18:00:18 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2013-05-16)
18:00:18 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu May 16 18:00:18 2013 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:18 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:19 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
18:00:19 <nirik> #topic init process
18:00:19 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
18:00:28 <nirik> who all is around for an irc support sig meeting?
18:00:37 * N3LRX is here.
18:00:46 * EvilBob 
18:02:07 <Apsu`> Not sure what it is, but it seemed interesting, so... here? :D
18:02:10 <nirik> ok, I guess lets go ahead and dive on in.
18:02:20 <nirik> #topic Week in review
18:02:38 <nirik> Apsu`: we are the group of folks that work to improve support in #fedora... :)
18:02:51 <nirik> anyone have items for week in review? common bugs or issues we are seeing more of?
18:02:57 <Apsu`> Assumed as much :)
18:03:22 <bitlord> I'm here, just watching :o) (about ticket 148 if it will be discussed here)
18:03:45 <EvilBob> I've nothing for the week in review
18:04:36 <nirik> ok, moving on to tickets then.
18:04:39 <nirik> #topic ticket #146 [Complaints about an irc OP] slighting ban on #fedora from fenrus02
18:04:53 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/146
18:05:08 <nirik> I added my thoughts there a while ago.
18:05:37 <nirik> The only thing I think we might look at: should we change the 'quiet' message to list the time so people freak out less?
18:05:49 <EvilBob> +1
18:06:06 <N3LRX> That's a good idea. +1
18:06:09 <nirik> the downside is that then some people might sit there waiting and start back in again in 15m...
18:06:12 <dcr226> nah, worked fine for the other 999999 people
18:06:21 <nirik> but it might make them less paniced...
18:06:26 <nirik> (some people)
18:06:44 <EvilBob> That user deserved the mute, and later ban(IIRC there was a later ban) they were belligerent.
18:06:53 <dcr226> I dont even think this is a discussion point personally, wrong OS, antagonistic user, CLOSED-Grow-Up-A-Bit
18:06:57 <dcr226> (IMHO) :-)
18:07:12 <EvilBob> Yeah, attention seeking IMO
18:07:38 <nirik> right.
18:07:50 <nirik> so, do we wish to adjust the quiet message? or just leave it?
18:08:17 * nirik is fine either way.
18:08:17 <EvilBob> Fix it!
18:08:25 <dcr226> well, the message does say "you have been quieted for 15 minutes" doesn't it?
18:08:35 <nirik> I don't think it lists the time.
18:08:38 * nirik checks
18:08:45 <EvilBob> If they want to hang out for 15min and start up again... they deserve the resulting ban
18:08:50 <dcr226> oh, ok..my bad, it says "temporary"
18:09:01 <dcr226> yeah, perhaps "15 minutes" should be there
18:09:20 <nirik> @config help supybot.plugins.Quiet.message
18:09:32 <dcr226> Heh..I actually made it a config item? lol
18:09:35 <dcr226> dcr226++
18:09:36 <nirik> :)
18:09:49 <nirik> ok, so s/temporarily/15 minutes/ ?
18:09:52 <dcr226> +1 here
18:10:04 <N3LRX> +1
18:10:15 <EvilBob> You have been quieted in this channel for 15 minutes. Please read the FAQ in the channel topic and consider changing your approach and/or the behavior that is disrupting the channel. If you feel this action was in error, please file a ticket at https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/
18:10:18 <EvilBob> +1
18:10:43 <nirik> ok.
18:10:50 <nirik> note that you can do quiet with longer values.
18:10:53 <nirik> but we seldom do
18:11:11 <nirik> @config supybot.plugins.Quiet.message You have been quieted in this channel for 15 minutes. Please read the FAQ in the channel topic and consider changing your approach and/or the behavior that is disrupting the channel. If you feel this action was in error, please file a ticket at https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/
18:11:17 <nirik> ok, moving on then...
18:11:19 <dcr226> rock'n'roll
18:11:23 <nirik> #topic ticket #145 Jordan_u helped me out with installing grub2 and saving my computer and data.
18:11:23 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/145
18:11:35 <nirik> kudos to jordan_u...
18:11:46 <EvilBob> Yay Jordan_U
18:11:54 <nirik> is there any way we should tell them that they got a kudo?
18:12:01 * nirik hasn't seen them on in a while.
18:12:06 <dcr226> nirik, @later tell?
18:12:24 <nirik> ha. they are on now. nice.
18:12:27 <dcr226> :)
18:12:33 <nirik> ok, next ticket? or anything else on this?
