18:00:22 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2013-06-13)
18:00:22 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jun 13 18:00:22 2013 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:22 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:22 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
18:00:22 <nirik> #topic init process
18:00:22 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
18:00:39 * EvilBob 
18:00:41 * N3LRX 
18:00:46 * Southern_Gentlem 
18:01:01 * j_dulaney waves
18:01:07 <nirik> morning everyone.
18:01:16 <DiscordianUK> Howdy
18:01:17 <Southern_Gentlem> afternoon
18:01:30 <nirik> This will likely be a short meeting, but we haven't met in a while so...
18:01:32 <nirik> #topic Week in review
18:01:45 <nirik> Anything anyone would like to note from the previous week?
18:01:50 <nirik> new bugs? new trends?
18:02:19 <DiscordianUK> we now support beta f19
18:02:20 <EvilBob> The wholesale flushing of the ban list when a new release goes beta sucks
18:02:32 <DiscordianUK> It's very stable ish
18:02:49 <EvilBob> I feel we should reconsider this policy
18:02:53 <nirik> I expect we will start seeing more people jump on f19
18:03:27 <DiscordianUK> Indeed nirik
18:03:36 <j_dulaney> !
18:03:36 <nirik> EvilBob: we could. I think it's nice to give people more chances, but I agree that some people are beyond hope.
18:03:53 <nirik> j_dulaney: just chime right in. :)
18:04:15 <EvilBob> nirik: For "most" I would agree, but there are some that are beyond hope
18:04:20 * j_dulaney noted something this last Tuesday that was disturbing in #fedora-social
18:04:32 <nirik> j_dulaney: could we wait for that for open floor?
18:04:34 <j_dulaney> Relevant log:
18:04:39 <j_dulaney> nirik:  Roger
18:04:46 <j_dulaney> EOF for now
18:04:49 <Southern_Gentlem> motions that the ones beyound hope and voted on in a meeting one week before the ban clear
18:04:55 <nirik> EvilBob: so, perhaps we should look at a seperate perm ban for those hopeless cases...
18:05:35 <EvilBob> j_dulaney: also before pasting a log we normally remove nicks to prevent tainting someone's reputation
18:05:41 <DiscordianUK> I think we should consider that yes
18:05:52 <EvilBob> nirik: I like Southern_Gentlem's suggestion
18:06:02 <DiscordianUK> +1 too
18:06:22 <nirik> so, a week before clear someone (?) generates a list and we vote on not clearing those people?
18:06:26 <Southern_Gentlem> one meeting right before the clearing of the ban we go through the ban list and vote on the beyound hope
18:06:32 * nirik isn't sure he's against it, just wants to understand the process first
18:07:00 <EvilBob> Southern_Gentlem: +1
18:07:01 <nirik> sure, I'm ok with that.
18:07:14 <N3LRX> Southern_Gentlem, +1
18:07:18 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik,  so one week before beta i going to be released we at this meeting go through the ban list and decide not to clear or clear
18:07:36 <EvilBob> Or in a ticket
18:07:53 <nirik> Southern_Gentlem: sure, but for simplicty sake, I think we should just say "clear unless..." and people can note those that they feel are hopeless.
18:08:09 <Southern_Gentlem> should be a ticket for this every release cycle
18:08:16 <EvilBob> ticket is better than a meeting IMO, better record keeping and better coverage for those that can't make the meeting
18:08:31 <DiscordianUK> nirik +1
18:08:49 <Southern_Gentlem> that way whomever clears the list will know who and who not to clear
18:08:51 <nirik> sure, ticket is fine, I just don't want to have a long list of mostly ones we don't care if we clear.
18:08:57 <EvilBob> "Hey beta is coming, take a look at the ban list. Is there any bans that should stay?"
18:09:00 <DiscordianUK> someone must indicate that we must vote
18:09:11 <nirik> I think the hopeless ones are much fewer than the entire list, and it's probibly pretty clear who.
18:09:24 <DiscordianUK> Quite
18:09:36 <EvilBob> Yeah and I don't think we should "publish" those that we are going to clear anyhow.
