18:00:00 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2013-08-22)
18:00:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Aug 22 18:00:00 2013 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:00 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:01 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
18:00:01 <nirik> #topic init process
18:00:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
18:00:07 <nirik> morning everyone
18:00:13 * EvilBob 
18:00:17 <DiscordianUK> Hello
18:00:51 * randomuser made it somehow
18:01:07 * nirik will wait a minute for more folks, then start in
18:01:17 <EvilBob> randomuser: You didn't use the teleporter again did you...
18:01:29 <EvilBob> ;)
18:01:55 <nirik> #topic Week(s) in review
18:01:59 <randomuser> if I had a teleporter, I'd be a much happier person
18:02:10 <nirik> anyone have trends or common issues we are seeing more of lately?
18:02:51 <nirik> I've not really noticed any new trends off hand.
18:03:00 <DiscordianUK> Nor me
18:03:46 <EvilBob> I've not been that active the past week or so.
18:03:49 <nirik> ok, shall we move on to tickets then?
18:04:02 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah, I've been pretty busy too... but try and keep an eye out when I can anyhow
18:04:20 <nirik> #topic ticket #155 OP complaint - EvilBob
18:04:23 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/155
18:04:56 <DiscordianUK> I believe EvilBob did the right thing
18:04:58 <nirik> so, nothing to do here. I don't understand why someone would get so upset about being warned.
18:05:20 <DiscordianUK> I've also had to admonish folks about -away recently
18:05:21 <nirik> no reply from them in ticket.
18:05:38 <nirik> proposal: close -> wontfix
18:05:43 <DiscordianUK> jnix is of course a resident in #rhel
18:05:43 <dcr226> user's major problem surrounds the incorrect assumption that nick-changes aren't present in the FAQ. They are. No response from OP, close the ticket
18:05:47 <DiscordianUK> +1
18:06:02 <dcr226> DiscordianUK, not relevant
18:06:05 <EvilBob> Just for the record...
18:06:35 <dcr226> nirik, +1
18:06:37 <EvilBob> The ticket was invalid from the start, I am not now nor have I ever been a channel op in #fedora
18:06:48 <nirik> EvilBob: also true.
18:06:53 <nirik> ok, shall we move on then?
18:06:55 <DiscordianUK> Indeed
18:07:08 <randomuser> +1 for self-policing communities, then
18:07:29 <nirik> #topic ticket #156 maltreatment and abuse of power in #fedora-social
18:07:32 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/156
18:08:00 <nirik> so, EvilBob and nix talked, this seems to be all taking offense at something someone said and getting all worked up
18:08:10 <DiscordianUK> I acted to stop someone who was just retreading the same ground repeatedly
18:08:21 <nirik> also some other random people have been jumping on the ticket who were not there or don't realize this was in social
18:08:21 <DiscordianUK> and quieted them
18:08:24 <EvilBob> I discussed this ticket, my part of it anyhow, with nix\(nixfas) and we left the discussion on positive terms
18:09:11 <DiscordianUK> In that case I suggest we close the ticket with no action required
18:09:47 <nirik> right, so my proposal is we ask everyone to try and relax and not take things so seriously, and if offense is taken to appologize when none is offered
18:10:05 <DiscordianUK> I'll go with that +1
18:11:18 <nirik> counter proposals? more discussion?
18:12:07 <EvilBob> I think it's OK to close at this time, if nix and fenrus02 want to get in to it deeper they can do so privately or re-open
18:12:09 <randomuser> I think sometimes a +q is needed to quell a contentious discussion; the person acted on isn't especially more or less to blame
18:12:27 <nirik> right. to reduce the 'heat' of the channel.
18:12:48 <EvilBob> randomuser: and sometimes sadly the person that gets the +q is not greater offender initially
18:13:11 <randomuser> so I'd suggest stating it that way - not taking sides, but making it clear that the goal is only to place a time out on the *topic*
18:13:16 <randomuser> EOF
18:13:19 * nirik nods.
18:13:41 <EvilBob> sometimes I have +q the less aggressive person just because I know that they will not fight more after and the more agressive party has no one to fight with at the time.
18:13:45 <DiscordianUK> That's a good view
18:14:21 <nirik> right. I think people misconstrue the quiets sometimes.
18:14:42 <EvilBob> I always try to explain when possible
18:14:51 <nirik> yep.
18:15:09 <nirik> ok, further discussion on this one, or move on?
18:15:36 <EvilBob> I think it's OK to close at this time, if nix and fenrus02 want to get in to it deeper they can do so privately or re-open
18:15:45 <nirik> yeah, thats fine with me.
