17:03:24 <Heidiellis> #startmeeting IRC meeting 2
17:03:24 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu May 23 17:03:24 2019 UTC.
17:03:24 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:03:24 <zodbot> The chair is Heidiellis. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:03:24 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:03:24 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc_meeting_2'
17:03:30 <kwebb> Hello
17:03:32 <Heidiellis> #chair lorip
17:03:32 <zodbot> Current chairs: Heidiellis lorip
17:03:40 <Heidiellis> #topic Introductions
17:03:52 <Heidiellis> Let'd go through and do brief intros so we know who is here.
17:04:06 <Heidiellis> Please remember to use the #info tag
17:04:27 <dletarte> #info Dominic Letarte from Temple University
17:04:30 <Heidiellis> #info Heidi Ellis, Western New England University, POSSE facilitator and excited to meet everyone face-to-face in a few weeks!
17:04:42 <DanielaInclezan> #info Daniela Inclezan, Miami University
17:04:47 <chbrooks> #info Chris Brooks from University of San Francisco
17:04:48 <roosen> #info Andy Roosen, University of Delaware
17:04:49 <lillethd> #info Dave Lillethun from Seatle University (lillethd@seattleu.edu)
17:04:51 <lorip> #info Hi All!  I'm Lori Postner from Nassau Community College in Long Island, NY.  I'm one of the POSSE organizers and bummed that I won't be meeting you face-to-face in Phili
17:04:52 <kwebb> #info Kevin Webb, Swarthmore College
17:05:28 <olga> #info Olga Glebova, Georgia State University
17:05:50 <Heidiellis> OK! I think that is everyone!
17:06:04 <Heidiellis> OUr agenda is here:
17:06:06 <Heidiellis> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/IRC_Meeting_2
17:06:33 <Heidiellis> #topic Update and Questions on Stage 1
17:06:41 <Heidiellis> So how is stage 1 going? Any questions?
17:07:25 <chbrooks> Pretty good for me. No questions yet - I'm having fun with it!
17:07:43 <Heidiellis> Good chbrooks !
17:07:44 <kwebb> Same -- no questions thus far
17:07:52 <Heidiellis> Someone else?
17:07:56 <dletarte> Going well for me, discovering new open source projects.
17:08:16 <Heidiellis> Please remember to log your progress in the spreadsheet:
17:08:17 <Heidiellis> #link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HvgclSLZE4f1fDrw9S7ywP6MrMsAaWjWXATQ3W7H3Wg/edit#gid=0
17:08:32 <DanielaInclezan> I found the "Project Evaluation" activity to be very useful.
17:08:45 <Heidiellis> DanielaInclezan, That's great.
17:08:46 <olga> Ok for me now, need to speed up though :)
17:08:53 <Heidiellis> That particular activity can take a lot of time.
17:09:16 <lorip> one of the things we are always trying to gauge is time spent - are you finding our estimates/suggestions helpful/accurate?
17:09:55 <dletarte> They were more mimimum than average times for me.
17:10:05 <chbrooks> They're helpful - sometimes I start wandering down different paths and take longer than is suggested, but that's my issue :-)
17:10:14 <DanielaInclezan> I think I'll need to redo the project evaluation for the 2-3 potential projects I'll be working on, so then it will take more time than the estimate.
17:10:25 <lorip> olga: don't worry if you are a bit behind, we understand that the end of the semester is tough timing
17:10:44 <Heidiellis> DanielaInclezan, having students do the project evaluation activity can also be helpful.
17:10:57 <lillethd> I’m way behind too, TBH.  Probably going to do what I always tell my students not to - cram Part B over the weeked.  ;)
17:10:59 <Heidiellis> Gives students some direction when investigating a project.
17:11:13 <lillethd> We’re on quarters, so it’s still midterm time here.
17:11:18 <Heidiellis> lillethd, Yup, we get that. End of spring term is a very busy time!
17:11:46 <Terry_> tough timing here too, but I have used most of these in class.
17:11:52 <Heidiellis> chbrooks, Yes, you can take _lots_ of time on some of these activities :-)  Explore to your heart's content.
