17:00:09 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2016-05-12)
17:00:09 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu May 12 17:00:09 2016 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:09 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:09 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc_support_sig_(2016-05-12)'
17:00:09 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
17:00:10 <nirik> #topic init process
17:00:10 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
17:00:32 <nirik> anyone around for a irc support sig meeting?
17:00:41 <Southern_Gentlem> .hello jbwillia
17:00:43 <zodbot> Southern_Gentlem: jbwillia 'Ben Williams' <vaioof@yahoo.com>
17:01:32 <striker> .hello strikerttd
17:01:33 <zodbot> striker: strikerttd 'Striker Leggette' <striker@terranforge.com>
17:02:52 <nirik> ok then... I guess lets go ahead...
17:03:13 <nirik> #topic Recent problems/solutions/issues
17:03:31 <nirik> any common bugs people are hitting or other issues we should sync up on people see a lot in channel?
17:03:41 <nirik> it seems largely quiet/normal to me
17:03:49 <striker> seems normal, yes
17:03:56 <Southern_Gentlem> normal questions about beta to final
17:04:34 <nirik> yeah.
17:04:42 <Southern_Gentlem> i looked at the ban list and removed the one ban i did for a bouncer and left the usual suspects
17:04:52 <nirik> sounds good.
17:05:03 <Southern_Gentlem> topic has been changed
17:05:41 <nirik> I've seen a few "where is rpmfusion for f24" type questions...
17:05:46 <nirik> but not much we can do about that
17:05:56 <Southern_Gentlem> tell them to talk to rpmfusion
17:05:58 <striker> need to remember to direct to #rpmfusion
17:06:01 <striker> yes
17:06:34 <Southern_Gentlem> had someone trying to use epel this morning because they wanted vlc
17:06:47 <nirik> fun
17:07:04 <nirik> there is that negativo repo thats adding more and more... might be worth evaluating...
17:08:08 <nirik> anyhow, I guess lets move on to tickets then... we have one
17:08:24 <nirik> #topic ticket #189 Requesting immediate permaban on user known to be troll and doxxer
17:08:32 <striker> linuxmodder: are you here?
17:08:44 <linuxmodder> striker,  yeah why what's up
17:08:45 <nirik> I don't think there's anything for us to do here... aside from keep an eye out for them causing problems
17:08:53 <striker> I am confused about which channel you requested the user be banned from
17:09:12 <striker> also, we can only act on the channels the users actively cause problems in
17:09:15 <linuxmodder> striker,  honestly  ALL fedora channels and fas
17:09:28 <striker> We can't really ban from #fedora if they are causing issues in #otherchannel
17:09:35 <Southern_Gentlem> i reached out to tatica and told her a) i was willing to be an op in that channel b) if needed we the irc-support-sig could help as well
17:09:52 <linuxmodder> the user with those nicks are  known to cause  and  work with doxxers on  meskarune's  org net
17:10:26 <Southern_Gentlem> linuxmodder,  nothing we can do until they act up in the #fedora channel, and at the moment its not our call
17:10:34 <nirik> if they cause problems in fedora or social we can ban em... and keep an eye our for them
17:10:47 <linuxmodder> and  meskarune 's issue with that is  that would be too late
17:10:53 <meskarune> hey
17:11:13 <linuxmodder> meskarune,  talking about   tyil atm
17:11:16 <meskarune> The person is part of gamer gate and 8chan
17:11:39 <meskarune> I think the fact that they have been banned 3 other freenode channels for trolling is telling
17:11:40 <nirik> too late? not sure I understand
17:11:46 <Southern_Gentlem> linuxmodder,  this is in #fedora-diversity correct
17:12:06 <nirik> meskarune: indeed. Definitely someone to watch for in other channels.
17:12:09 <linuxmodder> it started there yes  meskarune  and I are hoping to head this off at the pass
17:12:13 <meskarune> Yeah, and someone who is part of gamer gate can cause a lot of issues for women and minorities. That channel is supposed to be a safe space
17:12:27 <Southern_Gentlem> have they trolled in #fedora-diversity
17:12:27 <meskarune> you can't call a place a safe space and allow gamer gate people to sit there
17:12:38 <meskarune> Southern_Gentlem: they did in the last meeting
17:12:50 <linuxmodder> tyil and  meiko nicks
17:12:54 <Southern_Gentlem> then its up to the ops in that channel
17:13:04 <meskarune> but again, even if they did not, you have a person who is part of a hate group in channel
17:13:05 <Southern_Gentlem> we do not have controll of it
17:13:17 <vwbusguy> hola
17:13:20 <meskarune> and no one who is female or a miniority will feel safe tehre
17:14:00 <nirik> if they caused problems there then the ops there should ban them... which has already happened I think?