18:15:58 <EvilBob> and by "private" I don't mean PM
18:16:16 <EvilBob> poor choice of words... "Off the list"
18:16:21 <nirik> right
18:16:29 <EvilBob> DEFAULT TO OPEN!
18:16:32 <nirik> #topic ticket #157 Support for US Embargoed Nations (#fedora FAQ)
18:16:39 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/157
18:16:43 <nirik> fun one. ;)
18:17:11 <nirik> I think replacing our embargoed entry with a more general one on help will make some people happy and also improves things...
18:17:17 <EvilBob> IMO this should stay as stated
18:17:28 <DiscordianUK> I am +1 with nirik's proposal
18:17:39 <jsmith> WORKSFORME
18:17:39 <EvilBob> This section of the FAQ was added for a reason
18:17:58 <nirik> EvilBob: how about this... we replace it with the general one, and mail legal asking them if there's a reason for the specific one that needs to be there. If they say yes, we re-add it?
18:18:11 <randomuser> rewording legalistic copy seems sensitive
18:18:16 <EvilBob> until we check the revision history, mailing list, trac tickets and IRC logs... it should stay.
18:18:16 <nirik> I tried to look at discussion around when it was added, but couldn't find it.
18:18:16 <jsmith> +1 to communicating with legal
18:18:27 <jsmith> (it's a sticky topic)
18:18:29 <nirik> no ticket leaped out, or irc meeting
18:18:55 <EvilBob> there was something that happened that lead to it being suggested.
18:18:57 <nirik> but I know it was discussed. Just can't recall the details.
18:19:10 <nirik> They say memory is the second thing to go... I forget what the first is.
18:19:16 <EvilBob> can we have 2 weeks to look in to the history deeper?
18:19:34 <EvilBob> if we can't find the specifics we can change it.
18:19:46 <DiscordianUK> I'd second two weeks
18:19:48 <dcr226> why does it matter? is there a major issue with nirik's revised copy?
18:19:57 <dcr226> if not..let it fly, and let people calm down
18:20:10 <nirik> dcr226: we are wondering if legal asked us to add that, in which case it might be bad to remove it.
18:20:10 <DiscordianUK> I am happy with nirik's draft
18:20:13 <fenrus02> does nirik's rewording somehow invalidate that you can refuse to assist a user from an embargo'd country?
18:20:14 <EvilBob> dcr226: Without looking for the reason it was added, we don't know
18:20:34 <dcr226> I see no point in antagonizing a situation over the wording of a sentence when very few people care about it
18:20:34 * nirik shrugs. I guess we can wait and try and gather more info
18:20:58 <EvilBob> people being "calm" about embargoes and assumed freedoms is never going to happen
18:21:10 <nirik> I'm also fine with changing it and asking for more info to put it back...
18:21:15 <dcr226> I can't remember why it was added either..just remember it being added
18:21:39 <EvilBob> 2 weeks should be enough time to be diligent in our actions
18:21:42 <randomuser> if one wanted to gloss over the issue, embargo status could be listed as one of many reasons that someone might not get helped; others might include "nobody available knows the answer"
18:22:20 <DiscordianUK> Or in the case of one recent case : because I don't use that
18:22:23 <nirik> randomuser: I started to list some things in my last draft, but I think that gets negative soon... or could...
18:22:49 <randomuser> yeah, it would be easy to get too wordy there. I like your draft nirik, fwiw
18:23:14 <nirik> also, when you add lists of things people assume it's just them... and there's more reasons than I can think of to stop helping someone. ;)
18:23:44 <randomuser> true, i withdraw the comment :)
18:24:07 <EvilBob> I may or may not agree with the embargo, the point is that we IMO have an obligation to protect Red Hat from unneeded scrutiny in exchange for their generous ownership of Fedora™
18:25:10 <DiscordianUK> I'm still +1 with nirik's proposal
18:25:31 <EvilBob> On the other hand, perhaps the DOD and DOJ should be made aware that Red Hat does little to prevent "munitions" that they produce from getting in to the hands of the "enemy"
18:25:49 <dcr226> wow
18:25:54 <nirik> offtopic.
