18:00:00 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2013-10-17)
18:00:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Oct 17 18:00:00 2013 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:00 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:01 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
18:00:01 <nirik> #topic init process
18:00:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
18:00:29 <nirik> anyone around for a irc support sig meeting?
18:00:41 * thomasj is here
18:02:32 <thomasj> not much folks around
18:02:58 <nirik> yeah, seems not.
18:03:19 * EvilBob 
18:04:07 * nirik will wait a few more for folks
18:06:13 <nirik> ok, I guess we can go forward and if not enough input on tickets punt them a week. ;)
18:06:24 <nirik> #topic Week in review
18:06:35 <nirik> any items from the previous week? new common bugs, etc?
18:06:42 <nirik> it's been pretty quiet this week, IMHO
18:06:58 <EvilBob> fedbot status?
18:07:29 <nirik> working on it. not sure whats going on. ;(
18:07:32 <EvilBob> K
18:07:39 <thomasj> i was reading up on fedora.next all week, didn't pay much attention to the channel
18:07:52 <nirik> it's getting timeouts connecting. odd.
18:09:12 <nirik> ok, moving on to tickets then... or should we punt them to next week with more people around?
18:09:45 <EvilBob> There is a kudos ticket we can clear
18:09:58 <nirik> sure.
18:10:03 <nirik> #topic ticket #161 Kudos
18:10:23 <EvilBob> The ticket about "Someone told me not to file a bug" should be just sh!t canned
18:10:23 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/161
18:10:41 <nirik> good work to swa_work there. ;)
18:12:06 <nirik> #topic ticket #162 Fedora supporter(?) decides I shall not file a Bug
18:12:18 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/162
18:12:25 <nirik> so, two things on this one...
18:12:32 * thomasj reading
18:12:51 <nirik> 1. I don't understand how they think someone saying something on irc has any effect on if they can file a bug or not.
18:13:13 <nirik> 2. I think fenris02 needs to learn to disengage better from people who he doesn't wish to continue helping.
18:13:30 <thomasj> +1
18:13:47 * nirik guesses fenris02 isn't around right now.
18:14:05 <EvilBob> It's meeting time, why would he be?
18:14:10 <EvilBob> ;)
18:14:15 <EvilBob> </sarcasm>
18:14:33 * Southern_Gentlem 
18:15:08 <nirik> pesky work getting in the way of irc. ;)
18:15:17 <EvilBob> I asked the user for clarification of what this ticket is actually about, and I still don't know.
18:15:24 <nirik> anyhow, I am happy noting the above on the ticket and closing it... or we could keep it open for more input.
18:16:42 <thomasj> it appears it's about the supporter being arrogant.
18:16:47 <nirik> I guess they felt they were being told what to do...
18:17:07 <nirik> but as the join message for the channel indicates, everyones opinions are their own, etc
18:17:30 <thomasj> that's true, even i doubt anyone reading the message :)
18:18:03 <nirik> sadly reading and comprehending is a lost art.
18:18:20 <thomasj> yeah
18:19:38 <nirik> anyhow, shall we note and close? or keep open?
18:19:51 <Southern_Gentlem> close
18:19:54 <thomasj> hmm..
18:20:22 <EvilBob> I say close
18:20:46 <thomasj> this isn't the first ticket about someone being arrogant.. maybe we can tell the reporter that this will be adressed somehow.
18:21:11 <thomasj> if it will be talked about it
18:21:29 <nirik> well, I'd like to ask fenris02 about being better about disengaging with people before they get mad...
18:21:31 <EvilBob> Sure, go ahead thomasj
18:21:35 <nirik> not sure if that counts?
18:22:00 <thomasj> i think that would count, sure
18:22:33 <Southern_Gentlem> +1 close with that comment
18:22:46 <EvilBob> Back in the day... the person would have been just kicked and then the helper would not have to worry about disengaging
18:23:19 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik,  but from the logs i think the person would get mad either way
18:23:39 <nirik> yeah, there's a history I fear...
18:23:43 <EvilBob> Now with the "kinder more gentle #fedora" we have to let them hang around blathering on and on for hours inflaming the channel and making harder on the helpers
18:24:12 <EvilBob> making *it* harder
18:24:39 <thomasj> i thought we have tools like silent if they're disrupting the channel
18:24:53 <EvilBob> They  don't like the answer or suggestion given so they hang on and on
18:25:01 <thomasj> kicking them is also possible
18:25:27 <thomasj> i think this is more about that people want to feel that they get understood
18:25:46 <thomasj> sometimes i have to ask dumb questions because i cant explain it any better
18:26:05 <thomasj> having them someone being arrogant will make me feel even more dumb
18:26:08 <thomasj> then*
18:26:33 <thomasj> speaking of myself here, so i guess that might count for others in #fedora either
18:26:37 <nirik> sure, but some people are so quick to take offense that it's really hard.
18:26:52 <EvilBob> So... your opinion is that if you ask a dumb question and then act dumb and feel dumb it's someone else's fault?
18:26:55 <thomasj> that's the nature of humans, yes, we're all different :)
18:27:11 <Southern_Gentlem> I am sorry this one is just close, he asked if he should file a bug and was told no everything is working as it is suppose to which is the truth
18:27:14 <nirik> anyhow, should we move on to the last ticket? or save it?
