17:00:00 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2015-03-26)
17:00:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Mar 26 17:00:00 2015 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:00 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:00 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
17:00:00 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
17:00:00 <nirik> #topic init process
17:00:31 <nirik> anyone around for a irc support sig meeting?
17:00:42 <striker> yes
17:01:38 * nirik will wait a few for more folks to show up
17:03:37 * Khaytsus 
17:04:16 <nirik> well, at least it's not just me. ;)
17:04:18 <nirik> #topic Week in review
17:04:22 <Khaytsus> heh
17:04:33 <nirik> so, we have not met in a while... anything anyone would like to point out recently?
17:04:41 <nirik> any common bugs or cases people are hitting?
17:04:43 * Khaytsus points at a spiderweb
17:05:10 <Khaytsus> I haven't noticed any common issues recently
17:06:12 <nirik> yeah, it's seemed pretty regular to me. I've been busy so not as active as I have been in the past...
17:07:05 <Khaytsus> Yeah, me too, silly busy.  I haven't even been peeking in from work like usual
17:07:31 <nirik> anyhow, on to tickets then... which we have one...
17:07:41 <nirik> #topic ticket #174 - Addressing the repeated violation of Fedora's Code of Conduct https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/174
17:07:58 * Southern_Gentlem 
17:09:17 <nirik> striker: you around? so really you want bob to be nicer when disenganging? or do you disagree with my comments? or what should we do here? ;)
17:09:29 <Khaytsus> Surprize surprize
17:09:32 <striker> I understand people have their bad days, but I would like to see the bullying stop.  Things like this have been happening for a while, but it was the cursing that prompted me to open a ticket.
17:09:43 <Khaytsus> And that's all I'll say about this ticket
17:10:03 <striker> It is not only EvilBob that puts out the negativity, but no one has immunity from the code of conduct.
17:10:58 <nirik> sure. So, would "Please try and be more polite and follow the code of conduct" be a outcome here? or are you looking for something else?
17:11:02 <EvilBob> So You scraped your logs took a bunch of things out of context.
17:11:15 <EvilBob> Congrats on that.
17:11:32 <nirik> I agree EvilBob could have been a lot better disenganging with that one user...
17:11:52 <striker> nirik: That would be a good start.  It may be a good idea as well to involve more people in the ops and begin rotating those who have fedbot power.
17:12:00 <Southern_Gentlem> yes i would like to see the full logs of all those issues out ofcontext any statement can be made
17:12:10 <Southern_Gentlem> to be taken as bad
17:12:42 * nirik thinks people need to once again re-read: http://freenode.net/catalysts.shtml
17:13:05 <Southern_Gentlem> striker,  FTR EvilBob  does not have op powers in #fedora in anyway
17:13:30 <striker> Southern_Gentlem: I know this.  But, he still represents the project.
17:13:47 <EvilBob> Southern_Gentlem: And that is a good thing, because if I did there would be a whole new set of rules.
17:14:20 <Southern_Gentlem> striker,  since when has been a member of a IRC channel required membership in FAS
17:14:40 <nirik> EvilBob: can you agree to try and disengage people you don't want to help better moving forward and stop using munged curse words?
17:14:40 <striker> Southern_Gentlem: I think you misunderstand me.
17:15:56 <Southern_Gentlem> Also the joining message says otherwise
17:16:32 <aTypical> Can anyone ask questions here?  I'm not a member of anything.
17:16:45 <Southern_Gentlem> -ChanServ- [#fedora] "Any advice you read here is provided by individual community members. You should use it at your OWN RISK. This advice is owned by each individual, and does NOT represent the views of Freenode, Fedora or Red Hat. This channel may be logged"
17:16:53 <Southern_Gentlem> aTypical, go for it
17:16:55 <nirik> aTypical: sure, but we are discussing a ticket...
17:17:01 <EvilBob> aTypical: It's an open exchange
17:17:04 <nirik> so if it's not related to that, can you wait for open floor?
17:17:04 <aTypical> Does EvilBob actually represent Fedora?
17:17:21 <nirik> does anyone?
17:17:30 <EvilBob> aTypical: I do not represent anything but ME
17:17:31 <nirik> does everyone?
17:17:52 <nirik> if you are in the channel helping people you do reflect on the project as a whole...
17:18:15 <striker> And I would also like to point out a snip of the Code of Conduct: "Members of the Fedora community should be respectful when dealing with other contributors as well as with people outside the Fedora community and with users of Fedora."
17:19:03 <striker> All I want is to see none of the negativity going forward that I have pointed out by those with an @fedoraproject.org e-mail address.
17:19:10 * EvilBob is doing three things at once including a phone call...
17:19:32 <nirik> striker: we all have bad days, but we can all try and do better
17:19:32 <Corey84> +1 striker
17:19:56 <Corey84> i'm guiolty of not being 100% postive  minded myself
17:20:00 <Corey84> sometimes
17:20:44 <EvilBob> Lots of people have FAS accounts and as a result a @fedoraproject.org email alias.
