 mock, I think it went beyond chit-chat to be honest, it was obviously better place in #fedora, where there are loads more folks on hand to deal with support stuff tbh 17:33:35 maybe just a kick would be sufficient, but only to the person who asked in the first place - not the other members of the conversation 17:33:36 that was my reason for the ticket 17:33:36 general Linux/GNU questions in #fedora 17:34:00 mock the problem is there was a couple of people that were using -social as a collaborative space 17:34:01 oooh, I was honest twice in that statement 17:34:26 Southern_Gentlem: yeah, but that happens all the time over many different topics 17:34:32 kc8hfi: You were only kicked, the other party a non-fedora user was given a 15minute ban for keeping it going even after you tried to end the conversation from what I read 17:35:16 ok, lets pull back a bit here.... mock, whats the ideal outcome for you from the ticket? 17:35:19 My gut reaction is that a ban is a bit harsh... but if he's been warned multiple times, a kick seems like the next logical step 17:35:54 kc8hfi, also ^ 17:36:00 * nirik nods. 17:36:04 EvilBob: but https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Channel_FAQ#Poll_and_be_Banned suggests that one hsould not discuss general GNU or linux related question in #fedora 17:36:19 i can totally see the misuse of -social for support specific to fedora. as for general linux questions, we get those in both #fedora and -social, but i don't consider those the same. 17:36:41 jsmith: that is why the ban was only 15 minutes, to give the user a cool off time, the user responded with "Fuck you, this is among the many many reasons I don't run your fucking distro." 17:37:10 always channeling support people to #fedora when it directly applies. most follow that. this was a general how does umask work with smb question 17:37:17 general linux 17:37:18 rockworldmi: Can you stop, that is not the topic 17:37:20 mock, same question applies really, whats the ideal outcome for you? 17:37:35 a SOP? 17:37:48 EvilBob: k.. 17:38:09 dcr226: i think it depends how you decide to handle EvilBob's general linux question matter 17:38:18 mock: but you should not have used bad words.. 17:38:38 i didn't 17:38:40 rockworldmi: Mock did not 17:38:40 no one did 17:38:40 rockworldmi: that wasn't mock 17:38:57 rockworldmi: mock was a third part to situation 17:38:57 k.sorry my bad.. 17:39:03 mock, I'm guessing Bob isn't suggesting that general linux questions on #fedora (or changing #fedora's general purpose) I think we're on about -social here 17:39:05 party 17:39:05 oh..sorry, 17:39:27 * dcr226 is sorry if that sounds awkward, but we need to stay on track I think, and I think the line of discussion was suited to #fedora 17:39:32 i think that general linux questions come up in -social. that's where i'd ask them because they have no place in #fedora support per se 17:40:03 mock, but this scenario went on for quite a while I think, spanning two days. How should we handle those? 17:40:05 mock: Your ticket refers to "regulars" 17:40:07 and i think they should be treated as any other non-fedora support questions 17:40:11 mock: can you define this 17:40:33 2 days over the same situation...yeah, it was brought up 2 day, but not all day on both those days... 17:40:46 I think it _was_ a fedora question, didn't it turn out to have a bug filed against it? 17:40:47 kc8hfi: Correct 17:40:57 kc8hfi: thanks for pointing that out 17:41:00 kc8hfi, right, not all day...bad description 17:41:21 i can't find it at quick glance but i mean those who everyone really knows in the channel 17:41:37 if it was about people... 17:41:42 * mock checks again... 17:41:48 OK the way I see it is this, according to the Channel FAQ I handled the support situation 17:41:55 oh, in the main line 17:42:05 Correct? 17:42:23 dcr226: it did, but it didn't start out that way 17:42:31 Was my banning of "helper" a bit harsh? Perhaps 17:42:35 mock, right, so where do we draw the line? 17:42:42 EvilBob, I think thats the real question 17:42:55 someone that lurks in the channel is not a regular IMO 17:43:01 banning the helper seems to be a bit harse, banning the starter would be also... 17:43:12 someone that is regularly active however would be 17:43:26 well, tell me this: should he have started in #fedora with umask use? 17:43:35 mock: IMO yes 17:43:37 i think we all know how that might have gone 17:43:48 the standard "google it" and stuff 17:43:52 * nirik would have suggested #linux or #bash 17:44:01 mock: and also in my opinion if it is not Fedora specific they should not be sent to #fedora-social 17:44:34 EvilBob: i agree that not all other support should end up in -social. but i know who hangs out in -social. 