17:14:07 <meskarune> no
17:14:10 <Southern_Gentlem> i also asked tatica to get a channel FAQ up for that channel
17:14:12 <meskarune> they aren't banned
17:14:38 <nirik> ok, so that should be something taken up with the ops for that channel then...
17:14:49 <striker> We can't do anything about #fedora-diversity here.
17:14:55 <Southern_Gentlem> at the moment
17:15:06 <nirik> that would be tatica, nb, or jflory7 it looks like.
17:15:11 <linuxmodder> nirik,  no offense but the big issue seems to be  lost to the channel --  everyone that comes in there could be  a target
17:15:25 <Southern_Gentlem> nb just got ops a day or so
17:15:41 <Southern_Gentlem> linuxmodder,  we cant do anything about it
17:15:50 <Southern_Gentlem> we dont have ops there
17:15:52 <nirik> linuxmodder: then you should consult with the people who can ban them from "in there"
17:15:56 <meskarune> you guys may not have had to deal with gamer gate, but they will sit in a channel and gather information about people, names, locations, etc and then post them to 4/8chan and target those people and dox them
17:15:59 <vwbusguy> Looking at the ticket - the guilty by association argument isn't very strong.  I wish we had accompanying chat logs to show what exactly transpired in chan
17:15:59 <meskarune> this is serious
17:16:26 <linuxmodder> jflory7 in my opinion will be a  panzy and  nb and tatica are busy  enough as is
17:16:27 <nirik> meskarune: I have heard horror stories for sure.
17:16:32 <meskarune> if you actually care about diversity and helping women and minorities you need to take a hard stance and protect them from getting doxxed
17:16:35 <Southern_Gentlem> then take it to tatica
17:16:42 <meskarune> she knows
17:17:05 <Southern_Gentlem> meskarune,  she has full control in that channel and i have reached out to her
17:17:15 <vwbusguy> Ah, I see the logs.  Sorry, catching up
17:17:22 <linuxmodder> but noone else seems to understand the gravity of  the  issues to any  member to join
17:17:26 <meskarune> well I think that you guys need to have a fedora wide policy in place
17:17:33 <bollocks_k> maybe increase attempts to educate users about online safety. if you get doxxed based on information you give in irc, effectively broadcasting it to the world, then you've made a mistake
17:17:39 <meskarune> about people who are known trolls in other communities
17:17:53 <meskarune> not just regular dumb trolling, but actual toxic behavior
17:18:05 <vwbusguy> these logs are just you and linuxmodder talking about the user.  I don't see any logs that directly quote the user in question
17:18:14 <nirik> meskarune: that sounds like something to take to the council. If you want to ban someone from the entire project
17:18:47 <meskarune> bollocks_k: not really. people have conversations, maybe they share a photos or mention they are going to a location specific restaurant. Most normal peopel are not going to dox you with that information.
17:18:49 <vwbusguy> ^^ Fedora-wide policy is beyond the scope of us
17:18:52 <nirik> bollocks_k: even if you are trying to be safe it doesn't help sometime
17:18:59 <meskarune> You cannot be blaming the victim for getting doxed and harrassed
17:19:05 <linuxmodder> and the likelihood council will take it serious fast enough  is low imo
17:19:29 <meskarune> nirik: the coucil is already involved atm
17:19:35 <nirik> meskarune: ok, great.
17:20:11 <nirik> so, really the only thing here is if we wanted to ban this person on the channels we manage... I wouldn't do that based on the information I have now, but would definitely watch for them to cause issues.
17:20:23 <Southern_Gentlem> meskarune,  we understand your concern, but there is nothing we can do about it, #fedora-diversity is outside of our control now if tatica wants our help I am sure we will gladly help
17:20:26 <bollocks_k> well banning a nick doesn't prevent that. if the channel is open to the public then putting a logging bot in it is tribial.