17:12:23 <lorip> Terry_ that's awesome!  which class?
17:12:46 <Terry_> Intro Software Engineering, 2nd semester sophomores
17:13:08 <lorip> cool - any particular project?
17:14:30 <Terry_> no, just getting names and comparing in IntroFoss, and then looking at some of the anatomy. I have not had them do the IRC lessons
17:15:48 <lorip> any other thoughts/questions about the stage 1 activities you've been working on?
17:15:50 <Heidiellis> We are migrating to our next topic so I'll change the topic
17:16:00 <Heidiellis> #topic Courses for HFOSS
17:16:12 <Heidiellis> What courses are folks considering to use HFOSS in?
17:16:19 * lorip thinking - timing in IRC is always so hard to gauge!
17:16:45 <olga> Intro programming 1
17:17:16 <chbrooks> I sometimes teach a class called Computers and Society. It is a service-learning class in which we look at social issues around computing and then students do a large software project to serve a social justice or community project. I think this will fit in great with it.
17:17:35 <Heidiellis> chbrooks, Yes, this sounds like a good fit!
17:17:36 <dletarte> Software Design and Software Engineering (Capstone)
17:17:47 <Terry_> I want to do more in Intro Software Engineering, especially if we can get the curated containers (or whatever) off the ground. I have a hard time explaining scale to my students.
17:17:54 <lorip> chbrooks - what a cool course - what year is it in the curriculum?
17:17:54 <roosen> I’ve a 2nd-semester freshman course; esentially “introduction to C, UNIX, and standard development tools”
17:17:58 <kwebb> Given enrollment pressues, my only option right now is to lead a small independent study with ~4-6 students.
17:18:10 <Heidiellis> chbrooks, I do warn you that I've not been hugely successful in getting actual code contributions to an HFOSS project within a 15-week term.
17:18:19 <chbrooks> Anyone who's taken CS 2 can take it - usually sophomores or juniors.
17:18:20 <DanielaInclezan> Courses: capstone project design and, possibly, comparative programming languages. Some of the intro FOSS exercises are applicable to a class on "Technology, ethics, and global society".
17:18:23 <Heidiellis> kwebb, That is an excellent way to work with HFOSS.
17:18:31 <lorip> kwebb - independent study is a great way to get started!
17:18:32 <Heidiellis> These all sound cool!
17:18:40 <Heidiellis> :-)
17:18:58 <chbrooks> Heidiellis - thanks! I mostly want them to get exposure to a large development project - we'll figure out other things for the direct service part, I think.
17:19:13 <Heidiellis> Exactly!
17:19:35 <lorip> and it is great for them to see how computing can be used to better society
17:19:37 <Terry_> The git lessons work for many levels of class - I'd like to see our curriculum use git early and often
17:19:39 <Heidiellis> chbrooks, I really want my students to have at least a taste of real-world size and complexity before they encounter it in the real world.
17:19:48 <Heidiellis> Terry_, +1
17:19:54 <chbrooks> me too!
17:20:06 <Heidiellis> Heidiellis, thinks that the "+1" is FOSS shorthand for agreement.
17:20:19 <lorip> there was an interesting sigcse thread on git in the curriculum
17:21:36 <lorip> lillethd - what course would you like to use?
17:22:28 <lillethd> That’s what I’m wondering about…  there isn’t a lot of room for new stuff in the curriculum right now, and I don’t think a senior-level elective would be the best choice, especially given that they’re already doing a big capstone project in their senior year
17:23:20 <lillethd> Also, Heidiellis mentinoed difficulty making real contribution in a single term…  so I’m wondering if there is some more modest goal to aim for?  or some way to do this over a longer time scale that would make student contributions possible?
17:23:30 <lorip> it can be difficult to figure out where/how to incorporate HFOSS - hopefully you'll get some ideas listening from others
17:23:50 <lillethd> And I’m entertaining other options besides traditional classes, if that seems more practical…
17:23:57 <Heidiellis> Starting by getting students up to speed in HFOSS culture and tools in early classes will make contributions in the later ones possible.
17:24:03 <lillethd> lorip That’s what I’m hoping for!  :)
17:24:04 <Heidiellis> Ah, Mozilla clubs!
