20:00:16 <rbergeron> #startmeeting Fedora Marketing
20:00:16 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Aug 24 20:00:16 2010 UTC.  The chair is rbergeron. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:00:16 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:00:21 <rbergeron> #meetingname marketing meeting
20:00:21 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'marketing_meeting'
20:00:32 <rbergeron> #topic Roll Call
20:00:43 * jsmith is here
20:00:45 * stickster 
20:01:09 * rbergeron notes that she is still thinking we need a new meeting time
20:01:26 <rbergeron> okay. well....
20:01:33 <rbergeron> #agenda
20:01:37 <rbergeron> no, no
20:01:39 <rbergeron> #topic Agenda
20:01:43 <rbergeron> #chair stickster jsmith
20:01:43 <zodbot> Current chairs: jsmith rbergeron stickster
20:02:04 <rbergeron> Agenda Item for today is to figure out what to do about our slogan name situation.
20:02:24 <rbergeron> #info Had some conflicts about the name chosen last week; need to make some decisions.
20:02:47 * stickster nods
20:02:49 <jsmith> As I see it, we have three options
20:02:52 <rbergeron> soo
20:02:59 <rbergeron> #topic Release Slogan: what to do?
20:03:03 <jsmith> 1) Pick a new slogan for F14
20:03:18 <jsmith> 2) After F14, evaluate whether or not to continue picking a slogan for each release
20:03:26 <jsmith> 3) Abandon slogans altogether now
20:03:38 <jsmith> Thoughts?
20:04:14 <rbergeron> I think that the release slogan process is something that is (normally) a fun, engaging activity for hte community - low effort, but something that is potentially very important to each release.
20:04:51 <rbergeron> I personally don't liek the idea of abandoning it, but at the same time, if we're not getting any use out of it, or not seeing any .... value in it, then we shouldn't do it just because it's a feel-good activity.
20:05:19 <rbergeron> I don't know that the slogan is used in very many places, either, though it does pick up a bit of press when it's announced.
20:05:24 <stickster> I agree with what rbergeron said re: fun/engaging.  It's important to the extent that it becomes part of the website and we sometimes refer (maybe obliquely) to the slogan elsewhere.
20:05:47 <rbergeron> I'd prefer to go with option #1, in short :)
20:05:49 <stickster> But I would also say that, given what we learned at the Marketing FAD this past spring, changing a slogan every 6 months may not be the best tactic
20:06:23 <stickster> rbergeron: Remember how cgrams talked to us about repetition, and simplifying + amplifying?
20:06:53 * rbergeron nods.
20:06:59 <rbergeron> I agree.
20:07:00 <jsmith> Right... does a changing two or three words slogan get us more traction?
20:07:24 <rbergeron> hi leoboulton!
20:07:24 <stickster> There's one more consideration that I've been thinking about quite a bit, which is the website redesign that mizmo and others are working on for the front page.
20:07:30 <rbergeron> stickster: I know... oh, you just said it.
20:07:36 <rbergeron> or you're getting there.
20:07:38 <leoboulton> Hi rbergeron and all
20:08:12 <stickster> We may not want to complicate that design with a top-level slogan message that changes, and then has to be updated, every 6 months
20:08:18 * rbergeron just ate a poptart that she is thinking was not so kosher
20:08:38 <rbergeron> stickster: so, are you thinking - pick a more permanent slogan?
20:08:39 <stickster> For instance, we have a message (4 Foundations) that has been around for quite a while now, and I'm starting to see people refer to it when they write up Fedora in independent articles and blogs
20:08:48 * rbergeron nods
20:09:20 <stickster> rbergeron: I guess what I'm thinking is, maybe simplify + amplify = focus on the message that has traction and use it more consistently in more places
20:09:42 * rbergeron notes that she would not be surprised if some people think our slogan is "freedom, friends, features, first"
20:09:53 <leoboulton> * nods
20:09:55 * stickster is not trying to force this down anyone's throat, just trying to integrate what I took away from Marketing FAD into what we think about on the team
20:10:00 <stickster> rbergeron: I wouldn't either.