17:21:01 <aTypical> What's an FAS account?
17:21:04 <striker> EvilBob: I would like to see your reply to nirik.
17:21:08 <striker> [13:14] <nirik> EvilBob: can you agree to try and disengage people you don't want to help better moving forward and stop using munged curse words?
17:21:09 <nirik> aTypical: fedora account system
17:21:14 <aTypical> thanks, nirik
17:21:56 <aTypical> Is striker a Red Hat employee?
17:22:15 <EvilBob> striker: If you can some how get them to delete my FAS account, go for it.
17:22:34 <jwb> aTypical, why does striker's employer matter?
17:22:35 <nirik> aTypical: by his hostmask he is...
17:22:44 <EvilBob> Once you get a FAS account you are stuck with that shit forever.
17:22:45 <aTypical> jwb, I'm trying to put things in perspective.
17:22:48 <striker> EvilBob: As I said in the ticket, all I want is to see you help without the negative comments.
17:22:50 <nirik> EvilBob: we can mark it inactive and you can remove your information from it.
17:23:13 <aTypical> jwb, put them in perspective in my own head... nothing else.
17:23:40 <nirik> IMHO fas account has nothing to do with anything here, nor does employer. ;)
17:23:54 * pingou agrees
17:24:13 <aTypical> nirik, agreed
17:25:02 <aTypical> It is possible, though, that a corporate entity might have more need to reduce bad language than a general user.  Not that I disagree with striker at all.
17:25:38 <nirik> well, cursing is just unprofessional in a support venue... along with a number of other behaviors...
17:25:47 <aTypical> It seems to me, though, that if the channel rules say no bad language than that needs to be enforced.
17:26:22 <aTypical> nirik, no argument from me.  EvilBob, you'll just need to verbally thrash people in #fedora-social.  ;-)
17:26:29 <nirik> sure, although often people just forget and a reminder is enough
17:26:48 <nirik> ie, you tell them and they appologise and don't do it anymore...
17:26:49 <EvilBob> aTypical: The sniveling babies will just complain there also.
17:27:08 <nirik> although we did have one user that had to make a client plugin to stop them from doing it.
17:27:31 <aTypical> EvilBob, but that's a non-support channel so let them whine.
17:28:39 <Corey84> we all need  somewhere to vent at times yes/no ? EvilBob  while I agree some folks take it  to extremes but ...
17:29:14 <Corey84> and to be totally honest I've seen MUCH worse in #ubuntu
17:29:50 <EvilBob> If that is what we are doing here is venting then IMO we are just wasting everyone's afternoon and striker owes us all an apology.
17:30:26 <nirik> no. This is just asking you to "agree to try and disengage people you don't want to help better moving forward and stop using munged curse words"
17:30:37 <nirik> if you can try and do that I think we are all good.
17:30:45 <pingou> Corey84: it's worst next door doesn't mean we shouldn't improve :)
17:30:47 <nirik> at least for me
17:31:04 <Corey84> pingou,  WAS NOT impliing that either
17:31:14 <EvilBob> nirik: I will stop using "munged curse words"
17:31:27 <nirik> ok.
17:31:27 <pingou> EvilBob: and non-munged curse words as well? :)
17:31:39 <EvilBob> pingou: I can't make that promise
17:32:02 <pingou> EvilBob: can you promise to try? :)
17:32:05 <Corey84> as someone already said we are all human and have our days but we can ALL do better  myself included
17:33:30 <EvilBob> Just the FACT that striker had to go back 4 months to find even another case where I "munged curse words" ... Waste of time.
17:33:55 <striker> EvilBob: That was to point out that even with other cases, things have not improved.
17:34:00 <EvilBob> [Thursday, December 11, 2014] [11:58:37 AM] <EvilBob?> I've no time for bullsh!t like this... Best of luck to you.
17:34:15 <nirik> well, it was that and also IMHO the disengangement... I know you said to the user you didn't want to help them, and they help pinging you, but you could have walked away
17:35:02 <EvilBob> None of the other "disengagements" that were taken out of context do I feel I I was wrong.
17:35:31 <pingou> no-one is discussing that you were right to disengage
17:35:45 <EvilBob> pingou: but they are
17:35:59 <nirik> we are just saying the correct way to do it...
17:36:13 <nirik> "Sorry, I cannot assist you further, good day" and then stop answering them.
17:36:47 <EvilBob> nirik: That is not always the case
17:36:59 <striker> Look, my point is that there is no reason for Negativity.  If you feel the need to be Negative, get up and walk away.
17:37:02 <nirik> well, it wasn't the case here. You kept answering them and got more hostile
17:37:02 <striker> That is all I am asking.
17:37:08 <striker> Stop the negativity and bad language.
