17:05:27 <dcr226> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2012-08-23)
17:05:27 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Aug 23 17:05:27 2012 UTC.  The chair is dcr226. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:05:27 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:05:39 <dcr226> #meetingname irc-support-sig
17:05:39 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
17:05:47 <dcr226> #topic init process
17:06:03 * N3LRX 
17:06:26 <dcr226> #topic Week in review
17:06:36 <dcr226> #link http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
17:06:49 <dcr226> okie dokie...anyone with anything from this week?
17:07:29 * nirik has not much. pretty typical week
17:07:49 <dcr226> I managed to inadvertently clear the ban list a few weeks and, and re-banned on the basis that fedbot would do the un-banning when the timer ticked over. It didn't work. Sorry to anyone who got affected with that :/
17:07:57 <Discordian> Just a thought if services keeping going AWOL we should remove the +r from #fedora
17:08:31 <dcr226> how often has ChanServ gone missing?
17:08:44 <N3LRX> Good point. That's been happening a lot lately.
17:08:49 <Discordian> It was also nickserv
17:08:49 <nirik> it's been wonky the last few days, but hopefully they have it fixed now
17:09:10 <N3LRX> Service went missing for several hours yesterday.
17:09:18 <Discordian> yep
17:09:32 <nirik> yeah, power outage in datacenter, they lost a major node for a bit.
17:09:44 <dcr226> doesn't that then mean that the channel flags don't actually work?
17:10:07 <Discordian> it meant no one could join #fedora or -ops
17:10:10 <dcr226> I'd got someone banned from one of my channels, and they managed to re-enter yesterday..didn't know if it was the same thing
17:10:16 <dcr226> oh..ok
17:10:43 <Sonar_Gal> and if ChanServ is down you can not op unless fedbot is in there
17:10:51 <dcr226> personally I don't think we need to -r the channel. Perhaps we can do it ad-hoc in ops if ChanServ starts dissappearing more?
17:11:08 <nirik> yeah, a SOP for when/if there are outages might be good...
17:11:12 <Discordian> you can't get into #fedora-ops either
17:11:17 <nirik> but otherwise, hopefully it's not going to happen much
17:11:35 <dcr226> Discordian, we know how to contact each other in that case
17:11:42 * Discordian nods
17:11:58 <dcr226> so..
17:12:05 * dcr226 -1 to changing the channel modes today
17:12:21 * nirik too
17:12:33 <Discordian> I was just suggesting we might have to consider it
17:12:37 <Discordian> 0
17:12:42 <dcr226> Discordian, yeah, good point
17:12:47 <Sonar_Gal> -1
17:12:51 <Sonar_Gal> No need
17:12:58 <dcr226> ok then, next up..
17:12:59 <dcr226> #topic ticket 125 - RFC: how to file a trac ticket
17:13:08 <dcr226> #link https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/125
17:13:37 <nirik> this looked nice to me.
17:14:01 <dcr226> yep, I say let it fly..the ticket had no comments or suggestions so assume it is perfect and accept suggestions later on
17:14:16 <Discordian> seems fine
17:14:35 <Sonar_Gal> looks good to me
17:14:39 <N3LRX> Job well done.
17:14:55 <dcr226> ok, shall we rubber-stamp it and thank Ankur for the work?
17:15:02 <Discordian> +1
17:15:09 <N3LRX> +1
17:15:35 <Sonar_Gal> +1
17:15:40 <dcr226> #note https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/125 looks just fine, take it out of draft. Thank Ankur in the ticket
17:16:11 <dcr226> #topic ticket 126 - very unfriendly and harsh attitude
17:16:20 <dcr226> #link https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/126
17:17:14 <Discordian> Someone with an attitude
17:17:51 <nirik> note that this ticket just showed up this morning.
17:17:52 <pingou> well I can see his point as well
17:17:55 <Discordian> Evilbob did just fine there
17:18:02 <nirik> so I suspect many people haven't had time to read it. ;)
17:18:36 <pingou> well he didn't try to get the problem
17:19:10 <Discordian> The problem is very obscure and arcane
17:19:14 <pingou> and tbh, I don't see the link between a package and yum groupinstall
17:19:22 <pingou> I'd have said, yum search
17:20:01 <dcr226> personally I don't really see the issue here, just friction that ended up in a ticket
17:20:12 <Discordian> yeah
17:20:20 <pingou> dcr226: bob has been a little repetitive
17:20:20 <Sonar_Gal> I agree
17:20:27 <dcr226> but yeah, we can put it back to next week if people want? personally I'm "CLOSED - Thanks for the feedback"
17:20:35 <pingou> if he didn't want to help just let <adamt> or <FranciscoD> do it
17:20:38 <Sonar_Gal> you have to be repetitive if not getting answers
17:21:00 <pingou> Sonar_Gal: "rtfm" "thank you" -.
