17:00:14 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2012-08-02)
17:00:14 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Aug  2 17:00:14 2012 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:14 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:15 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
17:00:15 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
17:00:15 <nirik> #topic init process
17:00:23 <nirik> who all is around for a irc support sig meeting?
17:00:27 * |N3LRX| 
17:00:31 * OzBorne 
17:00:33 * Discordian is
17:00:38 * EvilBob 
17:00:46 * pingou 
17:01:23 <vwbusguy> hi
17:01:29 * vwbusguy 
17:01:36 <nirik> ok, lets go ahead and start on in then...
17:01:42 <nirik> #topic Week in review
17:01:42 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
17:01:59 <nirik> anyone have anything to note from this last week? common bugs or issues we are seeing a lot of?
17:02:42 * nirik thinks it was pretty typical...
17:02:47 <nirik> ok, moving on then...
17:02:51 <nirik> #topic ticket 122: #fedora irc bot requests feedback too often
17:02:53 <Discordian> nothing stands out
17:03:07 <nirik> do we want to adjust the frequency on the bot feedback message?
17:03:13 <EvilBob> The bot is doing it's job
17:03:25 <EvilBob> I don't think we need to adjust it
17:03:27 <pingou> we got a ticket from it, so to me, it is working :p
17:03:35 * nirik doesn't feel strongly about it either way
17:04:16 <nirik> any other thoughts?
17:04:20 <|N3LRX|> I don't see any reason to change it.
17:04:58 <EvilBob> I said my bit on the ticket
17:05:09 <Discordian> lets leave it be
17:05:19 <nirik> do we want to perhaps change the wording again? if people tune out what they see varying the wording might get more feedback?
17:05:29 * nirik is fine also with leaving it alone.
17:06:09 <nirik> ok, lets just leave it be...
17:06:11 <EvilBob> I say leave it, if someone wants to work up a new announcement, bring it to the next meeting.
17:06:30 <EvilBob> I do not think we need to change the rate
17:06:30 <nirik> #agreed will keep the frequency as is, alternate wording welcome for review.
17:06:49 <nirik> #topic ticket 123: not being felt welcomed in IRC, might not come back
17:07:10 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/123
17:07:12 <EvilBob> The pasted log was hard to read
17:07:17 <nirik> yeah, agreed.
17:07:25 <Discordian> I apologise if i upset them
17:07:38 * nirik wonders if he could fix it.
17:07:40 <pingou> odt ??
17:07:49 <EvilBob> we might need to specify to attach the log rather than paste it inline
17:08:23 * nirik edited the ticket to make the log better.
17:09:29 <nirik> so, on this I think several things: the user seemed to be over sensitive and focus on one thing...
17:09:58 <nirik> and was also not super great in describing the problem. Also, it seems like another pile on case... too many cooks were confusing them too.
17:10:35 <EvilBob> the pile on situation keeps happening
17:11:00 <nirik> Discordian: I don't see what really you did that upset them so much... I guess suggesting that they can't learn multiple distros at once...
17:11:19 <EvilBob> He did not pull out his spoon...
17:11:35 <pingou> nirik: being a bit sarcastic ?
17:11:36 <Discordian> I suppose that was it
17:11:43 <Discordian> and that
17:11:54 <nirik> dunno.
17:12:14 <pingou> I think that's the one, you were a bit sarcastic and not really helpful and they don't like this from an OP
17:12:21 <pingou> but that's my interpretation
17:12:30 <Discordian> Don't see I was that bad
17:12:45 <EvilBob> I had a related rant of sorts that I posted on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/rpjensen/posts/315400498556408
17:13:00 <nirik> anyhow, I would suggest: we thank them for the feedback... tell them that Discordian is sorry if they were upset, and to try and relax and not focus on single people if they are upset by them
17:13:25 <pingou> I would be more curious about the logs from -ops, that should have clarified thing I'd think
17:13:35 <nanonyme> are there any kind of OP guidelines this can be reflected against, btw?
17:13:50 <EvilBob> If you are leaving, leave. a whole "ESR Move"  with a big announcement "Oh you suck, I'm leaving" is pointless and a waste of resources.