20:10:06 <stickster> And I would say that's a *good* thing
20:10:06 <rbergeron> no, i totally agree.
20:10:28 <leoboulton> I agree with you rbergeron, I know I thought that was a deeper slogan: "freedom, friends, features, first"
20:10:32 <rbergeron> We've been very consistent there.
20:10:42 <leoboulton> It's maybe more like a moto... right?
20:10:59 <stickster> Whether you call it a slogan or a motto, it's definitely a *message*
20:10:59 <leoboulton> but then realized that it is not a "release slogan"
20:11:54 <rbergeron> I don't nkow that having a release slogan, still, would conflict with that; i don't necessarily see it as something that has to be front and center on the webpage. A more generalized slogan, yes, but then we have too many slogans.
20:11:58 <stickster> And I think a consistent message is important.  Whether we have a release-specific slogan, to me, is less important as long as it doesn't leave a void. And I don't think it does, which says to me it's expendable.
20:12:32 * stickster has said everything he thinks he had on his mind about this topic.
20:12:46 <rbergeron> jsmith: any thoughts?
20:13:14 <jsmith> I tend to lean toward "expendable", though I was hoping to make the long-term decision independent of the F14 decision
20:13:24 * jsmith hates forcing people to make decisions in a rush
20:13:44 <jsmith> I don't know of any viable suggestions for an F14 slogan that really fit the "emerge" theme
20:14:05 * jsmith hasn't caught up on the mail list yet, though
20:15:34 <leoboulton> Simple question, I... are we going with the release slogan, or considering
20:15:41 * rbergeron nods
20:16:00 * rbergeron hasn't really had any flashes of brilliance.
20:16:07 <leoboulton> I am lost. Not sure if we are discussing to go with a release slogan or not.... or just deciding which one is going to be the release slogan
20:16:09 <stickster> I saw only one additional slogan proposed that was related to the idea of emergence and met the guidelines, Neville's suggestion of "Rise Up."  The rest didn't meet one or more of the guidelines or seemed disconnected.
20:16:22 * rbergeron also notes that a lot of the suggestions we've had don't really fit with the call the action idea either, and that may be a lack of reinforcement / description.
20:16:27 <rbergeron> though it's clearly spelled out on the website.
20:16:28 <jsmith> stickster: I'm afraid that "Rise up" is used too many other places
20:16:35 <stickster> jsmith: That's what I was afraid of, too.
20:17:10 <jsmith> Anyhoo -- it's not like this is set in stone.
20:17:22 <rbergeron> that's what i was thinking, also, though i couldn't find anything concretely when googling
20:17:25 <jsmith> If we want to revisit it later and start doing changing slogans again, we can.
20:17:36 <leoboulton> rgergeron: sorry, but I have to leave early today. Got another meeting to attend.
20:17:38 <stickster> leoboulton: Sorry, jsmith said earlier -- we're trying to decide whether we should have one or not for F14.  If we don't have any additional suggestions that are worthy, it's going to be hard to have one for F14.  What I'm saying is that I'm doubting the long-term value of a slogan in general
20:18:21 <stickster> rbergeron: We seem to have the same issues with many suggestions each release, ever since we started doing this in... Fedora 8 or 9?
20:18:21 <leoboulton> sitckster: I understand.
20:18:28 * rbergeron feels like abandoning the slogan idea -after- we've called out to the community - and had participation and suggestions - seems... well, i'm not sure what the word is.
20:18:38 <rbergeron> stickster: yes, but we've always had a few good standouts.
20:18:42 <stickster> Like a worse failure?
20:18:45 <stickster> rbergeron: Very true
20:19:03 <stickster> rbergeron: Until now, I suppose
20:19:07 <rbergeron> stickster: I suppose "fail faster" is something we could embrace here.
20:19:11 <stickster> Or rather, "few" wasn't enough.
20:19:27 <rbergeron> I think we just had a difficult theme. Good for visuals, not so hot for words.
20:19:48 <jsmith> Right...