17:21:05 <pingou> not really helping
17:21:21 <dcr226> pingou, I see "<EvilBob> man yum" only once in that channel
17:21:21 <Sonar_Gal> spoonfeeding is not helpful either
17:21:31 <pingou> but that's just my opinion, I can understand the reporter's pov that's all I say
17:21:33 <dcr226> pingou, also, EvilBob didn't actually say "rtfm"
17:21:33 <Discordian> Quite
17:21:50 <dcr226> jeez... s/channel/log
17:22:06 <pingou> dcr226:  <EvilBob> read the man page for yum (at least twice)
17:22:08 <dcr226> pingou, unless you are seeing something I'm not?
17:22:23 <Sonar_Gal> I see no problem with that
17:22:28 <Discordian> That is also what I'd have said pingou
17:22:41 <Sonar_Gal> That helps a user learn how to see what packages and updates are available
17:22:54 <dcr226> oh, yeah..I see that now. I also still have the same opinion
17:23:03 <EvilBob> Sorry I was AFK
17:23:26 <pingou> I just think replying yum search would have been and faster and nicer
17:23:52 <pingou> or yum whatprovides
17:24:25 <EvilBob> pingou: I could have copied and pasted the man page I suppose
17:24:38 <N3LRX> I don't see any real issue here. Looks like a user did not get the expected spoon feeding so they developed an attitude.
17:24:39 <pingou> EvilBob: ^^
17:24:44 <dcr226> I had a user yesterday that I spewed a one-liner at to fix his problem. He took my command, changed it around a little because he felt like it..and it didn't work...summary: Spoonfeeding commands does not work
17:24:59 <pingou> saying "the issue is you" isn't quite nice either
17:25:11 <Discordian> Agreed dcr226
17:25:17 <pingou> anyway, all I say is that I understand you may not appreciate such interaction
17:26:06 <dcr226> anyway...what shall we do? my proposal is: Thanks for the input, CLOSED
17:26:08 <EvilBob> The user chose to argue with me rather than review the man page at all
17:26:22 <Discordian> +1 dcr226
17:26:41 <N3LRX> +1
17:27:07 <EvilBob> The user's issue did not end with the ticket BTW
17:27:19 <dcr226> pingou, any thoughts? or just happy to have your voice heard?
17:27:40 <EvilBob> they came back and needed more help that would habe been resolved had they read the man page.
17:27:57 <pingou> dcr226: well I am wondering the point of asking for tickets if we don't try to put ourself on the reporter's shoes to try to make ourselves better
17:28:22 <dcr226> pingou, sure..what do you suggest?
17:28:30 <pingou> you know, trying to remember when we were the one that didn't know the right keyword to search for on google
17:28:40 <nirik> so, I think there's a spectrum here...
17:29:01 <nirik> on one end we could replace #fedora with a bot that says "please google or read the man pages. good luck"
17:29:03 <EvilBob> pingou: Do you see my initial answer to the user?
17:29:19 <nirik> on the other it would be "please wait while we login to your machine and do everything. hold on. ok, your problem is fixed."
17:29:30 <dcr226> nirik, +1 #2
17:29:30 <nirik> both ends are bad, IMHO. :)
17:29:33 <dcr226> ;-)
17:29:34 <pingou> EvilBob: man yum :)
17:29:57 <EvilBob> not complete
17:30:07 <pingou> EvilBob: then groups
17:30:25 <pingou> but the guy had just arrived, did not even finish to explain his problem
17:30:26 <nirik> I think when someone doesn't get the higher level answer, repeating it is unlikely to help. Perhaps get more specific? 'man yum and look at $foo section'
17:30:26 <EvilBob> <EvilBob> adamt: man yum
17:30:26 <EvilBob> <EvilBob> adamt: read about groups, listing and installing them
17:30:39 <EvilBob> 30 seconds later they responded
17:30:54 <EvilBob> <adamt> EvilBob, that hardly helps if the software isn't available in the official repos in the first place.
17:30:58 <pingou> francisco tried to get more info on the problem itself
17:30:58 <EvilBob> 30 seconds
17:31:21 <EvilBob> they did no take the time to even look to see if they could have been helped
17:31:22 <pingou> EvilBob: so he was looking for a way to search/check if a package/file exists
17:31:43 <N3LRX> If the software isn't in the official repos we don't support it.