18:10:09 <Southern_Gentlem> agreed
18:10:11 <nirik> right.
18:10:16 <DiscordianUK> Well yes
18:10:20 <EvilBob> If we ask our membership for those that think should stay it would be a shorter list and better overall.
18:10:25 <nirik> +1
18:10:38 <N3LRX> EvilBob, +1
18:10:42 <DiscordianUK> +1
18:11:09 <nirik> #agreed 1 week before beta we will consider some banned users who should not be cleared due to multiple repeated cycles of issues.
18:11:17 <nirik> anything else on week in review or on this?
18:11:43 <DiscordianUK> I've nothing more
18:11:45 <Southern_Gentlem> nope but i do have some feedback from SELF
18:12:04 <nirik> ok, save for open floor? or you want to do it now?
18:12:12 <Southern_Gentlem> open floor
18:12:20 <nirik> ok.
18:12:22 <nirik> #topic ticket #147 Feedback should be much easier to give
18:12:30 <nirik> This is still open and hasn't had much progress...
18:12:48 <nirik> I guess I just wanted to poke it and see if there's any actions ? or if anyone wants to comment further on ticket.
18:12:49 <Southern_Gentlem> i dont see how it is going to be any easier to be truthful
18:13:24 <Southern_Gentlem> i can see there argument about wanting it to be without registration but i dont see that happening either
18:13:28 <DiscordianUK> We require people to register else it'd just be a spam fest
18:14:26 <nirik> I'm open to changes to the trac page...
18:14:32 <nirik> or other things we can do like that...
18:14:46 <nirik> anyhow, I guess I'll comment more and try and get some concrete set of actions from it.
18:15:18 <nirik> anything more on this?
18:15:40 <N3LRX> how mach spam can we expect if the gates are opened?
18:15:50 <nirik> N3LRX: anon trac tickets?
18:15:52 <nirik> vast amounts.
18:15:59 <N3LRX> ok
18:16:08 <EvilBob> I don't care for "Anonymous Coward" tickets
18:16:16 <nirik> I know for sure, as we found a project that had it open like that when we were migrating hosted.
18:16:26 <nirik> there were 10's of thousands of spam tickets.
18:16:38 <nirik> spammers will use it.
18:16:46 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
18:16:52 <nirik> j_dulaney: you want to go now?
18:16:55 <nirik> then Southern_Gentlem
18:17:05 <j_dulaney> nirik:  Let him go first
18:17:12 <j_dulaney> Mine may go longish
18:17:13 <nirik> ok. ;)
18:17:20 <Southern_Gentlem> i have a feeling its the same issue
18:17:28 <j_dulaney> Nope
18:17:36 <j_dulaney> Mine is post-SELF
18:18:43 <Southern_Gentlem> well at SELF we had someone come up to the table and had a complaint that they had came in the Fedora channel and at the mere mention they were looking to use nvidia drivers were harrassed to the point that they left the channel
18:19:16 <Southern_Gentlem> I asked them did anyone mention using rpmfusion drivers or anything like that ?
18:19:35 <nirik> did they have any nick or approx time so folks could look at logs?
18:19:37 <Southern_Gentlem> nope nothing more than you should use the Open source drivers
18:19:40 <EvilBob> Do you have logs?
18:19:53 <Southern_Gentlem> of course not and no nicks either
18:20:00 <nirik> :(
18:20:20 <EvilBob> No nicks, no date, no time... sadly no problem...
18:20:31 <Southern_Gentlem> i explained to them if it ever happened again please do an @ops and look for me nirik
18:20:32 <DiscordianUK> alas I'd suggest rpmfusion
18:20:35 <nirik> I think it's perfectly valid to avise people to avoid non free drivers... but if they want to, you should point them to docs, etc...
18:20:51 <nirik> and at no time should anyone be hostile about it. ;(
18:21:08 * EvilBob has been staying away from all the closed crap drivers
18:21:18 <Southern_Gentlem> i just want us to be careful to not to jump people just because they mention propeiritary drivers
18:21:21 <EvilBob> nirik: "hostile"
18:21:52 <nirik> yeah. Not sure there's much we can do without more info... but I guess be aware about it.