17:14:02 <pingou> EvilBob: ^^
17:14:30 <nirik> nanonyme: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC_operators_code_of_conduct but it's old and needs rework I suspect.
17:14:56 <vwbusguy> not all that old, like 2-3yrs-ish
17:15:20 <EvilBob> here is the intro to the -ops interaction that could have been better
17:15:28 <EvilBob> * Tigz (~tigz@60-242-214-110.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #fedora-ops
17:15:28 <EvilBob> <Tigz> hi all
17:15:28 <EvilBob> <Discordian> Why are you here Tigz ?
17:15:28 <EvilBob> <Tigz> because of you discordian
17:15:35 <EvilBob> <Anvil> because he's been invited.
17:15:35 <EvilBob> <Discordian> You have a complaint about me?
17:15:35 <EvilBob> <Tigz> yes, it seems you are discordian uk
17:15:42 * Sonar_Gal is here
17:15:46 <Sonar_Gal> Sorry been busy
17:15:49 <EvilBob> that was all in less than a minute time
17:16:16 <pingou> EvilBob: does he say more ?
17:16:25 <EvilBob> the "Why are you here" was a little bit more gruff/abrasive than it should have been
17:16:35 <EvilBob> pingou: Let me fpaste more
17:16:48 <pingou> well the "Why are you here" is quite common on -ops ^^
17:17:03 <vwbusguy> Tone of voice doesn't tend to translate well over text, unfortunately
17:17:17 <Discordian> I apologise
17:17:32 <EvilBob> http://fpaste.org/6moY/
17:17:51 <nirik> yeah, nor sarcasm... thats why it's important to try and see things from other peoples side and assume the best instead of the worst.
17:18:16 <pingou> I think the easiest is what nirik said earlier
17:18:54 <nanonyme> nirik, right. so if there'd be need for an action point, imo seeing if guidelines need updating would make sense. Discordian seemed to me to be rather direct, perhaps to the extent of being a tad offensive in a limited fashion
17:19:17 <EvilBob> I would have liked to know what "rules" they are referring to in line 13 of my paste
17:19:35 <nanonyme> (not enough that I'd have reacted like that though)
17:19:55 <vwbusguy> nirik: ++
17:19:57 <nirik> you can't legislate everything. ;)
17:20:14 <nirik> for someone to take offense, it not only has to be offered but you have to accept it.
17:20:19 <nanonyme> yeah, that's true too
17:20:51 <vwbusguy> nanonyme: you can propose an update to the guidelines if you wish, but I don't think it's necessary in this case
17:21:01 <vwbusguy> nanonyme: "patches welcome"
17:21:18 <nirik> anyhow, my suggestion stands... anyone want to provide an alternate ?
17:22:55 <EvilBob> nirik: go for it
17:23:11 <nanonyme> nirik, hmm, do you reckon noting Discordian represented only his own opinions and not the projects makes sense?
17:23:18 <nirik> #agreed we thank them for the feedback... tell them that Discordian is sorry if they were upset, and to try and relax and not focus on single people if they are upset by them
17:23:23 <nirik> nanonyme: thats always the case.
17:23:28 <nirik> note the join message on #fedora.
17:23:32 <EvilBob> Discordian: apologize for the -ops part if YOU feel you should do so and work on it for the future.
17:23:54 <nanonyme> nirik, I'm fine with your suggestion then
17:24:07 <nirik> ok, anything else here? or shall we move on?
17:24:19 <pingou> b)
17:24:24 <nirik> #topic ticket 118: Invite FranciscoD to #fedora-ops
17:24:30 <nirik> is this still pending?
17:24:39 <nirik> or we were going to close it and open a new one if desired/
17:24:42 * nirik cannot recall
17:25:00 <EvilBob> Just a tip, if you ahve a confrontation with a user in #fedora butt out when they first join -ops
17:25:11 <nirik> EvilBob: good plan.
17:25:14 <pingou> seems fair EvilBob
17:25:15 <Discordian> Good point EvilBob
17:25:17 <nirik> let someone else handle it.