17:24:13 <Heidiellis> lillethd, Mozilla runs open source clubs
17:24:16 * Heidiellis looks for the link
17:24:50 <Heidiellis> #link https://campus.mozilla.community/
17:24:53 <lorip> lillethd: great question!  we've struggled with that idea, is there a way to spread things through the intro sequence so they have skills and some project familiarity it make later contribution possible
17:25:07 <lorip> Heidiellis: isn't Dickinson working on this model?
17:25:24 <Heidiellis> Mozilla has been working for a couple of years to get FOSS clubs on campuses and they have curricula to help.
17:25:36 <Heidiellis> Yes, Dickinson is threading HFOSS throughout their curriculum.
17:26:00 <Heidiellis> They started by adding a few HFOSS exercises in their freshman/Sophomore courses.
17:26:05 <Terry_> I think Mozilla is also sponsoring student leaders to go to FOSS camp
17:26:18 <lorip> lillethd: if you are interested in what Dickinson College is doing we can definitely put you in touch with them
17:26:21 <Heidiellis> They also redesigned their capstone to be a 2-semester course that works on an HFOSS project.
17:27:22 <lorip> Terry_ we've had students attend their leadership weekends for the past two summers - I haven't heard of the plans for that this summer - Heidiellis: do you know?
17:27:44 <Heidiellis> I don't know of any plans for this summer.
17:28:10 <lillethd> lorip Yeah, for sure!
17:28:28 <lillethd> Heidiellis Thanks for the link.  I’ll check out the Mozilla clubs….  looks interesting.
17:28:35 <Heidiellis> Super!
17:29:25 <Terry_> Entering the first pass search terms is not useful :P
17:29:26 <Heidiellis> We will continue to talk about courses in the next IRC and you'll have time during Stage 2 to work on activities for courses.
17:29:28 <lorip> lillethd: I'll do an e-intro to Grant Braught - he's been doing the redesign
17:29:30 <lillethd> I know capstone isn’t an option for us, though.  We allready have an all-year-long capstone with industry-sponsored projects, so that system is pretty well in place...
17:29:57 <lillethd> Thanks lorip
17:30:02 <Heidiellis> lillethd, Could some of the projects be HFOSS? Might you have a team that would like to try that?
17:30:17 <Heidiellis> I know that at Drexel, they offer the option of both industry and HFOSS projects.
17:30:32 <lillethd> Heidiellis *some* of them…  maybe.  But not *all* of them…
17:30:42 <Heidiellis> Some is better than none ;-)
17:31:28 <Heidiellis> We can continue to talk about courses in the coming weeks. I'm going to change the topic to stage 2.
17:31:32 <Heidiellis> #topic Stage 2
17:31:38 <Heidiellis> Are there questions about stage 2 activities?
17:31:47 <Heidiellis> Has everyone made their travel plans?
17:31:49 <lillethd> Heidiellis And I’d have to see if it would even work at that.  They start at the beginning with gathering requirements, creating use cases / user stories, project planning, etc.  and a lot of that would work very differently in an open source project, I think.
17:32:04 * kwebb lives in Philly
17:32:35 <Heidiellis> lillethd, Yes, it does. I've worked on HFOSS projects using a set of IEEE templates for things like requirements, design, etc. So I know it can be done.
17:32:51 <lillethd> Heidiellis I made a post-it on my personal scrum board telling me to make the plans.  Does that count?  ;)
17:32:59 * dletarte commuting by bike from museum area in Philly
17:33:03 <Heidiellis> Definitely!  :-)
17:33:15 <chbrooks> I booked my flight already!
17:33:17 * Heidiellis is in awe that lillethd has a personal scrum board....
17:33:21 <Heidiellis> chbrooks, Good!
17:33:31 <Terry_> I'm commuting from Wilmington DE
17:33:40 <DanielaInclezan> I booked my flight too.
17:33:45 <olga> It'll be my very first trip to Philly, very excited!
17:33:54 <roosen> I’m only slightly further than Terry_ :)
17:34:29 <Heidiellis> roosen,  Good!