18:12:38 <EvilBob> I just posted it to #fedora
18:12:48 <nirik> thanks.
18:13:04 <nirik> #topic ticket #147 Feedback should be much easier to give
18:13:06 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/147
18:13:14 <nirik> so, this is kinda a novel. ;)
18:13:43 <nirik> I'm happy to look at simplifying the trac setup to be easier for people to use.
18:13:50 <nirik> not sure how, but willing to look
18:13:52 <dcr226> just a suggestion... CLOSED-TLDR?
18:13:57 <dcr226> (kidding!)
18:14:11 <bitlord> lol
18:14:33 <dcr226> We've discussed a karma system for #fedora before a few times..I think we even trialled it
18:14:38 <dcr226> not sure it was awesome previously
18:14:42 <nirik> it's active in fedbot, but not much used.
18:14:46 <N3LRX> Trac does seem a little confusing the first time you use it.
18:14:51 <nirik> @karma #fedora nirik
18:14:56 <EvilBob> I don't think it's working properly
18:14:56 <bitlord> maybe some FAS feature about rating other users/contributors ("FAS") ?
18:14:58 <nirik> @karma #fedora c
18:15:22 <bitlord> but they must be registered :S
18:15:38 <nirik> EvilBob: it doesn't scrape, you have to specifially do: @evilbob++ or fedbot: EvilBob++
18:15:48 <dcr226> also, ndroftheline isn't available, and I think their feedback would be important on this subject, so perhaps we can ask in the ticket *when* they are available to discuss?
18:16:05 <nirik> dcr226: sure. and/or keep discussing in ticket until we have action items.
18:16:14 <dcr226> I'd go with that
18:16:29 <mether> nirik, fedora tagger has a scoring system.  perhaps karma in irc should be integrated into a single score for the person for all his fedora contributions one way or the other
18:16:41 <dcr226> allow the ticket to mature in to a fine chianti before making final adjustments and rubber-stamping any actions
18:16:49 <N3LRX> +1 for leaving the ticket open for discussion.
18:16:56 <nirik> mether: it could be yeah. I worry about people misusing that tho...
18:17:09 <mether> yeah. possible
18:17:17 <nirik> like "I hate nirik, I'll get 20 of my friends to -- anything they do"
18:17:41 <nirik> or perhaps... we just do not do - karma. ;)
18:17:50 <EvilBob> s/nirik/*Bob*
18:17:51 <dcr226> its also easy to abuse in the other direction
18:17:53 <EvilBob> ;)
18:18:07 <nirik> dcr226: true.
18:18:24 <nirik> anyhow, I think easier feedback is good to a point.
18:18:28 <dcr226> we actually did this dance before we decided that the ticket system was the best option
18:18:35 <EvilBob> Nut up and file a ticket if'n it's important to you
18:18:40 <dcr226> the ticket system is less than ideal...but its not spammy (on the most part)
18:18:43 <nirik> anon or unverified feedback could lead to a bunch of junk
18:19:26 <nirik> anyhow, I think we should continue to discuss in ticket and see if we can have some actions out of the discussion...
18:19:34 <dcr226> +1 yarrr
18:19:59 <nirik> #topic ticket #148 Changes and improvements about #fedora and this report system.
18:20:06 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/148
18:20:11 <nirik> bitlord: this is yours. ;)
18:20:21 <bitlord> I know :D
18:20:25 * bitlord is happy \o/
18:20:32 <EvilBob> This ticket is a waste of our time
18:20:36 <bitlord> :(
18:20:45 <bitlord> you're evil Bob
18:20:46 <nirik> so, I think on the quiet vs ban, I don't care as long as quiet works.
18:20:50 <nirik> we would need to test it.
18:21:28 <dcr226> eh? seriously? we're getting worried about hurting people's feelings because they spam IRC?
18:21:34 <nirik> I seem to recall it didn't work for some reason.
18:21:53 <nirik> well, I don't know that I care about that, but the quiet seems like it would be 'cleaner' to me if it works.
18:21:58 <EvilBob> bitlord: I'm semi-joking because you are here.
18:22:18 <nirik> and the second part is already moved to infrastructure to fix. ;)
18:22:25 <dcr226> I don't know if the flood control plugin can be altered trivially to utilize quiet instead of /kick
18:22:32 <bitlord> dcr226, no, but they never come back, I think mostly about support, not much about feelings (there is no reason for that, about hurt feelings)
18:22:39 <nirik> I think it can, but I can't recall if there was some reason that didn't work.