17:25:23 <EvilBob> Just close it, he was busy and did not seem all that interested
17:25:25 <Discordian> I shall do so
17:25:40 <nirik> #action nirik will close ticket, new one can be opened if desired.
17:25:50 <nirik> #topic ticket 124: Uban request
17:25:53 <nirik> OzBorne: you still here?
17:25:57 <OzBorne> yes
17:26:22 <EvilBob> OzBorne: Where are the logs that have been requested multiple times?
17:26:33 <OzBorne> in the ticket : odt
17:26:34 <pingou> EvilBob: on the odt file now attached
17:26:45 <OzBorne> i dont have all the logs
17:26:58 <OzBorne> those provided are examples
17:27:06 * pingou does find the chan quiet
17:27:26 <EvilBob> You don't have all the examples of the dozens of times you have been banned
17:27:35 <Discordian> #fedora or #fedora-fr?
17:27:44 <nirik> there's a previous ticket as well...
17:27:45 <OzBorne> i have problem to browse my log with irssi
17:28:07 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/110
17:28:09 <Discordian> i was noting I seem to have #1 on the channel logs on #fedora for ages
17:28:23 <Discordian> which is worrying
17:28:28 <nirik> in that ticket it was decided to give him another chance, but then that chance was used up too I fear.
17:29:06 <Sonar_Gal> I remember that
17:29:20 <nirik> so, my thought is to just wait until the next time we clear the list.
17:29:36 <|N3LRX|> He was given the rope and chose to hang himself. I don't see why he should be given another chance.
17:29:54 <OzBorne> due to something called forgiveness
17:30:07 <Discordian> Uh?
17:30:16 <OzBorne> like i ask in the ticket #124
17:30:20 <EvilBob> So you have no #fedora logs
17:30:26 <EvilBob> Brilliant
17:30:31 <Sonar_Gal> We have a ban system in place for a reason.  We have given many chances that were thrown back in our faces
17:30:35 <OzBorne> yes i provided a samble
17:30:39 <OzBorne> sample
17:30:43 <nirik> OzBorne: once per Fedora cycle we "forgive" everyone... and clear the list. I'd suggest you wait for that event now, and consider what actions you did that got you removed in the mean time.
17:30:44 <OzBorne> the last one is
17:31:32 <nirik> perhaps fedora-forum or mailing lists would be a good thing to try in the mean time?
17:31:40 <EvilBob> I see one attachment
17:31:42 <OzBorne> nirik> is that the opinion of everyone?
17:31:58 <EvilBob> one attachment for #fedora-social
17:32:08 <EvilBob> NO attachments for #fedora
17:32:08 <OzBorne> not only EvilBob
17:32:26 <OzBorne> 2 sample are provided in the same file
17:32:30 <OzBorne> 2 ban
17:33:10 <EvilBob> OzBorne: If you were not abusive to me, there would be no problem
17:33:15 <OzBorne> nirik> i may try mailing list
17:33:18 <EvilBob> I can't even read part of that paste
17:33:26 <OzBorne> EvilBob> you took a joke for a serious threat
17:33:30 <EvilBob> log, docuement whatever
17:33:37 <Sonar_Gal> I can't either
17:33:51 <EvilBob> OzBorne: And the insults you sent me in a PM this morning?
17:34:00 <OzBorne> what insults?
17:34:06 <OzBorne> it is not
17:34:09 <pingou> EvilBob: maybe you can add them to the ticket
17:34:11 <EvilBob> OzBorne: Go to the third floor, see Helen Waite
17:34:26 <EvilBob> OzBorne: That is my advice to you
17:34:42 <OzBorne> EvilBob> most of time you were rude or disrespectful online
17:34:50 <nirik> OzBorne: jokes don't translate well over irc with people you don't know
17:34:58 <EvilBob> OzBorne: You have no idea what you are talking about
17:34:58 <OzBorne> nirik> ok
17:35:09 <Sonar_Gal> OzBorne, reading that log I told you to behave and you ignored me.  EvilBob did not ban you from either channel #fedora or #fedora-social.