17:44:36 mock: I think that the chasing off of general questions needs to stop in #fedora 17:44:43 and i would have asked his question there too had it been mine 17:44:58 i know the people there are good with linux and might know. 17:45:05 i know that it's not fedora specific 17:45:14 his choice seemed to make logical sense to me 17:45:28 I disagree 17:45:35 I think the thing here is, what outcome we want form the ticket. We could argue the points all night...but I want to know how we can try to make this better 17:45:42 as things went on, it required more questions, which might have sent him into other channels 17:45:45 the channel FAQ states it is not a suupport venue 17:45:58 none whatsoever? 17:46:06 no linux? 17:46:15 no internet? 17:46:20 no bacon? 17:46:22 :-) 17:46:23 or just no fedora? 17:46:24 It does not state that is a support venue for non-fedora specific questions 17:46:54 so where do i take those questions? 17:47:04 that's my point 17:47:08 I think there's a balance here... it's not a support venue, but short support related things are fine. If they go on, people should be told to take it to a support venue or be removed. 17:47:10 It states #fedora-social is a social channel, not a support one. Please don't ask support related questions here, instead use the approprate support channel for your question. 17:47:15 if not -social, tell me where they should go 17:47:22 cuz it's certainly not #fedora 17:47:24 mock: #fedora 17:47:27 IMO 17:47:33 mock: #fedora or #linux or #bash or whatever is approprate... 17:47:36 all support questions go to fedora? 17:47:41 no 17:47:47 mock: IMO based on the FAQ, yes 17:47:51 nirik, right....I think we should move towards adding that to the FAQ if everyone agrees 17:47:57 they can be redirected from there 17:48:01 mock if the person is using fedora and asks question then it should not cause problem.. 17:48:13 if it's fedora support releated, sure, #fedora. 17:48:25 if it's how to fix a 57 chevy, #fedora is unlikely to be able to help 17:48:27 #fedora for a umask issue wasn't gonna fly anyway. i know this from past experience. more places for me to think about now is #linux and #bash - i heard of them, but never really did click to check those out 17:48:39 mock: or as nirik said,,, 17:48:50 what kc8hfi just said is typical 17:49:02 If they are running Fedora, then help them in #fedora rather than sending them away to #some-other-channel for people to compain about the way Fedora does things 17:49:18 EvilBob: +1. 17:49:50 i don't remember getting warned to stop with the conversation as it unfolded. next time, if i get warned, i'll stop and go elsewhere, and i'll tell anyone who started to give assistance to stop and go to a different channel 17:49:52 or guide people to appropriate channel.. 17:49:56 that way, nobody gets kicked/banned 17:50:11 soooo.....can't we at least drive towards a vote/descision here then please? 17:50:18 * dcr226 doesn't care about his poor spelling 17:50:27 kc8hfi: the way I read the buffer you tried at least at one point to stop the conversation 17:50:30 dcr226: i think we have a difference of interp right now 17:51:16 EvilBob sees the faq as no support whatsoever in -social 17:51:37 and all support no matter what (linux, fedora, etc.) based go to #fedora 17:51:45 mock, and its not going anywhere. I want to understand where we can attempt to fix this, or find a compromise...otherwise, it will descend into "mock said this" "Bob said that" which will get us no where 17:51:47 but nirik doesn't see it that way 17:51:50 I propose two things, loosen up on what is supported for Fedora users in #fedora and we quit sending support questions to -social 17:51:51 i think 17:52:03 well, i don't see it that way 17:52:13 i should only speak for myself 17:52:36 If those two fail, then lock the doors of -social and redirect to #fedora 17:52:49 EvilBob: +1 17:52:52 the FAQ is freaking clear 17:53:02 #idea allow a moderate amount of technical discussion on -social, when it clearly becomes support, find an appropriate venue for it 17:53:03 but see, i think that's still very rigid 17:53:04 DO I have to repeat it again? 