17:20:34 <vwbusguy> nirik, +1
17:20:50 <bollocks_k> *trivial
17:21:22 <nirik> bollocks_k: right. you can always come from more ips and use different nicks and accounts... it's always wack a mole
17:21:29 <meskarune> bollocks_k: bots aren't blocked in fedora channels? Also banning a troll who actively trolls in channel seems like a no-brainer to me
17:21:52 <vwbusguy> meskarune, There's no way to know if someone is actually just a "logging bot"
17:22:01 <bollocks_k> when i sleep my client is a logging bot
17:22:03 <meskarune> In my irc channels non-official bots are banned, and anyone found to have one is banned along with their bot
17:22:03 <linuxmodder> vwbusguy,  bs
17:22:12 <vwbusguy> bollocks_k, yup
17:22:22 <meskarune> vwbusguy: you can do ctcp and try to issue commands to it
17:22:23 <vwbusguy> linuxmodder, Anyone that runs xchat with logging then?
17:22:37 <meskarune> it is very possible to figure out if a nick is a bot
17:22:46 <nirik> we ban bots when we find them... often it's impossible to tell
17:23:01 <meskarune> The point is that you should try
17:23:05 <nirik> meskarune: oh? do tell
17:23:09 <meskarune> You know this person is a troll
17:23:13 <striker> Folks in the #fedora channel must read and follow the FAQ and Code of Conduct.  If they do not, the ops will take action.  In the same respect, OPs must follow http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC_operators_code_of_conduct
17:23:14 <meskarune> and they aren't banned
17:23:15 <striker> "Activities that take place outside the fedora channels, (ie, private messages, activity in non fedora channels, real life interaction, mailing lists, forums, etc) should be considered separate from operator responsibilities. Judge user action based on their channel activity only."
17:23:38 <meskarune> striker: yeah, but that is very narrow minded
17:23:45 <meskarune> plus they have trolled in channel
17:23:47 <Southern_Gentlem> meskarune,  ask the ops in #fedora-diversity
17:24:03 <vwbusguy> meskarune, If someone trolls a runner on Twitch and get banned there, they don't get banned in #Fedora.  It's nice to know a history, but guilty by association isn't enough for a pre-emptive ban
17:24:03 <bollocks_k> trolling should be a temp ban imho
17:24:06 <striker> meskarune: If they have trolled in #fedora, feel free to open a ticket with us and provide logs.
17:24:21 <striker> Trolling in #non-fedora will not get you banned in #fedora.
17:24:22 <meskarune> striker: the logs are for the diversity meeting
17:24:23 <linuxmodder> so who controls the other  channels  then if not the irc-sig
17:24:27 <meskarune> so you have them already
17:24:27 <striker> We do not manage #fedora-diversity.
17:24:31 * nirik notes again: This sig manages #fedora, #fedora-social, #fedora-ops and #fedora-unregistered.
17:24:42 <nirik> linuxmodder: the ops in each of those channels access lists.
17:24:50 <meskarune> striker: I was under the impression that a perma-ban had to go through y'all
17:24:59 <nirik> for those 4 channels yes.
17:25:03 <striker> For channels we manage, yes.
17:25:06 <nirik> For any other channels. no.
17:25:08 <striker> ^
17:25:09 <bollocks_k> well banning a nick because of their affiliation with outside groups is a slippery slope and to be honest would probably result in me being banned
17:25:15 <linuxmodder> so if they don't see it  cuz they aren't in that channel is screwed?
17:25:26 <vwbusguy> It's also against our ethos as a meritocracy
17:25:44 <Southern_Gentlem> meskarune,  we have been came down by the community for being too strict that is why those policies exist
17:25:44 <meskarune> bollocks_k: oh? do you post rape jokes and stick hitler on your wallpaper and troll in women's project channels on irc?
17:26:07 <striker> meskarune: let's tread lightly here - I think answers have been given.
17:26:11 <bollocks_k> i post rape jokes in other channels.
17:26:18 <nirik> ?
17:26:19 <Southern_Gentlem> meskarune,  if i see it and i have op in the channel yes i would ban them but i do not
17:26:24 <striker> We are not banning anyone from #fedora for things they do in channels we do not manage.