17:35:23 <OzBorne> okay
17:35:29 <EvilBob> Oh, I have banned him many times
17:35:34 <EvilBob> Lets make sure that is clear
17:35:46 <Sonar_Gal> EvilBob, I know but that time kk/southern banned him in -social
17:35:58 <Sonar_Gal> I have also banned him in -social
17:36:29 <EvilBob> We were more than tolerant of his behavior
17:36:30 <OzBorne> ok, im 40 year and im depressed...
17:36:43 <EvilBob> OzBorne: then get some medication
17:36:47 <OzBorne> irc is a way for me to get out of loneliness and chatting
17:36:51 <Sonar_Gal> OzBorne, And that's our problem.
17:36:51 <nirik> anyhow, proposed: Please try alternative support channels for now perhaps one will suit you better, and when we clear bans at F18beta you can try again.
17:36:51 <OzBorne> EvilBob> i do already
17:37:24 <Sonar_Gal> Please don't let me act like that at 40!!  only 24 more days to go
17:37:41 <OzBorne> okay
17:37:42 <EvilBob> OzBorne: Good, I am very happy to hear that, I hope that when you return you will allow us all to have a better experience and interaction.
17:37:42 <|N3LRX|> +1 nirik
17:37:54 <Sonar_Gal> +1 nirik
17:37:59 <Discordian> +1
17:38:06 <nirik> we should all try and forgive and forget at that time, and hopefully, yeah, we all get along better then
17:38:30 <Discordian> @f18release
17:38:47 <OzBorne> :/
17:39:01 <Discordian> Not that long
17:39:05 <nirik> OzBorne: sorry if we couldn't unban you now, but please do try and relax and do better when/if you rejoin?
17:39:07 <EvilBob> 2 months
17:39:27 <EvilBob> Beta should be in October
17:39:38 <Discordian> indeed
17:39:48 <OzBorne> EvilBob> let me tell  you that your attitude was not always very clear
17:40:08 <nirik> OzBorne: I'd advise skipping the jokes and trying to stay on topic as you can...
17:40:12 <nirik> anyhow...
17:40:15 <EvilBob> OzBorne: I asked you to leave me alone, quit pinging me every time you joined the channel
17:40:15 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
17:40:21 <nirik> anything for open floor?
17:40:27 <EvilBob> OzBorne: You refused
17:40:36 <OzBorne> EvilBob> you are not the pope
17:40:40 <EvilBob> I was VERY clear in that request
17:40:41 * Sonar_Gal passes the coffee, dew and bacon around the room
17:40:41 <OzBorne> lol
17:40:50 <Discordian> Not from me
17:40:53 <pingou> thanks Sonar_Gal
17:41:01 <nirik> harrassing someone is not a way to get on their good side.
17:41:05 <pingou> shall I make some tea Discordian ?
17:41:07 <EvilBob> OzBorne: I am not to blame for every malfunction you have in your life
17:41:23 <EvilBob> I have had NOTHING to do with your repeated bans in #fedora-fr
17:41:24 <OzBorne> no you arent just for the direspect you had
17:41:33 <Sonar_Gal> nope only every malfunction in my life!!!
17:41:41 <Discordian> I've had my evening repast thanks
17:41:45 <EvilBob> Sonar_Gal: It's all out of love...
17:41:48 <EvilBob> ;)
17:41:53 <Sonar_Gal> :)
17:42:00 <nirik> ok, if nothing comes up to actually discuss in the next minute or so, will close out the meeting
17:42:01 <OzBorne> however, can pingou do something for my ban from #fedora-fr?
17:42:25 <EvilBob> OzBorne: You burned the bridge in #fedora-fr I am afraid
17:42:25 <nirik> OzBorne: offtopic to this meeting.
17:42:30 <Discordian> The -fr ban is beyond the scope of here
17:42:52 <EvilBob> OzBorne: Calling channel ops on the phone is WAY out of line
17:42:52 <OzBorne> i see
17:43:08 <OzBorne> EvilBob> i see you have informations...
17:43:20 <OzBorne> perhaps working for CIA of FBI?
17:43:27 * nirik rolls eyes.
17:43:30 <pingou> only NSA
17:43:32 <nirik> ok, this meeting is done.
17:43:35 <nirik> thanks for coming everyone.
17:43:38 <nirik> #endmeeting