17:53:11 did we send support questions to social? 17:53:18 nirik: Yes 17:53:21 dcr226: +1 17:53:24 nirik: some do 17:53:30 dcr226: +1 17:53:34 yeah, I agree we should not do that... 17:53:35 Wait 17:53:48 What about my proposal that is on the table 17:53:55 EvilBob, I was just wording that 17:54:00 No you didn't 17:54:13 no, I'm doing it now, splitting it into two 17:54:19 I propose two things, loosen up on what is supported for Fedora users in #fedora and we quit sending support questions to -social. If those two fail, then lock the doors of -social and redirect to #fedora 17:54:28 It's not two things 17:54:48 an analogy..... I don't really like answering questions about tech when I'm playing softball. I'll do it to be polite, but I don't like it... social is our softball team 17:54:52 dcr226: he's wanting looser support questions in #fedora, not social 17:55:23 * dcr226 thinks once it becomes support, it should be directed to either #fedora or an appropriate channel, -social isn't a support venue 17:55:29 so that all tech support questions end up in #fedora 17:55:39 which i think has been discouraged in the past 17:55:56 there's a difference between technical discussion, and support 17:55:56 mock: by some ops 17:55:58 generally #fedora is fedora directly related 17:56:14 mock, discouraged...only because we dont have general tech domain experts in channel 17:56:15 dcr226: symantics? 17:56:20 definitely not 17:56:26 * nirik is -1 to EvilBob's. I am fine with the first part, but I don't agree with the second. 17:56:46 spoleeba: don't think of it during softball but rather out to dinner 17:56:57 EvilBob, I don't think any support questions should be sent to -social, and I don't think we should ever redirect it 17:57:07 nirik: SO you are OK with sending support questions to -social, this goes agains the FAQ 17:57:14 no. 17:57:15 mock, personally..if someone comes into #fedora with a question about tech fedora ships..that I dont use..ill go out of my way to figure it out and help them 17:57:29 I am fine with " loosen up on what is supported for Fedora users in #fedora and we quit sending support questions to -social. " 17:57:32 nirik: You said you were against the second 17:57:40 I am not fine with " If those two fail, then lock the doors of -social and redirect to #fedora" 17:57:42 mock, but if its a random other tech question and Im not a domain expert....then well..they get silence 17:57:45 OK 17:57:58 spoleeba: general linux question? 17:58:10 right, so lets hammer the minutes with it then please and make a descision 17:58:12 mock, im not answering android linux questions 17:58:13 * jsmith is +1 to to "allow a moderate amount of technical discussion on -social, when it clearly becomes support, find an appropriate venue for it" 17:58:19 mock, because well..im not an expert in it 17:58:34 I'll say this, if support questions are going to be allowed in -social we better start allowing BSing in #fedora also 17:58:39 mock, if I can reproduce it on a linux system...ill play with it and try to provide them some context if I have the time 17:58:45 EvilBob, so we're all in agreement that no support questions should e directed at -social, and we shouldn't redirect it? 17:58:52 spoleeba: the question is where should those be asked? or more specifically, is it ok in -social? 17:58:54 mock, err fedora system 17:58:55 EvilBob: no support question in -social and f someone start by mistake or without knowledge they should be advised to #fedora 17:59:16 dcr226: fedora support 17:59:25 mock, again.... if social is like dinner or a softball team.....its rude to ask that sort of crap in there 17:59:40 #idea should support (directly requesting help with fixing an issue) be directed at #fedora-social? 17:59:41 i think just "support" is too abstract for why i put the ticket in 17:59:46 mock, the questions will get asked....everywhere....because the people asking need answers _now_ 17:59:47 rockworldmi: In my perfect world, there would never have been a need for #fedora-social to exist 17:59:58 mock, the issue is what do we feel compelled to provide answer for 17:59:59 we have in the past compared it to the break room... ie, folks who want to relax and not talk about their support issues or the like. 18:00:25 mock, in #fedora.. i feel compelled to try to answer if its fedora tech... in social I feel compelled to tell them I'm eating dinner and they are being rude 18:00:26 EvilBob: +1 18:00:33 please...can we address the issues, and not the semantics? support and technical discussion are two different things. What was going on was support 18:00:55 #idea should support (directly requesting help with fixing an issue) be directed at #fedora-social? 