18:22:41 <dcr226> bitlord, evidence?
18:22:44 <bitlord> EvilBob, ok :-)
18:22:51 <EvilBob> Kick is effective, most people's clients re-join on kick
18:22:52 <dcr226> every one I've seen booted for flooding, re-joins
18:23:11 <bitlord> dcr226, ok, not everyone, but most a lot of them, I don't have evidence. sorry
18:23:21 <dcr226> no, almost none
18:23:39 <EvilBob> a +m would prevent them from continuing seamlessly where a kick does not
18:23:42 <dcr226> I'm not being belligerant, but seriously...I cannot remember anyone getting up tight over a kick for flooding
18:24:10 <bitlord> ok, I saw that few time, but If you think it should not change, I'm OK with that, I know how to use IRC and don't have any problems.
18:24:12 <dcr226> EvilBob, true
18:24:31 <dcr226> bitlord, bit early to back down yet, we've only 4 minutes in! ;-)
18:24:36 <EvilBob> a +m that is too short in duration would allow the flood to continue with a throttled client
18:24:36 <nirik> it may be that supybot doesn't have a handy set of functions for 'quiet' as thats a freenode thing.
18:24:39 <dcr226> s/we've/we're
18:25:00 <N3LRX> kick, if the client has auto re-join is more effective. They can auto join after being kicked, but quiet would require a length of time so they will not be able to speak until x time has elapsed.
18:25:25 <dcr226> oh wait.. +q *is* better..
18:25:35 <EvilBob> My android client for example... maybe it's my bouncer... will throttle multiple sends to help prevent flooding
18:26:00 <dcr226> see, when you continue to post in a channel where you have been +q'd, the channel responds with "you cannot post, blah blah"...so they get to taste their own medicine for the remaining lines of the flood! :-)
18:26:11 <nirik> yep.
18:26:16 <bitlord> :-)
18:26:22 <EvilBob> in my case, sending 100 lines to the channel would result in repeated 30sec +m, or solved with a single kick
18:26:53 <nirik> right, some clients might also dump pastes queued up when they got kicked.
18:27:06 <EvilBob> It also would still allow all that flood to reach the channel causing disruption over and over again
18:27:09 <nirik> in fact the change is just removing the kick right?
18:27:24 <nirik> because +b and +q on a person in channel is just exactly the same.
18:27:41 <EvilBob> All clients that I know of flush a flood when kicked
18:27:43 <N3LRX> I think it's effective the way it is. Not perfect, but effective.
18:27:57 <EvilBob> N3LRX: +1
18:28:17 <EvilBob> More effective than a +b or +m
18:28:22 * nirik would be fine playing with it and see if removing the kick works any better for our needs, but I also am fine just leaving it.
18:28:56 <EvilBob> I think the kick is the most effective solution we have
18:29:09 <EvilBob> so Leave the kick
18:29:11 <EvilBob> +1
18:29:18 <nirik> +0
18:30:01 <N3LRX> +1
18:30:02 <EvilBob> If we plan to change it I would suggest extensive testing
18:30:10 <dcr226> HAHAHA
18:30:28 <dcr226> we could randomly kick people from -unreg, see if they get upset
18:30:32 <nirik> ok, sounds like we leave it. If someone wants to do more testing and come back with that info we can revist.
18:30:41 <dcr226> "Now, did you prefer the kick..or the quiet?"
18:30:43 <nirik> dcr226: flood is > 1 line. ;)
18:30:50 <dcr226> LOL
18:31:05 <nirik> anyhow, anything further on this topic? or shall we move on?
18:31:09 <EvilBob> dcr226: I already randomly kick and BAN people from -unreg...
18:31:15 <dcr226> EvilBob, and how do they like it?
18:31:20 <dcr226> nirik, rock'n'roll
18:31:24 <EvilBob> DILLIGAF?
18:31:25 <EvilBob> ;)
18:31:28 <nirik> #topic ticket #149 Complaint about fenrus02 in your #fedora IRC channel
18:31:28 <EvilBob> LOL
18:31:30 <dcr226> LOL!!
18:31:38 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/149
18:31:48 <nirik> so, I am not sure what provoked this user.
18:31:57 <dcr226> must have been bad: [ XXXXXX] Negative
18:32:01 <nirik> I'd like to propose we ask them for details and revisit next week.
18:32:12 <nirik> yeah, but they didn't mention any specific thing.