20:19:56 <stickster> rbergeron: And I think it's a risk we'll run over time, that themes like that will recur.
20:19:59 <jsmith> ... which is why I was saying that we can revisit it later
20:20:18 <rbergeron> Given the multilingual nature of the community, i don't think we should expect that everyone will understand the concepts of "call to action" and so forth.
20:20:19 <jsmith> If we come to F19 and realize "Oh, this would be the perfect slogan", then we can do that
20:20:57 <stickster> Let me propose this -- we could talk to mizmo about the web redesign, and find out if not having a slogan will cause her a specific heartburn.
20:21:00 <rbergeron> this is true.
20:21:23 <rbergeron> Stickster: or if she wants to investigate the concept of a long-term slogan.
20:21:34 <stickster> We might find out that it's exactly the opposite (converse?).. that a changing message makes things more difficult.
20:21:50 <stickster> rbergeron: Good point.
20:22:05 <rbergeron> which I know you guys have discussed on and off anyhow.
20:22:18 <rbergeron> And I think would be an excellent community-builder as well. :)
20:22:39 <stickster> Since the release-specific slogan's primary use was on the front page, maybe our time is better spent on making sure the front page message is consistent for many releases.
20:22:50 <stickster> Whether that's 4 Foundations or something else.
20:23:04 <jsmith> stickster: I completely agree
20:23:11 <jsmith> Let's focus on the core message of Fedora
20:23:21 * rbergeron nods
20:23:43 * stickster notes that in the mockups, what's on the top banner under the logo is just filler text and always has been. "Free your desktop" was not intended to be set in stone, we just needed something there to do the visualizations.
20:24:03 * rbergeron nods
20:24:07 <stickster> So jsmith, the slogan is your call, what's decided?
20:24:08 <rbergeron> yup.
20:24:31 <jsmith> I say we scrap the changing slogan
20:25:07 <jsmith> If for no other reason, I'd rather we focused our energies elsewhere
20:25:58 <rbergeron> okay then.
20:26:22 <rbergeron> #agreed Skipping slogan for F14; may revisit in the future, or focus on selecting a long-term slogan.
20:26:47 <rbergeron> #action stickster to talk to mizmo about lack of slogan on website, or thinking about long-term slogans.
20:28:01 <rbergeron> does that work?
20:28:09 <jsmith> Works for me
20:28:12 <rbergeron> okay.
20:28:12 <stickster> +1
20:28:17 <rbergeron> #topic Feature Profiles
20:28:18 * stickster writes that email
20:28:22 <rbergeron> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-14/f-14-marketing-tasks.html
20:28:38 <rbergeron> Since, apparently, I was not on the ball last week - we're supposed to start picking some feature profiles to do for this release.
20:28:41 <rbergeron> :D
20:28:44 <rbergeron> Starting last week.
20:28:55 <rbergeron> I think we were just a bit overloaded with the slogan situation.
20:29:03 * rbergeron pulls up some webpage
20:29:05 <jsmith> Aye...
20:29:08 <rbergeron> ...sss....
20:29:19 <stickster> cream?
20:29:38 <stickster> *ba-DUM-bum"
20:30:02 <stickster> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-14/f-14-marketing-tasks.html
20:30:02 * rbergeron tries to follow stickster on that one and is thinkng something but isn't sure that that's where that came from
20:30:11 <rbergeron> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Feature_profiles_SOP
20:30:16 <stickster> rbergeron: phonetics joke... "Aye + sssss + cream"
20:30:26 * stickster stops now.
20:30:48 <rbergeron> lol
20:30:50 <rbergeron> wow
20:30:53 * rbergeron is laughing really hard
20:30:54 <rbergeron> okay
20:31:08 <rbergeron> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FeatureList
20:31:24 <rbergeron> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_14_talking_points
20:32:00 <rbergeron> #info Feature Profiles are typically interviews conducted and stories written on specific features off of feature list and/or Talking Points.
20:32:18 <rbergeron> #info The marketing team typically writes 3 - 5 feature profiles for each release.