18:01:03 my opinion, never 18:01:08 +1 18:01:09 * jsmith is fine with technical discusssion in -social, less so with support 18:01:22 dcr226: i think add "fedora" before support for clafication 18:01:32 dcr226, in #social... i will talk with my peers about pretty much anything...because my peers know enough not to pester me for detailed time sensitive help 18:01:45 spoleeba, right, and thats how it should be really 18:01:47 dcr226, if its time sensitive need...its not #social 18:01:48 OK so everyone is saying keep -social as per the FAQ 18:01:56 no need to vote on that, no change 18:02:11 so, no linux questions in -social 18:02:13 ever 18:02:21 else kicked and banned? 18:02:25 mock, no...its just support generally, bash if you like...I wouldn't want someone pestering me for help with their script on -social 18:02:26 i just want to be clear on it 18:02:36 proposal: 1. loosen up what is supported in #fedora, 2. Do not redirect support questions to social, 3. allow a moderate amount of technical discussion on -social, redirect if it turns into support. 18:02:40 mock, but discussions about linux...fine 18:02:50 Then it becomes an issue of the #fedora general practice of some ops sending people to -social 18:03:06 nirik: +1 18:03:07 nirik, yep, thats where we should be...lets make it an action on descision (imho) 18:03:14 * dcr226 still doesn't care about his spelling 18:03:28 mock, I could wax eloquent for days about qnx versus linux kernel.... and soemone in #social might actual like that discussion 18:03:29 ok, nirik +1 18:03:34 awesome! 18:03:37 nope .justfun and music on fedora-social....rockmyworld baby.. 18:03:45 #action 1. loosen up what is supported in #fedora, 2. Do not redirect support questions to social, 3. allow a moderate amount of technical discussion on -social, redirect if it turns into support. 18:03:45 spoleeba: i don't consider what you do bannable...or kickable 18:03:52 but neither what kc8hfi did either 18:03:58 spoleeba: but that is discussion, and is acceptable 18:03:59 * dcr226 hopes everyone was happy with that, otherwise the log is going to be a mess 18:04:08 mock, right its the people who pop in with a time critical need and expecting help 18:04:23 if someone gets told where to go for uspport, and continues, then kick them 18:04:25 spoleeba: but help with what? 18:04:40 mock: It was not just about the single time 18:04:42 mock, i dont care what it is....time critical help in #social is rude 18:04:51 but if i know i can ask about general linux (quick) questions in #fedora, i'm fine 18:04:56 I think this issue has been dealt with? 18:05:12 and also take a quick vote of oops before banning or kicking ..single op decision might not be of noble .. 18:05:19 rockworldmi, not doable 18:05:25 it aint the UN 18:05:29 mock: it was about the history of the open ended, kinda asking for support statements that turn in to someone jumping up to help. 18:05:32 mock, i dont see a reason to keep people from asking more general questions in #fedora..they just cant keep frelling repeating them when they dont get answers 18:05:33 dcr226: if nirik's statement is the action item, i'm +1 with it 18:05:39 mock, yeah it was 18:05:43 and ticket can be closed 18:05:46 dcr226: k..sorry for my bad english .. 18:05:50 and you already +1'd it :-) 18:06:01 mock, like I said...if its a fedora tech questions..even if I cant answer it..ill respond in #fedora during my personal office hours 18:06:01 mock: I thank you for bringing this up 18:06:04 dcr226: then i guess i +2-ed it 18:06:05 :) 18:06:07 Hah 18:06:09 mock, other questions...im just not responding to 18:06:12 +1 on nirik's proposal 18:06:15 EvilBob: we good then? 18:06:24 cool, we're gold 18:06:32 mock: Yeah 100% that is what my end goal was 18:06:43 * mock offers EvilBob teh bacon of friendship as a sign 18:06:46 EvilBob: cool 18:06:51 * mock is done 18:06:51 anyone got a burning issue keeping them up at night, as to how Bob handled the situation, or can we just leave his methods of policing the channel up to him? 18:07:11 how about some more warning before kicking/banning? 18:07:18 EvilBob, ?