17:37:18 <nirik> so, yeah, just stop and walk away when it gets to that.
17:37:27 <EvilBob> There are many times such as the situation on the 16th of March that I could help the user but chose not to.
17:37:34 <nirik> thats completely fine
17:37:41 <nirik> IMHO
17:37:47 <pingou> definitely
17:37:57 <EvilBob> so to say "Sorry, I cannot assist you further, good day" would be a lie
17:38:15 <nirik> ok, how about "Sorry, I am unwilling to assist you further. Good luck"
17:38:37 <EvilBob> The FACT that striker and others wanted to team up with BAD advice lead me to move on for the day.
17:38:57 <EvilBob> nirik: That is exactly what I did.
17:39:53 <nirik> but then you went on to say "I suggest you read what I posted and follow the F through" and "These other two... I just have no interest in being involved where they are." to the user.
17:40:13 <EvilBob> But that was all taken out of context
17:40:34 <EvilBob> Don't start drinking the @*hat punch now nirik
17:40:36 <striker> That's not the point.  The comments are negative.
17:41:02 <EvilBob> striker: Not everything in life is positive
17:41:15 <nirik> why did you need to say that (to the user especially) after you told them you were not going to assist them further.
17:41:24 <striker> I don't feel like we are making progress here..
17:41:25 <pingou> EvilBob: doesn't mean we can't be positifve
17:41:27 <nirik> if you saw bad advise why not address that to the people giving it?
17:41:42 * nirik has coffee here, no punch
17:44:33 <nirik> so, where are we then... I guess we disagree that there is a reason to improve?
17:45:32 <nirik> but at least agreement to stop the munged curse words...
17:46:02 <striker> nirik: Just for the record, I am not disagreeing that there is a reason to improve.
17:46:15 <nirik> striker: right, I am saying perhaps EvilBob disagrees. :)
17:46:39 <aTypical> Honeslty, I'm left wondering if there are enough instances to say this is a problem.
17:47:00 <nirik> well, true... in recent times.
17:47:18 <aTypical> Is 1 bad engagement a month too many?
17:47:19 <xaphir> This type behavior has been going on with Bob Jensen for at least 5 years, and there hasn't been any improvement in that timeframe.  From his perspective, it's everybody elses problem.
17:47:22 <EvilBob> aTypical: It comes down to I hurt striker's feelings so he had to find something to file a ticket about.
17:47:24 <striker> Whether it happens once or ten times, it is a problem since it goes against the Code of Conduct.
17:47:38 <xaphir> See, this is what I mean.
17:47:48 <aTypical> striker, and Bob is the only one doing this?
17:48:00 <xaphir> aTypical, Bob is the topic here right now.
17:48:04 <striker> EvilBob: When someone who is a part of the Project acts in a negative manner against it's users, ofc it hurts my feelings.
17:48:05 <xaphir> not the universe
17:49:10 * nirik doesn't think grinding axes is a good or productive thing here.
17:49:30 <xaphir> There's alot of talk, but Bob still has the fedbot command password, and he has never been banned for his offenses, although other newbies have been banned for much less.
17:49:35 <nirik> we have 10minutes left of this meeting.
17:50:39 <xaphir> I'm not about grinding axes here, but this multi-year behavior has become just about plain to anybody watching.
17:50:43 <striker> I think my request is a reasonable one.  EvilBob does much as a developer to help the project.  The negativity in #fedora can stop.  That is all I am asking.
17:51:37 <EvilBob> striker: I don't do shit as a "developer" you don't even know what you are talking about.
17:52:00 <xaphir> I mean, this really has gone on long enough.
17:52:02 <EvilBob> Your lack of clue astounds me.
17:52:23 <EvilBob> But please continue to carry on with xaphir's witch hunt.
17:52:43 <xaphir> EvilBob, and you defense is to point away from anything you do.
17:52:46 <EvilBob> I'm sure you are a welcome member to the team over there.
17:53:03 <xaphir> You may be fooling other folks but not me.
17:53:07 <nirik> xaphir: I think you pretty much derailed the meeting. sad.
17:53:37 <xaphir> nirik, are you his mentor?
17:54:07 <nirik> no? what does that even mean?
17:54:26 <nirik> anyhow, we are out of time... there's another meeting in here in 5min...
17:54:32 <nirik> so I guess we continue in ticket.
17:54:35 <nirik> or on the list.
17:54:51 <xaphir> EvilBob, carry on as usual
17:55:15 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
17:55:15 <striker> nirik: Yes, I can continue this down another avenue since it does not seem progress was made here.
17:55:40 <nirik> striker: another avenue? uh, ok... i guess you can escalate to the council...
17:56:04 <nirik> anyone have anything for open floor?
17:57:06 <nirik> sorry this was not a productive meeting, but thanks for coming everyone anyhow.
17:57:11 <nirik> #endmeeting