17:34:36 <Heidiellis> olga, Philly is fun!
17:34:51 <olga> I have no doubt! :)
17:34:54 <lillethd> Heidiellis It helps keep things organized better than a traditional to-do list…  But it can potentially add to the stress at busy times when I see 10 bit tasks all in the “in progress” column at once, every time I look up…  O.O
17:34:56 <Heidiellis> We'll be eating dinner Tuesday at a local Italian restaurant.
17:35:24 <Heidiellis> lillethd, I get that! I just use about 8 colored pads. The team laughs at me, but it works.
17:35:27 <kwebb> Heidiellis: Do you know the name?  I have dietary constraints and would like to scout ahead
17:35:37 <lillethd> olga Take some extra time to visit the city if you can!  There’s lots of cool historical stuff, museums, etc. etc.
17:35:40 <Heidiellis> DiPietros
17:35:44 <kwebb> Thanks
17:35:46 * Heidiellis looks up the link
17:37:10 <Terry_> I'm hoping to figure out trains
17:37:27 <Heidiellis> #link https://pietrospizza.com/walnut-street.asp
17:38:07 <Heidiellis> Any other questions about stage 2?
17:38:08 <kwebb> Looks good, thanks
17:38:10 <Heidiellis> Dress is casual.
17:38:32 <chbrooks> I'm good.
17:38:42 <Heidiellis> kwebb, let me know via email what you need. We frequently order family style apps and salads and we can accommodate.
17:39:23 <kwebb> Heidiellis: I'm celiac, so gluten free.  It looks like they have plenty of options, but family style might not work for me
17:39:46 <Heidiellis> Got it.
17:40:15 <Heidiellis> If you put this in your application, we also would have got it from there. We check before we order food.
17:40:23 <kwebb> I did, thanks! :)
17:41:34 <Heidiellis> Super
17:42:06 <Heidiellis> Any other questions about stage 2 activities?
17:42:23 <DanielaInclezan> No questions from me.
17:42:37 <Heidiellis> OK, moving on then.
17:42:39 <Heidiellis> #topic Stage 2 group signups
17:43:09 <Heidiellis> Some part of what we'll do when we're in Phila is to work in teams on incorporating HFOSS into your courses.
17:43:30 <Terry_> One year Grant was able to work with Cam and get through a simple commit process start to finish. That would be very nice.
17:43:52 <Heidiellis> Therefore, we would like for you to sign up for one or more courses in which you would like to incorporate HFOSS
17:43:55 <Heidiellis> The sign up is here:
17:43:59 <Heidiellis> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/Stage2_Groups
17:44:24 <Heidiellis> dletarte, Has already signed up.
17:44:33 <Heidiellis> Please pick at least one course.
17:44:42 <Heidiellis> And you're not committing yourself permanently.
17:44:56 <Heidiellis> This just gives us an idea of interest which helps setting up teams.
17:45:02 <chbrooks> I signed up for standalone, but I can join in with the capstone folks if there's no one else in that group.
17:45:34 <Heidiellis> chbrooks, Lets see how things fall out during the face-to-face meeting.
17:45:47 * chbrooks thumbs-up
17:45:56 <kwebb> chbrooks: I just joined that group too
17:46:02 <lillethd> chbrooks I was thinking of joining you in stand-alone.
17:46:07 <Heidiellis> This is to nudge people to plan, but we have found that plans change between mid-point stage 1 and the end of stage 2. :-)
17:46:08 <chbrooks> awesome!
17:46:08 <olga> Ha I was trying to login and apparently none of my emails is good enough to try to recover a password. Puzzled %)
17:46:19 <lillethd> Although I might put my name on both that and software engineering / capstone...
17:46:48 <Heidiellis> olga, Can you find the email that was sent with your login information?
17:47:41 <lillethd> Should I put my name under a course *and* a project, a course *or* a project, or just a course for now?
17:47:42 <olga> It worked!
17:48:37 <Heidiellis> BOth is fine.
17:48:42 <olga> I now remembered it wasn't me who made up a username
17:48:53 <lillethd> The website keeps going up and down on me.  :(
17:48:56 <Heidiellis> We find that some POSSE groups organize around projects and some around courses. This one seems to be around courses.