18:21:52 <EvilBob> nirik: this "hostile" could have been one user discouraging their use and no one else around.
18:22:01 <nirik> EvilBob: indeed it could have been.
18:22:27 <EvilBob> Southern_Gentlem: Plenty of people use the CSC Drivers because that is what they have always done
18:22:28 <nirik> "don't use the binary only drivers!" "stop stop, you're opressing me"
18:22:46 <EvilBob> Southern_Gentlem: Ignoring the improvements in the free drivers
18:23:36 <EvilBob> So many people jump to "non-free" with out even trying the open and free solutions out of habit.
18:23:40 <EvilBob> errr
18:23:42 <EvilBob> without
18:24:25 * nirik nods.
18:24:32 <nirik> ok, anything else on this?
18:25:21 <EvilBob> NEXT!
18:25:27 <j_dulaney> I guess that's me
18:25:36 <j_dulaney> http://fpaste.org/18501/
18:25:52 <EvilBob> Thanks for coming everyone
18:25:52 <j_dulaney> That's the logs for what happened over in fedora-social Tuesday evening
18:26:09 * j_dulaney notes that one of our female members was offended
18:27:06 <Southern_Gentlem> j_dulaney, file a real ticket with the real logs so we can deal with this
18:27:28 * j_dulaney was just told above to remove nicks
18:27:29 <Southern_Gentlem> i suspect i already know who it is
18:27:41 <EvilBob> Yeah, I made a joke. I had no idea that tatica would get bent over it
18:27:58 <nirik> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Social_Channel_FAQ notes:
18:28:10 <nirik> "Note that sometimes discussion in the channel will contain strong language and ribald jokes"
18:29:16 <EvilBob> j_dulaney: Sadly there is some added history here
18:29:28 <EvilBob> j_dulaney: a LOT of added history
18:29:57 <nirik> it reads like misunderstandings to me... joke that wasn't taken as a joke, etc.
18:30:08 <EvilBob> j_dulaney: For the longest time I have been able to joke and have fun with the other party and she would give it right back
18:31:23 <EvilBob> j_dulaney: recently the "Oppressed women in India" poster contest has made the other party a bit testy toward me when I have asked questions about it because I was curious.
18:31:25 * j_dulaney just worries about pissing people off too much for no real reason
18:31:39 <Southern_Gentlem> EvilBob,  i have noticed she has been different since her bf popped the question i suspect its stress over the wedding
18:32:26 <nirik> lets not speculate...
18:32:38 <EvilBob> j_dulaney: If that "contest" and my trying to understand her problems with it has destroyed the friendship I have had with this person... Oh well.
18:32:48 <nirik> I don't think there's anything we can/should do here... aside from asking folks to try and communicate better and be more understanding.
18:32:52 <EvilBob> j_dulaney: It's not on me
18:33:05 <j_dulaney> nirik:  That's all I ask
18:33:46 <nirik> Anything else on this? or shall we call it a meeting?
18:33:48 <N3LRX> I'll agree to the misunderstanding. Perhaps she was just having a bad day and took the joke to hard. It happens to all of us.
18:34:05 <EvilBob> N3LRX: It's more than that
18:34:18 <Southern_Gentlem> shoot and put it out of its misery
18:34:41 <EvilBob> N3LRX: I can post logs from the other day about this "poster contest" where she was down right rude to me because I was trying to clear something up
18:34:55 * mdomsch interrupts
18:34:56 <mdomsch> Fedora Town Hall at 1900UTC (3pm US-Eastern) with the Board candidates. Visit https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections#IRC_Town_Halls for information on how to participate and pose questions to the candidates.
18:35:15 <EvilBob> N3LRX: This was BEFORE my poorly received joke
18:35:15 <nirik> thanks for the reminder mdomsch. ;)
18:35:28 <nirik> anyhow, will close the meeting in about a minute if nothing more.
18:35:37 <j_dulaney> EOF from me
18:35:54 <EvilBob> N3LRX: It took nirik's help to clear up my simple question
18:36:19 <nirik> Thanks for coming everyone.
18:36:23 <nirik> #endmeeting