17:26:32 * nirik thinks we should get back on topic here.
17:26:34 <meskarune> bollocks_k: I can't believe you really think that is appropriate
17:27:08 <meskarune> so to be clear, tactica can perma-ban with her own discretion in #fedora-diversity
17:27:11 <linuxmodder> then here's a  scary scenario they troll cahnnels  this  sig doesn't  control and  screws folks  unknowing to them
17:27:18 <Southern_Gentlem> meskarune,  the internet and irc are not safe places
17:27:18 * nirik either. Not clear if you are trying to make a point or what.
17:27:24 <vwbusguy> Let's agree that if bollocks_k does that in #fedora, that means a ban.  If he does it on Twitch, I'll have concerns for his character, but that doesn't translate to a ban in #Fedora as long as  he behaves when he's here
17:27:28 <bollocks_k> it's about consent ... lol. people in those other channels consent to a different set of acceptable behavior by joining that channel
17:27:40 <meskarune> Southern_Gentlem: no, but that channel is listed as having the goal of being a safe space
17:27:55 <nirik> meskarune: "so to be clear, tactica can perma-ban with her own discretion in #fedora-diversity" <- yes, or anyone who is an op there.
17:28:11 <meskarune> ok, what about #fedora-meeting ?
17:28:19 <nirik> same
17:28:25 <striker> meskarune: If you have a problem with #fedora-diversity, speak to the ops there.  We can't do anything about it here.
17:28:31 <vwbusguy> meskarune, This SIG has a clearly defined scope
17:28:38 <Southern_Gentlem> meskarune,  /cs access #fedora-meeting list
17:28:47 <nirik> There are people who have been banned from fedora-meeting in the past...
17:29:12 <Southern_Gentlem> meskarune,  if it happens again in #fedora-meeting come and get me
17:29:20 <meskarune> ok
17:29:26 <nirik> or anyone on the ops list
17:29:40 <vwbusguy> meskarune, And if you see this happen in #Fedora, please do report it to us
17:29:44 <nirik> which you can get with: /cs access #whateverchannel list
17:29:47 <linuxmodder> nirik,   does a #cahir in a mtg  have ops from that sense?
17:29:50 <meskarune> but in the meantime you have someone from gamer gate who doesn't have a fedora account or even use fedora sitting in your community. Your diversity efforts are already shit
17:29:57 <Southern_Gentlem> linuxmodder,  no
17:30:05 <nirik> linuxmodder: nope you have to be a op to change the ban list
17:30:29 <vwbusguy> meskarune, That's more of an ideological disagreement, frankly.
17:30:46 <bollocks_k> what if, for example, i think gamer gaters are under-represented in the fedora project? doesn't that mean they should be welcome in fedora-diversity?
17:30:58 <linuxmodder> what meskarune  just said is what I fear making  diversity  a  case of  what  EMEA has been fighting for 3 years with  hit and quit  efforts
17:31:13 <meskarune> vwbusguy: I don't see how. If you want women and minorities to contribute to fedora you need to not make them feel unsafe here
17:31:24 <nirik> lets not get into a discussion of diversity here... it's not in our scope
17:31:58 <striker> I think this topic has a clear answer.  No bans will be issued in channels we manage for things that happen in channels we do not manage.
17:32:08 <vwbusguy> This isn't about gamer gate.  If someone attacks women in our chans, they will get banned.  Doing a pre-emptive strike is a different ballgame and we're not in the business of censoring the internet beyond #Fedora
17:32:32 <meskarune> striker: ok, so to get someoen banned from all of fedora if they troll in a place like fedora-diversity how would someone go about doing that?
17:32:46 <nirik> meskarune: council
17:32:47 <vwbusguy> meskarune, The board
17:32:50 <meskarune> ok
17:33:19 <nirik> vwbusguy: now the council. ;)
17:33:35 <vwbusguy> nirik, jedis...
17:33:41 <Southern_Gentlem> meskarune,  do you understand Fedora doesnt own freenode and therefore we have to abide by their rules as well, some of the issues you have stated can be against freenode policies as well
17:34:06 <Southern_Gentlem> so if nothing else when its happening reach out to the freenode staff as well
17:34:15 <Southern_Gentlem> they can do network bans
17:34:56 <Southern_Gentlem> meskarune,  when was the meeting you said they were trolling please
17:35:26 <bollocks_k> the way to kill trolls is to not give them lulz. ignore them and they go looking for better sources of lulz.
