16:02:56 <sochotni> #startmeeting Java SIG -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Java
16:02:56 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Feb 26 16:02:56 2013 UTC.  The chair is sochotni. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:02:56 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:03:00 <sochotni> #meetingname Java SIG
16:03:00 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'java_sig'
16:03:04 <sochotni> #topic roll-call
16:03:08 <sochotni> .fasinfo sochotni
16:03:09 <zodbot> sochotni: User: sochotni, Name: Stanislav Ochotnicky, email: sochotni@redhat.com, Creation: 2010-04-06, IRC Nick: , Timezone: Europe/Prague, Locale: en, GPG key ID:  71A1677C, Status: active
16:03:12 <zodbot> sochotni: Approved Groups: +gitfedorareview fedorabugs cla_redhat cla_fedora cla_done +packager provenpackager @git-javapackages
16:03:17 <jerboaa> .fasinfo jerboaa
16:03:18 <msrb> .fasinfo msrb
16:03:18 <zodbot> jerboaa: User: jerboaa, Name: None, email: jerboaa@gmail.com, Creation: 2010-06-17, IRC Nick: None, Timezone: None, Locale: None, GPG key ID: None, Status: active
16:03:21 <tradej> .fasinfo tradej
16:03:21 <zodbot> jerboaa: Approved Groups: cla_fedora cla_done cla_redhat packager fedorabugs @giteclipse-fedorapackager
16:03:24 <zodbot> msrb: User: msrb, Name: Michal Srb, email: msrb@redhat.com, Creation: 2012-12-04, IRC Nick: None, Timezone: UTC, Locale: en, GPG key ID: None, Status: active
16:03:27 <zodbot> msrb: Approved Groups: @gitmaven-rpminstall-plugin fedorabugs packager cla_done cla_fpca
16:03:30 <zodbot> tradej: User: tradej, Name: Tomas Radej, email: tradej@redhat.com, Creation: 2011-08-03, IRC Nick: tradej, Timezone: Europe/Prague, Locale: en, GPG key ID: , Status: active
16:03:34 <zodbot> tradej: Approved Groups: provenpackager cla_fpca cla_done packager fedorabugs
16:03:55 <vanaltj> .fasinfo jvanalte
16:03:56 <zodbot> vanaltj: User: jvanalte, Name: Jon VanAlten, email: jon.vanalten@redhat.com, Creation: 2011-05-19, IRC Nick: vanaltj, Timezone: UTC, Locale: en, GPG key ID: , Status: active
16:03:59 <zodbot> vanaltj: Approved Groups: packager fedorabugs cla_fpca cla_done
16:04:15 <akurtakov> .fasinfo akurtakov
16:04:20 <zodbot> akurtakov: User: akurtakov, Name: Alexander Kurtakov, email: akurtako@redhat.com, Creation: 2008-10-01, IRC Nick: akurtakov, Timezone: Europe/Sofia, Locale: en, GPG key ID: , Status: active
16:04:23 <zodbot> akurtakov: Approved Groups: @giteclipse-packagekit cla_fedora cla_done cla_redhat fedorabugs +packager provenpackager @git-javapackages @giteclipse-fedorapackager
16:04:42 <neugens> .fasinfo neugens
16:04:43 <zodbot> neugens: User: neugens, Name: Mario Torre, email: neugens@redhat.com, Creation: 2007-03-20, IRC Nick: neugens, Timezone: UTC, Locale: en, GPG key ID: 80F240CF, Status: active
16:04:46 <zodbot> neugens: Approved Groups: cla_fedora cla_fpca cla_done packager fedorabugs
16:05:22 <sochotni> few more minutes I guess
16:05:35 <rgrunber> .fasinfo rgrunber
16:05:36 <zodbot> rgrunber: User: rgrunber, Name: Roland Grunberg, email: rgrunber@redhat.com, Creation: 2009-07-23, IRC Nick: rgrunber, Timezone: America/Toronto, Locale: en, GPG key ID: , Status: active
16:05:39 <zodbot> rgrunber: Approved Groups: @giteclipse-packagekit cla_fedora cla_done cla_redhat packager fedorabugs @giteclipse-fedorapackager
16:06:01 <mizdebsk> .fasinfo mizdebsk
16:06:02 <zodbot> mizdebsk: User: mizdebsk, Name: Mikolaj Izdebski, email: mizdebsk@redhat.com, Creation: 2012-04-02, IRC Nick: mizdebsk, Timezone: Europe/Prague, Locale: en, GPG key ID: , Status: active
16:06:06 <zodbot> mizdebsk: Approved Groups: @gitmaven-rpminstall-plugin provenpackager git-javapackages cla_fpca cla_done packager fedorabugs @gitjava-deptools
16:06:27 <sochotni> kdaniel incoming I'd guess...