18:25:59 <EvilBob> That could potentially solve all the problems
18:26:22 <nirik> nope, I don't see how it ever could
18:26:40 <dcr226> IIRC, it was never demanded of the sig by Red Hat to ever include that line in the FAQ
18:26:42 <randomuser> we shouldn't get into policy debates at the project level or the international level; the question is one of presentation in the FAQ
18:26:59 <dcr226> that being said, a lot of hassle would be saved by simply deleting that line, and moving on with our lives
18:27:02 <fenrus02> leave it to fpl and or legal
18:27:06 <dcr226> ^^
18:27:35 <DiscordianUK> ask Counsel if we can't agree here
18:27:48 <EvilBob> randomuser: we can't bury our heads in the sand and ignore the Facts
18:27:51 <nirik> ok, how about:
18:28:07 <EvilBob> 2 weeks is all I asked for to make sure we are not making a mistake
18:28:14 <nirik> add new general entry now, leave embargoed one for a week, ping legal, if they don't care about us having it, remove it then.
18:28:31 <randomuser> nirik, +1
18:28:36 <fenrus02> nirik, wfm.  may want fpl's buy-in as well though
18:28:47 <fenrus02> nirik, because they are the ones going to be pinged about it in case of questions
18:28:47 <nirik> EvilBob: I don't look forward to 2 weeks of people piling on to the ticket. ;)
18:28:53 <DiscordianUK> Okay I'll support nirik's revised proposal
18:29:04 <dcr226> DiscordianUK, I think we can just assume you're with nirik
18:29:07 <dcr226> :)
18:29:14 <dcr226> fenrus02, is that still rbergeron ?
18:29:21 <EvilBob> nirik: close the ticket, stating it will be removed in 2 weeks pending further investigation
18:29:31 <nirik> EvilBob: compromise on 1 week?
18:29:37 <fenrus02> dcr226, sure!  (not kept track of politics much, but i think it has not changed)
18:29:39 <dcr226> (relatively rhetorical, but a reasonable excuse to nick-highlight) :)
18:30:08 <EvilBob> nirik: I was hoping for some time AFTER the "Labor Day weekend" to make sure I have time and resources to check it out.
18:30:23 * nirik looks at calendar, is that coming up?
18:30:34 <EvilBob> nirik: I don't have access to all my logs until after the 2nd of Sept
18:31:02 <nirik> well, I would think we would get a reply in a week, if only a 'please stand by while we consider it'
18:31:03 <EvilBob> Sept 5th is "2 weeks"
18:31:26 <DiscordianUK> I'm against the irredentist (never help anyone from an embargoed country) mentality dcr226
18:31:56 <dcr226> I dont care what you are for, or against in honesty
18:32:27 * nirik sighs. I'd prefer to just deal with this, 2 weeks seems too long to me.
18:32:32 <dcr226> just noting that you were +1 to everything nirik uttered...and I was getting the idea
18:32:33 <dcr226> :)
18:32:55 * nirik comes up with some crazy proposal for DiscordianUK to agree with
18:32:59 <EvilBob> dcr226: He likes beans
18:33:02 <dcr226> nirik, ginger people
18:33:09 <dcr226> LOL
18:33:20 * nirik is one. ;)
18:33:34 <dcr226> a bean?
18:33:39 <dcr226> :)
18:33:56 <DiscordianUK> The longer the ticket stays open the more crud it will accumulate
18:33:58 <dcr226> isn't "delete the entry" a useful compromise?
18:34:13 <dcr226> on the grounds that the sig was never forced to actually add it in the first place?
18:34:20 <nirik> dcr226: well, we don't know, we can't recall.
18:34:36 <dcr226> Heh
18:34:53 <EvilBob> anyhow, I don't even the time and resources needed in 1 week to check this out, I would need 2 weeks. I really don't think that is asking too much even if every embargoed person comments on the ticket.
18:34:57 <nirik> if there is a reason for it to be there, I would think legal could tell us in 1 week.
18:35:19 <nirik> EvilBob: it's more legal looking into it, no? it doesn't need to be on you
18:35:30 <EvilBob> anyhow, I don't HAVE the time and resources needed in 1 week to check this out, I would need 2 weeks. I really don't think that is asking too much even if every embargoed person comments on the ticket.
18:35:50 <EvilBob> nirik: I may not be something that we need to bother them with
18:35:50 <nirik> you shouldn't need to.
18:36:08 <nirik> I don't think it's a big problem to send an email.
18:36:51 * nirik would be happy to send it off. wait a week and see.
18:37:02 <dcr226> here's a suggestion:
18:37:18 <randomuser> proposal: give EvilBob another week if legal does not reply authoritatively
18:37:43 <nirik> randomuser: sure, you mean if they don't reply in a week or don't say yes or no?