17:49:42 <lorip> lillethd - hmm, is that while you are trying to modify the wiki?
17:49:58 <olga> Not sure if the change I submitted went through. It says page is down. I wonder if it's from all of us or because I am far far away now
17:50:27 * lorip checking...
17:50:52 <lillethd> lorip This time, yes, but it’s also doing it now when I go to any other page on foss2serve.org  and it also went down earlier when I was just looking (not logged in), but it came back again, and now is down again…
17:51:06 * lorip wiki definitely seems to be down
17:51:32 <lorip> the wiki is housed at drexel, so we'll have to check with greg to see what the issue is
17:51:40 <lorip> sorry for the inconvenience
17:52:05 <lillethd> No worries.  :)  I can add myself to the list later if necessary.
17:53:31 <Heidiellis> I just pinged Greg to see if he could take a look.
17:53:51 <Terry_> I think it is working for me? I can open an edit page
17:53:58 <chbrooks> It's back now, at least in California :-)
17:54:04 <Heidiellis> :-)
17:54:14 <lillethd> Heidiellis Do you have a pointer to those IEEE templates for the projects that you mentioned earlier?  Or any other info about gathering requirements for open source projects?
17:54:34 * Heidiellis looks
17:54:46 <olga> Wohoo! Works - just edited it.
17:55:05 <Heidiellis> lillethd, http://mars.wne.edu/~hellis/CS490/
17:55:18 <lillethd> It’s working again for me too.
17:55:24 <lorip> yeah olga!
17:55:27 <Heidiellis> This is the link to my most recent Software Engineering course.
17:55:45 <Heidiellis> lillethd, this shows the use of the templates in a course.
17:55:56 <lillethd> Thanks Heidiellis
17:56:40 <Heidiellis> lillethd, I've got a zip file of the templates and a bunch of other stuff.
17:56:49 <Heidiellis> If you send me an email, I'll hunt it up and send it along.
17:58:02 * Heidiellis notes that we are approaching the one-hour mark.
17:58:12 <Heidiellis> Are there any other questions?
17:58:35 <DanielaInclezan> Can we add other projects to the sign-up page?
17:58:38 <Heidiellis> Please remember to log progress in the spreadsheet:
17:58:46 <Heidiellis> #link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HvgclSLZE4f1fDrw9S7ywP6MrMsAaWjWXATQ3W7H3Wg/edit#gid=0
17:58:53 <chbrooks> I'm good for now. Thanks for organizing!
17:59:04 <Heidiellis> DanielaInclezan, We would prefer that you stick to one of the provided projects for now.
17:59:12 <DanielaInclezan> Sounds good, thanks!
17:59:24 <Terry_> Heidiellis by templates do you mean the link to IEEE830?
17:59:27 <Heidiellis> We find it helpful to have more than one person working on a project and so we aim folks at a set that are intro-friendly.
17:59:35 <lorip> DanielaInclezan: we try to use projects that we have some experience with, it makes answering questions easier!
17:59:48 <DanielaInclezan> Makes sense :)
18:00:08 <Heidiellis> DanielaInclezan, So you can pick any project you like for your class, but for the workshop it is helpful to use one on the list.
18:00:26 <Heidiellis> Terry_, Yes, that IEEE830 is not the full version.
18:00:47 <Heidiellis> It is a pared down version that contains lots of comments to help students complete the document.
18:01:17 <lillethd> That looks like it’s more about how to document the requirements, not so much where the requirements come from - is that more or less right?
18:01:20 <lorip> anything else?
18:01:32 <Terry_> Heide: thanks!
18:01:38 <chbrooks> I need to jump off for my next meeting. looking forward to seeing you all in person!
18:02:14 <Terry_> irc is better for people whi can type
18:02:30 <kwebb> :D
18:02:42 <olga> All, I have to run now. See you soon!
18:02:56 <DanielaInclezan> Bye everyone!
18:03:00 <roosen> bye
18:03:06 <Heidiellis> Bye folks!
18:03:09 <Heidiellis> #endmeeting