16:07:27 <sochotni> ok, let's start without him
16:07:36 <sochotni> #topic New guidelines & XMvn packaging
16:07:42 <sochotni> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Msrb/JavaPackagingDraft
16:07:58 <sochotni> hopefully this will be less drastic then last meeting?
16:08:07 <sochotni> #chair akurtakov
16:08:07 <zodbot> Current chairs: akurtakov sochotni
16:08:15 <sochotni> I might need to leave a bit earlier
16:08:21 <sochotni> so just in case...
16:10:05 <sochotni> anyway, so I don't see any additions to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Java_SIG_2013-02-26
16:10:38 <neugens> I have a question
16:10:44 <sochotni> neugens: shoot
16:11:10 <neugens> sochotni, with JavaFX being open sourced more and more
16:11:15 <neugens> I will need to package it in fedora
16:11:29 <neugens> the current build system uses ant but upstream is moving to gradle
16:11:40 <neugens> I didn't find any guidelines or help though in our documentation
16:12:10 <sochotni> neugens: Noone created gradle guidelines or macros
16:12:27 <sochotni> it's one hell of an abomination TBT
16:12:33 <neugens> right
16:12:37 <neugens> but I guess we can't ignore it
16:12:44 <neugens> or we may want
16:12:56 <neugens> not sure, in either case I thought it's a good thing to bring up here
16:13:20 <sochotni> neugens: yeah, it is except it doesn't really affect our current guideline situation/switch
16:14:03 <sochotni> neugens: I believe it's close to impossible to support gradle in sensible way as a build tool. It's impossible to automate/standardize
16:14:25 <sochotni> there will most probably never be XMvn4Gradle
16:14:47 <akurtakov> that's what I think too - both maven and gradle don't get the basics - aka always online builds
16:14:56 <akurtakov> but with maven there are standards
16:15:04 <akurtakov> so one can switch to smth sensible
16:15:09 <akurtakov> which is impossible with gradle
16:15:19 <sochotni> anyway, I *really* don't want to get into tangents about gradle right now
16:15:27 <mizdebsk> (upstream maven does support offline mode and custom repos)
16:15:37 <sochotni> we can get back to it after we discuss the guideline changes
16:15:58 <neugens> ok, but please this is a quite important topic, so let's not forget
16:16:01 <akurtakov> neugens: please bring it again in openfloor
16:16:15 <neugens> akurtakov, sure, thanks!
16:16:18 <sochotni> I see some minor issues in draft..
16:16:22 <sochotni> i.e https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Msrb/JavaPackagingDraft#Apache_Maven
16:16:28 <sochotni> In Fedora 15 and newer, Maven 3 is used. Packages built using Maven ship with pom.xml files. They SHOULD contain common sections such as the following:
16:16:39 <sochotni> and then they list %mvn_build/%mvn_install macros
16:16:48 <sochotni> which are only available in F19
16:16:56 <sochotni> in sensible way
16:17:26 <sochotni> msrb: can I ask you to fix that up?
16:17:32 <akurtakov> we can drop pre Fedora 17 stuff
16:17:44 <msrb> sochotni, yep
16:17:57 <sochotni> #action msrb fix up Fedora versions in Apache Maven section
16:18:37 <vanaltj> I had commented on-list, and the only replies I saw (unless I missed) were from dwalluck
16:18:54 <sochotni> vanaltj: yeah, we had a busy week in Brno (100 guests for devconf)
16:19:14 <sochotni> vanaltj: take it as sort of an excuse from me for not being more proactive there
16:19:18 <vanaltj> I heard it was good times :)
16:19:23 <vanaltj> no worries.
16:20:17 <vanaltj> basically I was pointing out things that I thought might be confusing/conflicting especially for new packagers.