17:31:51 <pingou> EvilBob: come on, man page are often large to very large and often undigest for beginner (or even advanced) user
17:31:55 <EvilBob> they responded that it was not helpful with out even looking at all
17:32:06 <pingou> and it's even worst if english isn't their native language
17:32:14 <EvilBob> pingou: EXACTLY my point
17:32:30 <dcr226> ok...so we should put this back on track
17:32:46 <EvilBob> 30 seconds was not even enough time for anyone.
17:33:41 <EvilBob> As I told the user, time stamps are important when sharing logs
17:34:09 <dcr226> generally speaking the support level in #fedora is very good (grep -c "thank" your #fedora log for proof imho), EvilBob's style of supporting people is different to mine, and everyone elses...I'm not sure what we can do here apart from "try not to leap in with RTFM when the user doesn't want to digest it"
17:34:17 <dcr226> maybe someone could phrase that better than I
17:34:17 <EvilBob> If it had been 10 minutes before they responded...
17:34:50 <EvilBob> the result would have been different
17:35:01 <pingou> let's just try to not give man as the first response to a question unless the question is really well explained ;-)
17:35:13 <pingou> otherwise dcr226 +1
17:35:50 <dcr226> personally, I like to "man foo, and take a look at blah"
17:36:03 <dcr226> but I don't always do that
17:36:08 <EvilBob> dcr226: that is what I did
17:36:36 <dcr226> yeah
17:37:14 <dcr226> so I really don't know what we can do here. Some of us would have given him the command, some would have "man foo", some would have "Unsupported software CALL THE COPS!!"
17:37:23 <EvilBob> So you all are saying "I would do what you did but you shouldn't"
17:37:41 <dcr226> EvilBob, I said nothing of the sort...I've already said "nothing to see here"
17:37:54 <pingou> EvilBob: I think I would have tried first to understand his exact question/problem
17:37:59 <dcr226> <dcr226> anyway...what shall we do? my proposal is: Thanks for the input, CLOSED
17:38:23 <pingou> dcr226: "Thank for your input, we will try to take it into account for the future" closed
17:38:51 <dcr226> yeah, I'm happy with that..its a trivial issue imho that is getting slightly blown up
17:38:54 * EvilBob notes that this ticket was not on the agenda before meeting time
17:39:06 <dcr226> EvilBob, I asked if anyone wanted it pushing back
17:39:28 <Sonar_Gal> I actually think it is a non issue ticket
17:39:51 <dcr226> Sonar_Gal, same here, total non-issue
17:39:59 * EvilBob nods
17:40:14 <Sonar_Gal> ok next
17:40:18 <pingou> yup
17:40:29 <dcr226> ok, can someone close it?
17:40:47 <dcr226> assuming that is what we've agreed to do?
17:40:49 <EvilBob> I just don't want it to appear that it is being swept under the rug
17:41:11 <dcr226> its not, there is nothing to be gained here afaics
17:41:37 <dcr226> unless someone can come up with a suggestion for an _action_ we can take, then vote on that action...we close it "thanks"
17:41:40 <dcr226> (IMHO)
17:41:46 <Sonar_Gal> we can leave it till next week so no one can say anything
17:42:03 <dcr226> yeah, whatever..I'm bored of it now :-)
17:42:04 <pingou> maybe good to keep it open for few days at least
17:42:10 <Sonar_Gal> however this is the normal group that shows up to meetings
17:43:33 <dcr226> can we just close it and move on?
17:43:41 <nirik> +1 sure
17:44:02 <Discordian> +1
17:44:15 <dcr226> pingou, you good with that?
17:44:23 <pingou> dcr226: sure
17:44:49 <dcr226> cool, can someone close the ticket, with the appropriate response?
17:44:54 * dcr226 votes pingou
17:45:12 <pingou> ^^
17:45:14 <pingou> fair enough
17:45:22 <dcr226> #topic Open Floor
17:45:50 <EvilBob> I added a complete timestamped log
17:46:02 <dcr226> anyone for openfloor?
17:46:08 <EvilBob> Just so the record is clear
17:46:08 <pingou> nopee
17:46:15 <pingou> thanks EvilBob
17:46:31 * nirik has dogs laying on the floor here, it's not all that open.
17:46:38 <dcr226> Heh, same here
17:46:53 <dcr226> more like an obstacle course
17:46:57 <EvilBob> The user filing a ticket did not stop me from continuing to help them
17:47:32 <dcr226> ok to close?
17:47:54 <EvilBob> yup
17:47:55 <dcr226> #note bacon
17:47:57 <N3LRX> put a fork in it.
17:47:57 <dcr226> #endmeeting