18:38:00 <dcr226> Close the ticket with "None of us are lawyers, but its sad that you guys are offended by the wording. We're going to contact legal straight away and ask for their help implementing a more comforably worded entry for you. Will have a reply ASAP and act accordingly"
18:38:15 <randomuser> i mean, if they don't reply - or do reply but not with directly actionable information
18:38:32 * EvilBob hates involving lawyers in anything
18:38:39 <nirik> dcr226: fine with me.
18:39:08 <EvilBob> ESPECIALLY when they have already been involved with it getting placed there originally
18:39:22 <nirik> randomuser: thats also fine with me.
18:39:22 <dcr226> EvilBob, I dont mind..if I'm not paying
18:39:50 <dcr226> :)
18:39:50 <nirik> so: close per dcr226's suggestion, mail legal, wait a week, if no reply add a week for EvilBob to dig more.
18:40:14 <EvilBob> No consensus... push it a week and then give me a week to look deeper in to it.
18:40:14 <DiscordianUK> Reluctantly +1
18:40:21 <EvilBob> ;)
18:40:54 <dcr226> I think there needs to be a "We're dealing with this, but its gonna take a little while" approach to the ticket to stop it getting out of hand
18:41:02 <nirik> dcr226: yes, I think thats a great idea.
18:41:13 <jsmith> dcr226: I agree
18:41:41 <DiscordianUK> okay yes
18:41:45 <jsmith> Let's send a provisional response saying "We're looking into this... please be patient while we get you a final answer"
18:41:57 <jsmith> while we dig a bit deeper, etc.
18:42:26 <nirik> right, and I'm fine with closing it, since there's no more action to take place in the ticket.
18:42:34 <dcr226> I'd be seriously tempted to close it from further comments, to stop it spiralling
18:42:46 <EvilBob> as I stated 15 minutes ago "<EvilBob> nirik: close the ticket, stating it will be removed in 2 weeks pending further investigation"
18:43:01 <nirik> right, is everyone ok with that plan then?
18:43:13 <dcr226> rock and roll! (+1)
18:43:38 <EvilBob> If I can't find it in my logs and stuff then... we have no reason to keep it.
18:43:48 <nirik> cool.
18:43:56 <nirik> any further discussion on this? or move on?
18:44:05 <EvilBob> move it
18:44:40 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
18:44:48 <nirik> dcr226: you had some old tickets for us to look at closing?
18:44:58 <dcr226> oops, yeah..moment
18:45:10 <dcr226> ok, this one first: https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/147
18:45:27 <dcr226> " This was discussed at the 2013-05-16 meeting, calling for more discussion. "
18:45:35 <nirik> yeah, and nothing happened.
18:45:40 <dcr226> op doesn't seem to much care since (3 months ago), can we just kill it?
18:45:53 <DiscordianUK> Close it
18:45:54 <nirik> I'm fine with closing it with a note asking them to reopen if they have specific changes
18:45:54 <EvilBob> kill 'em all!
18:46:10 <dcr226> yeah, ideal
18:46:28 <dcr226> next one?
18:46:34 <nirik> next
18:46:36 <dcr226> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/107
18:46:55 <dcr226> I started this, didn't really work how I originally intended..don't think it needs to be alive anymore
18:47:14 <nirik> yeah, it was mostly done.
18:47:21 <EvilBob> dcr226: that one is so old it's maybe time to create a new one to cut the dead weight...
18:47:23 <EvilBob> ;)
18:47:25 <nirik> I think one or two were not cleaned up, but overall it's finished.
18:47:26 <randomuser> wait, there's a SIG membership list for validity of +1's here ? :P
18:47:37 <nirik> randomuser: in theory yeah
18:47:38 <dcr226> EvilBob, Hah
18:48:05 <dcr226> and the last one was https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/125
18:48:36 <dcr226> does anyone know if FranciscoD did anything with the wiki? or shall we just leave my comment in the wind for another week?
18:48:38 <nirik> That got done, but needs redone. ;)
18:48:45 <nirik> I'd say ping the ticket and ask him to update it?
18:48:50 <nirik> yeah
18:49:09 <dcr226> ok..so we can just leave that until he wakes..it was very recently that I made a change
18:49:22 <nirik> yeah, he's been around so hopefully he will chime in.
18:49:27 <nirik> any other items for open floor?
18:50:07 <dcr226> I'm spent
18:50:30 <nirik> heh.
18:50:40 <nirik> ok, would anyone like to close tickets this week?
18:50:47 <nirik> if not I can do it, but might not be for a bit.
18:51:06 <dcr226> I can do it in a sec
18:51:13 <nirik> dcr226: that would be lovely. thank you.
18:51:24 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone!
18:51:27 <nirik> #endmeeting