16:21:19 <jerboaa> not sure if that's relevant, but I think it would be helpful to reference a java packages review checklist
16:22:07 <sochotni> jerboaa: you mean http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Java_review_template ?
16:22:12 <sochotni> That's quite out of date
16:22:21 <jerboaa> it would give packagers a chance to go through that list before a review even starts
16:22:49 <jerboaa> even if it is, I see that popping up in quite some reviews
16:22:53 <sochotni> jerboaa: I'll update fedora-review to reflect these changes after guidelines are updated
16:22:54 <vanaltj> ah yeah template should be updated to match whatever new guidelines get approved.
16:22:58 <akurtakov> while I agree that guidelines should be detailed I start to be afraid of them becoming too long
16:23:25 <sochotni> akurtakov: we are planning more simplifications later on
16:23:33 <akurtakov> ok
16:23:35 <jerboaa> just a reference as a sanity check. no inclusion in guideline intended with my comment
16:23:37 <sochotni> but didn't want to mixing stuff
16:23:45 <vanaltj> part of the length is that there are currently some supported releases that need one way, but newest release needs new way.
16:24:32 <sochotni> related to that...i.e. documentation for add_maven_depmap should be kept out of guidelines
16:24:48 <sochotni> I will be preparing a documentation for Java packaging on Fedora
16:25:02 <sochotni> and there will also be javapackages-tools documentation
16:25:15 <sochotni> so we'll be able to just link to upstream tooling docs
16:25:22 <sochotni> instead of listing usage in guidelines
16:25:37 <sochotni> but that's not on the table currently
16:25:52 <sochotni> it will lead to shorter guidelines eventually
16:26:47 <akurtakov> my comment was supposed to be - let's keep refining the guidelines but not add new stuff (gradle/reviews/etc.) till we manage to reduce it
16:26:58 <sochotni> akurtakov: no argument there
16:27:11 <tradej> akurtakov: +1
16:27:59 <sochotni> vanaltj: I'll read those mails about concerns again and try to incorporate them in guidelines
16:28:05 <sochotni> or maybe msrb will? :-)
16:28:11 <jerboaa> ok. I'm fine with that
16:28:15 <vanaltj> cool, thx.
16:28:18 <sochotni> I remember BR: java one
16:29:09 <sochotni> so can I call a vote on it? I believe small fixing up here and there should not be a problem
16:29:20 <sochotni> meaning even after the vote
16:30:05 <akurtakov> fine by me
16:30:55 <akurtakov> aka vote on the ideas and actual diff announced on list prior to sending to FPC
16:31:14 <akurtakov> s/ideas/basic implementation/
16:31:15 <vanaltj> sounds fine.
16:31:20 <sochotni> ok, so voting for: New guidelines as present currently on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Msrb/JavaPackagingDraft
16:31:47 <sochotni> plus a few tweaks (supporting non-effective poms and few other things)
16:32:04 <sochotni> + incorporating few typo fixes
16:32:45 <sochotni> +1 from me
16:33:04 <tradej> +1 on guidelines, +1 on non-effective poms, +1 on typo fixes
16:33:12 <vanaltj> +1 here.
16:33:15 <akurtakov> +1
16:33:23 <msrb> +1
16:33:41 <rgrunber> +1 , sounds good.
16:33:41 <mizdebsk> +1
16:34:16 <sochotni> so far, +1: 7, -1:0, x:0
16:35:25 <sochotni> #accepted
16:35:31 <sochotni> I guess :-)
16:35:38 <sochotni> I have one more topic...
16:35:42 <sochotni> should be fairly quick
16:35:44 <sochotni> and is related
16:36:02 <sochotni> #topic Lifting FPC/Fesco temporary ban on XMvn conversions
16:36:24 <sochotni> akurtakov: I assume this is fine lift as well?
16:36:31 <sochotni> from your POV
16:36:35 <akurtakov> yes
16:36:57 <sochotni> OK, I'll bring it up tomorrow on FESCO meetings
16:37:21 <akurtakov> sochotni: let me know if you want me to comment somewhere (trac?)