18:27:17 <thomasj> acting dumb wasn't part of what i said
18:27:27 <Southern_Gentlem> move on
18:27:40 <thomasj> i was just trying to show the other side
18:27:43 <thomasj> yes, move on
18:27:53 <EvilBob> thomasj: I was just trying to cover as many of the variables of dumb I could
18:28:02 <thomasj> ok
18:28:20 <nirik> #topic ticket #163 Offensive behavior - fenris02
18:28:24 <Southern_Gentlem> bob leave cocohead out of this
18:28:31 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/163
18:28:53 * EvilBob has not looked at this ticket...
18:29:19 <nirik> so, I think this is just similar...
18:29:46 <nirik> disengaging politely would hopefully avoid them getting mad... but of course people are quick to take offense.
18:31:09 <nirik> so, I would say the same thing... let them know we are going to try and talk with fenris02 about that, etc.
18:31:19 <thomasj> this ticket is the perfect example of being arrogant, i knew that one already
18:31:36 <thomasj> and i do like fenris
18:31:43 <nirik> is there some way we could quantify 'arrogant' and how not to be it?
18:31:48 <EvilBob> "people are quick to take offense" because we give them the power to be offended and in turn offensive on their own
18:31:54 <nirik> it's kinda subjective
18:32:05 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik, and of course fenris should file a counter ticket for the user being offensive because he would not answer the quesitons
18:32:13 <Southern_Gentlem> close this
18:32:53 <EvilBob> Southern_Gentlem: +1
18:33:06 <thomasj> it is kinda subjective, true
18:33:17 <Southern_Gentlem> the only thing here is that the channel still supports f18
18:33:52 <nirik> yeah, f18 should still get support from anyone wishing to help do so
18:34:02 <Southern_Gentlem> and fenris was wanting a valid reason why the user was trying f18 and the user got upset because he found out his assuptions were wrong
18:34:37 <Southern_Gentlem> close this witch hunt
18:34:44 <EvilBob> Southern_Gentlem: +1
18:35:06 <thomasj> why does he have to give a valid reason, besides it's supported and his decision?
18:35:44 <nirik> he doesn't IMHO.
18:35:50 <thomasj> same IMHO
18:36:27 <Southern_Gentlem> and no one in the channel was willing to help the user is not ours or fenris issue
18:36:53 <nirik> sure, but if he backed away more politely/quicker, things would end better for everyone
18:37:21 <EvilBob> quicker?
18:37:32 <EvilBob> the whole exchange was less than 15 minutes
18:38:02 <EvilBob> He was just trying to find out details, part of basic troubleshooting
18:38:09 <thomasj> exchange nails it almost
18:38:35 <EvilBob> "Hey I see this in F18" "Have you seen if in F19, it might have been fixed?"
18:38:36 <nirik> well, at the point where they said they wanted 18...
18:38:49 <nirik> I don't want to assist with an f18 install, good luck
18:39:08 <Southern_Gentlem> hindsight is 20/20
18:39:39 <Southern_Gentlem> close it
18:39:53 <EvilBob> I probably would have run questions about the f18 choice much the same way, and so would you.
18:40:23 <nirik> well, it would be clear after a few lines that they didn't want to explain... so I would likely have shrugged at that point.
18:40:29 <nirik> but yeah, hard to say without being there. ;)
18:40:36 <Southern_Gentlem> the only thing i would have done different is pointed at the f19 updated lives and told them to try those
18:41:15 <fenris02> did exactly that.
18:41:22 <nirik> hey fenris02
18:41:24 <thomasj> i think the direction here is pretty clear: close it; not our problem; in the good old days he would've been kicked; witch hunt.. kinda sad
18:41:27 <EvilBob> 20:40 < fenris02> any reason you decided not to use f19 or the updated media found in the /topic here? you do realize f18 goes end of life shortly right?
18:41:46 <thomasj> if someone would tell me, i'm doing something wrong, i would try to learn from it
18:42:00 <Southern_Gentlem> so we are back to close it
18:42:21 <EvilBob> Southern_Gentlem: +1
18:42:23 <fenris02> well, +b/+q for legit questions is a rather slippery slope.  better to just stop and let someone else help
18:42:24 <nirik> sure.
18:42:32 <thomasj> doing something wrong/the wrong way
18:42:48 <fenris02> f18-updated would have worked too, and left the user with f18
18:43:01 * nirik nods.
18:43:10 <Southern_Gentlem> fenris02,  there are no f18 updated one available
18:43:10 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
18:43:27 <nirik> any items for open floor? questions, comments, ideas, bacon?
18:43:41 <fenris02> Southern_Gentlem, my bad then, i thought the most recent f18-update was still posted.
18:43:58 <Southern_Gentlem> bacon and if you are a ham support JOTA this weekend
18:44:38 <nirik> does someone want to deal with the tickets? or should I at some point?
18:45:00 <Southern_Gentlem> bob close please
18:45:00 <thomasj> not me
18:45:46 <nirik> I can, it's not a big deal.
18:46:16 * nirik will close meeting in a min if nothing else.
18:47:11 <thomasj> thx for hosting
18:48:18 <nirik> thanks for coming everyon
18:48:20 <nirik> e
18:48:23 <nirik> #endmeeting