17:35:32 <vwbusguy> meskarune, I've been watching a female gamer on Twitch this whole time as we've been having this meeting.  It's not about whether or not gamer gate is a horrible thing.  It's a matter of #Fedora policy.
17:36:06 <meskarune> vwbusguy: I'm female
17:36:20 <meskarune> I have worked in out reach and diversity efforts for 10 years
17:36:58 <meskarune> If the policy doesn't allow you to quickly and privately ban someone who is toxic then the policy needs to change so that your community stays nice
17:37:08 <meskarune> with the new diversity stuff y'all are goign to be targets
17:37:12 <bollocks_k> privately?
17:37:15 <mianosm> ^
17:37:23 <mianosm> Privately is an odd choice.
17:37:38 <meskarune> bollocks_k: yes, as soon as gamer gate sees nicks associated with bans they retaliate
17:37:39 <vwbusguy> meskarune, We do have such a policy.  If someone does that in #Fedora, they get banned
17:38:00 <meskarune> I don't think the troll should be publicly shamed, and I don't think the victims should have their names public either
17:38:02 <nirik> vwbusguy: I think meskarune is looking for a project wide ban
17:38:19 <meskarune> so having things private is good for everyone
17:38:25 <vwbusguy> nirik, I gathered that much - just clarifying the scope of this SIG
17:38:28 <nirik> which we have, but it's via the council, and it's not quick I suspect. ;)
17:38:45 <meskarune> nirik: yeah, and I think you need a way to quickly deal with 4chan troll raids
17:39:01 <meskarune> because banning people as they troll in each channel isn't a great way to deal wtih them
17:39:07 <bollocks_k> if someone is blacklisted from a project that values openness it should be done in a public fashion for clearly articulated reasons based on agreed upon policy
17:39:26 <meskarune> to be clear, I don't mean regular trolls but people who organize campaiges against others
17:39:34 <Southern_Gentlem> we agree
17:39:36 <nirik> meskarune: perhaps so, do take it up with the council... I look forward to seeing the discussion or policy
17:40:15 <vwbusguy> bollocks_k, +1
17:40:25 <meskarune> bollocks_k: If someone is sexually harrassed or being trolled by a person from gamer gate I do not think their nick should be made public because of retaliation
17:40:51 <meskarune> I think there is a difference between having something private with over sight and having something be public for everyone
17:40:53 <Southern_Gentlem> meskarune,  who said we would do that
17:41:16 <bollocks_k> have you ever seen how a raid is organized? people come back bragging about their bans and how they circumvented it
17:41:21 <nirik> well, ban lists on freenode are public... but we don't do any kind of wall of shame or anything.
17:41:22 <meskarune> Southern_Gentlem: bollocks_k said any ban type things should be public
17:41:32 <striker> this is getting off-topic
17:41:35 * nirik nods.
17:41:37 <Southern_Gentlem> meskarune,  also advise everyone in diversity to set /umode +g as they log in
17:41:43 <nirik> anything more, or shall we move on?
17:41:43 <meskarune> Southern_Gentlem: ok thanks
17:42:42 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
17:42:48 <nirik> anyone have any items for open floor?
17:43:06 <striker> Anyone else on the ban list that can be removed? https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/wiki/fedora-banned
17:43:23 <striker> I think most or all of those are perma-bans.
17:43:46 <nb> hi
17:44:04 <nirik> I think a lot of them could be consolidated, but we could do that out of meeting
17:44:56 <Southern_Gentlem> striker i have remove all but the perm ban people
17:45:02 <striker> Southern_Gentlem: ack
17:45:41 <nb> ack
17:45:42 <nirik> nb: you might read back the meeting and look if you can assist any in #fedora-diversity
17:47:00 <nb> #info Southern_Gentlem and nirik are now on the op list for #fedora-diversity also
17:47:21 <nb> nirik, yeah, i'll talk to tatica, although I'm hesitant to ban the user preemptively, at least without tatica making the decision
17:48:03 <nirik> please do.
17:48:07 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone.
17:48:10 <nirik> #endmeeting