18:32:28 <EvilBob> Close it, it's a drive by
18:32:37 <nirik> right before that there was a user that fenrus02 exchanged a few questions with and they he said that he did not have time to help further.
18:32:44 <nirik> I didn't see anything rude or offensive in that.
18:32:44 <EvilBob> an actual waste of our time
18:32:53 <dcr226> +1 close it, asking them to re-open with any form of actual evidence other than "I don't like foo"
18:33:09 <nirik> thats fine too. +1
18:33:21 <N3LRX> +1 for close
18:33:23 <dcr226> also, I think we should publicly flog fenrus02
18:33:27 <dcr226> because...well its fun
18:33:29 <EvilBob> The user that filed joined 1/2 way through someone getting help... made a snap judgment...
18:33:32 <nirik> :)
18:33:34 <N3LRX> lol
18:33:38 <EvilBob> +1 close it
18:34:13 <nirik> I also don't get the "I don't like foo, therefore your entire project and community is horrible and I will tell everyone to avoid it" for one foo? really?
18:34:21 <nirik> but then people do that all the time sadly.
18:34:40 <nirik> "I installed fedora, but I didn't like the default wallpaper, so I switched to slackware"
18:35:07 <dcr226> I do that with pubs
18:35:10 <dcr226> (wallpaper)
18:35:22 <nirik> ha.
18:35:28 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
18:35:35 <nirik> any items for open floor? comments? suggestions?
18:35:55 <nirik> or shall we just have dcr226 buy us all a drink at his pub now? ;)
18:35:58 <EvilBob> ELECTIONS!
18:36:07 <bitlord> O_o
18:36:17 * dcr226 gets his hand in his pockets
18:36:19 <EvilBob> rbergeron: Get well soon!
18:36:32 <nirik> yeah, elections are coming up. Please do everyone vote!
18:36:34 <dcr226> oh wait...the wallpaper is crap in here, lets burn it to the ground and move to the next pub!
18:36:49 <EvilBob> Promote the crap out of the elections
18:36:51 <nirik> meeting from a pub? dcr226++
18:36:57 <dcr226> lol
18:37:11 <EvilBob> also FLOCK
18:37:24 <dcr226> ...but use protection
18:37:29 <dcr226> oh wait
18:37:34 <EvilBob> That also
18:37:37 <EvilBob> and...
18:37:38 <nirik> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections
18:37:39 <EvilBob> Remember people early detection of breast cancer is the closest thing we have to a cure. Guys, remind your Girl to check, Girls... check the girls!
18:37:49 <nirik> http://flocktofedora.org/
18:38:15 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone.
18:38:24 <nirik> oh, would someone like to go close tickets?
18:38:29 <nirik> otherwise I could do it later...
18:38:34 <EvilBob> Oh, any hickups with moving fpaste to <whateverthelongURLisatFedoraProject>?
18:38:46 <bitlord> anyone can close them?
18:38:58 <dcr226> fpaste.org is running sticky-notes now, I guess there will be a patch to put it back soon
18:39:12 <nirik> EvilBob: not that I have seen. Please do report them if you see any tho
18:39:22 <nirik> bitlord: yep. ;)
18:39:25 <nirik> dcr226: ?
18:39:30 <EvilBob> Just remembered that that happened this past week
18:39:32 <nirik> fpaste is pointed to paste.fedoraproject.org
18:39:42 <nirik> it's the same one. :) just different name
18:39:42 <dcr226> nirik, fpaste.org is running sticky notes...oh...right
18:39:52 * dcr226 didn't see the 301
18:39:58 <dcr226> carry on! :)
18:40:23 <bitlord> nirik, hm, interesting, any special procedure?
18:40:36 <nirik> There's been one spammer so far, but I quashed them pretty quick.
18:40:58 <nirik> bitlord: not really. Just add a comment "we discussed this in the 2013-05-16 meeting, thanks for your feedback"
18:40:59 <EvilBob> nirik: I'll take the tickets tonight if you don't do it
18:41:07 <nirik> ok, cool.
18:41:09 <dcr226> fpaste spammer? huh, I thought it had spam protection
18:41:21 <dcr226> but yeah, being a spam ninja is fun also
18:41:22 <EvilBob> I'm going to the park and library now...
18:41:29 <nirik> it does, this was link spam junk that got thru. it's blocked now. ;)
18:41:34 <dcr226> ah
18:41:35 <nirik> anyhow, thanks for coming everyone.
18:41:38 <nirik> #endmeeting