16:37:30 <akurtakov> as I would not be available in the evening
16:37:39 <sochotni> akurtakov: I guess I can just link to meeting log
16:37:46 <akurtakov> works fine
16:37:54 <sochotni> OK
16:38:07 <sochotni> akurtakov: though feel free to add a comment to that FPC bug
16:38:37 <sochotni> #agreed ban can be lifted at FESCO/FPC discretion
16:38:57 <sochotni> #topic open floor
16:40:31 <sochotni> neugens: we *could* discuss gradle, but I am not sure what to make of it
16:40:44 <neugens> yeah
16:40:47 <neugens> I don't know either
16:40:55 <sochotni> basically just one package needs it currently
16:41:00 <neugens> I think this needs greater minds than me ;)
16:41:21 <sochotni> neugens: it might make sense to ask gradle maintainers (I believe mgoldmann & gil)
16:41:41 <sochotni> other that that I really try to avoid gradle so I have no useful info
16:42:01 <neugens> sochotni, ok
16:42:04 <akurtakov> sochotni: https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/257 commented and resolved by me
16:42:17 <mizdebsk> fedora has pretty new version of gradle packaged and afaik it's working
16:42:39 <neugens> mizdebsk, seems so
16:42:39 <mizdebsk> if maintainers are willing they can introduce guideline proposal
16:42:42 <akurtakov> neugens: we would need someone to try coming with a way to make gradle work offline in a reasonable way
16:42:50 <neugens> mizdebsk, on the other end I gave a look at hibernate
16:42:56 <neugens> which uses gradle afaik
16:43:01 <mizdebsk> yes it does
16:43:08 <mizdebsk> it's the only package using gradle
16:43:08 <neugens> they actually have maven pom in the sources
16:43:24 <neugens> I don't know if they generated them or recreated just for packaging
16:43:25 <akurtakov> neugens: closest example might be ivy - it's free style (more or less)
16:43:27 <sochotni> I gotta run, akurtakov has chair. Please do #endmeeting once your are done :-)
16:43:49 <akurtakov> neugens: but it's pretty easy to plug your own resolver
16:44:22 <akurtakov> neugens: if anything about gradle ends up on the guidelines such information would be needed
16:44:35 <akurtakov> if/when :)
16:44:38 <akurtakov> sochotni: sure
16:45:45 <neugens> akurtakov, sure
16:46:36 <akurtakov> neugens: there are some packages in fedora that keep updating the old build systems
16:46:58 <akurtakov> in order to not jump on gradle as it's not easy to find a pattern there
16:47:21 <neugens> akurtakov, if javafx will keep around the ant build
16:47:24 <neugens> I'll do the same
16:47:31 <neugens> but I think it's very unlikely
16:47:48 <neugens> once they finish the gradle experiments they will probably just keep this only
16:47:50 <akurtakov> neugens: I mean upstream don't keep it  but we keep it in fedora packages
16:48:06 <neugens> right but I don't think I have the amount of cycles for that
16:48:18 <neugens> (although I may have to end up with no alternatives)
16:48:28 <akurtakov> neugens: best approach for now might be starting gradle page on fedora wiki
16:48:43 <akurtakov> and communicate with others using gradle to document some basic usages
16:49:11 <akurtakov> till things get easier to apply to random gradle package
16:49:32 * tradej doesn't know anything about gradle, thus leaves. see you later, guys!
16:50:03 <akurtakov> neugens: we do smth similar for tycho as it's in heavy development upstream and hence not smth we can easily make guidelines for now http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Tycho
16:50:59 <akurtakov> neugens: sounds good ?
16:51:22 <neugens> akurtakov, yeah
16:51:51 <akurtakov> neugens: if there is anything ask on the mailing list
16:51:52 <neugens> I will do more experiments and contact the gradle maintainers
16:51:58 <neugens> and start the page
16:52:22 <neugens> I doubt we cna standardize but we may come with at least some best effort guidelines
16:53:06 <akurtakov> for me existing documentation is more important than being official
16:53:27 <akurtakov> aka better to have unoffical docs than none :)
16:53:44 <akurtakov> done with gradle?
16:54:36 <neugens> seems so, yes
16:54:52 <neugens> if I have further questions I'll ask in list or during next meetings
16:55:09 <akurtakov> anything else ?
16:55:24 <akurtakov> or the meeting is going to its end?
16:57:04 <akurtakov> #endmeeting