^ 18:07:39 kc8hfi: they do give warning ...:) 18:07:40 again, in the past on some items it was said "no warnings" 18:07:51 * dcr226 is +0, thinks the channel gets policed just fine right now 18:08:01 kc8hfi: I had mentioned it to you in the past about support questions 18:08:27 spoleeba: can you code up some radar software for me so i can monitor for ufos? 18:08:30 ok, just a suggesting 18:08:36 spoleeba: ;) 18:08:37 kc8hfi: You were involved, had not asked your "question" in #fedora 18:08:55 so...put it to bed? 18:09:07 I always try to warn people 18:09:24 I feel it is the right thing to do even if jsmith disagrees with me 18:09:27 mock, uhm thats basically what I have now 18:09:32 spoleeba: :) 18:09:35 mock, cept there's no funding for UFOs just yet 18:09:39 EvilBob: ok 18:09:42 in ALL situations 18:09:48 can we move on? 18:09:54 EvilBob: If I did say "no warnings" in the past (which I really don't think I did, but I'd be happy to admit I was wrong), I apologize 18:09:57 dcr226: +1 18:10:03 EvilBob: In general, I think a warning is a good idea 18:10:06 dcr226: +1 18:10:11 someone wanna close the ticket? 18:10:16 i'll do it 18:10:25 jsmith: It was the week we had to cover the nick change policy 18:10:29 wait, can i? 18:10:34 mock: yes you can 18:10:37 ok 18:10:39 i'll get it 18:10:40 .moarbacon everyone 18:10:40 everyone, here, have some more bacon 18:11:04 EvilBob, wanna go from here? I think its open-floor now 18:11:10 yup yup 18:11:23 #topic Open Floor 18:11:23 Does anyone have anything to add? 18:11:42 only my comment about the number of users on #fedora seeming to diminish 18:11:53 EvilBob: about the bot ? bots should be allowed only in bot channel 18:11:55 dcr226: Users are getting better? 18:12:07 well yeah, thats maybe one reason for it 18:12:10 rockworldmi: We have discussed this in the past 18:12:33 I don't think its trivial to find #fedora as a support venue from the main website 18:12:40 jsmith, any thoughts? ^^ 18:12:43 EvilBob: ohh..sorry i want there ,,and also i apologize for using @weather everytime i enter -social 18:12:55 rockworldmi: "fun bots" are allowed in #fedora-social because well it is social to goof around 18:13:04 as i didnt knew there was seperate bot channel 18:13:05 within reason 18:13:18 rockworldmi: I was only goofing around that day, and wondering if you did, it is far from a problem with me 18:13:24 EvilBob: so i can @weather everytime i enter channel ?? 18:13:28 dcr226: I don't have any problem with bots in -social 18:13:32 rockworldmi: sure 18:13:37 jsmith, nah, the support users things 18:13:39 thing 18:13:43 EvilBob: ohh..i thought you were seriuos ...heheheh lol 18:13:47 I don't think its trivial to find #fedora as a support venue from the main website 18:13:54 rockworldmi: Srry that was not clear 18:13:58 dcr226: Ah, that... 18:14:00 :-) 18:14:20 and also i forgot the bot channel ??fedora-bot?? 18:14:28 didn't know you could lean on anyone, if other folks agree its not easy to find #fedora 18:14:33 dcr226: The problem is as we know some disagree with the support that is given in #fedora 18:14:44 dcr226, EvilBob: this good for a resolution? http://www.fpaste.org/ugXO/ 18:14:52 dcr226: To be blunt, I think in times past people have been hesitant to advertise it as a support venue, due to personality conflicts 18:15:09 dcr226: Hopefully most if not all of those are behind us now, and we can work to make that better 18:15:20 mock: +1 18:15:25 dcr226: Personally, I'm all for asking the websites team if they can make it more visible 18:15:26 well, we (the support-sig) work hard to fix those issues jsmith 18:15:28 ok 18:15:39 mock: +1 18:15:39 and I think that its worked! :-) 18:15:48 dcr226: I know you do, and I've seen a great improvement over the past couple of years 18:15:52 done 18:16:01 ok so... 18:16:29 There was a idea to put support resources in default bookmarks... 18:16:30 #idea does anyone think we should try to increase the advertising presence for #fedora on the main website? we seem to be loosing users ;-( 18:16:37 but dunno what happened with that effort. 18:16:37 nirik, that would be awesome imho 18:16:43 can I ask that jsmith handle dealing with the Websites team, I sure as hell am not going to do it after the last time. 18:16:50 EvilBob, LOL 18:16:53 hahahaha, nor I 18:17:33 I don't know what is in the bookmarks at this time 18:17:54 EvilBob, interestingly enough, fedorasolved is 18:17:55 perhaps we should look around first... 18:18:01 but at one time we did not have a wiki page to direct a link to 18:18:05