20:32:49 <rbergeron> So the goal here is to at least find a few that we think are story-worthy, and then hopefully get some volunteers either in the meeting, or offline afterwards, to take ownership.
20:33:06 <stickster> rbergeron: In the past we've also coordinated this somewhat with the video content that Red Hat's Creative team helps us with
20:33:11 <rbergeron> indeed.
20:33:29 <rbergeron> Not for every feature, but for those that ... it is convenient for. :)
20:33:34 <stickster> #info Right now the Creative team video lineup includes systemd and EC2
20:34:00 <rbergeron> oh really?
20:34:02 <rbergeron> what are they doing on ec2
20:34:25 <stickster> rbergeron: Not sure yet, I sent some mail to Justin Forbes to ask what we can talk about :-D
20:34:59 <stickster> rbergeron: Our talking points say we'll have images for EC2 for F14, on or about release date, is that still correct?
20:35:06 <rbergeron> lol
20:35:13 * stickster thinks this is offtopic for Marketing and will hit rbergeron up later :-)
20:35:14 <rbergeron> stickster: yes, and we should have some F13 out before then.
20:35:55 <stickster> That would make a great video, and it's a talking point -- which means we have all the makings of a good candidate for a feature profile :-)
20:35:57 <rbergeron> So - aside from those two - I think that the Memory Debugging Tools / gdb-heap could be an interesting feature profile that might be easily funneled into channels that hit developer eyeballs.
20:36:04 <stickster> rbergeron: +1 that, big-time.
20:36:15 <rbergeron> Spice.
20:36:27 <rbergeron> .... would be a very good one as well, IMO
20:36:50 <stickster> I'm on the fence about that -- *only* because we're premiering a framework without many userspace tools completed (like libvirt/virt-manager integration)
20:37:07 <stickster> I think this would make a much better feature profile for F15, and it's on track for completion by then
20:37:09 <rbergeron> hrmmm
20:37:38 <rbergeron> ipmiutil might be interesting, particularly if we could actually have a video wher epeople demonstrated how ipmi can work - for things like remote power, etc.
20:37:58 <rbergeron> If someone has access to equipment to do so ;)
20:38:22 <rbergeron> I think about how much trouble we had even describing it to each other - but how easy it would be to explain if one could actually see it in action.
20:39:21 <stickster> rbergeron: Do we have anyone who's put up a hand to do a feature profile?
20:39:23 * rbergeron thinks it could also be cool to do a "world of languages" tour and do some mini-profiles on perl, python, rakudo, D, etc.
20:39:33 <rbergeron> well, my hand is always up here. ;)
20:39:35 <stickster> Oooh, that's a pretty cool idea.
20:39:39 * stickster can do one
20:39:56 <stickster> I think it's safe to say jsmith can do one too :-)
20:39:58 <rbergeron> I think we'd be silly to not capitalize on meego as well :)
20:40:12 <rbergeron> stickster: what is the timeline for the rht videos?
20:40:32 <stickster> rbergeron: The videos generally come out staggered about a week or so apart, up to release day
20:40:53 <stickster> So let's say, first video the first week in October (just to leave ourselves wiggle room)
20:40:55 <rbergeron> I mean - when are they starting doing them :)
20:41:00 <stickster> rbergeron: Already started planning
20:41:07 <rbergeron> sweet.
20:41:17 <rbergeron> So - are you coordinating that, or is jsmith?
20:41:19 <stickster> #info Creative team will probably be in Westford shooting in < 2 weeks
20:41:23 <stickster> rbergeron: Both of us
20:41:36 <rbergeron> stickster: FYI - jforbes is in texas, I believe
20:41:43 <rbergeron> for the EC2 video.
20:41:56 <stickster> rbergeron: Right -- I didn't realize that, but sent him some email looking for the name of someone in BOS who could participate in a video shoot.
20:42:16 <rbergeron> ahh
20:42:35 <rbergeron> okay!
20:42:57 <rbergeron> So - what do we have so far on a list?
20:43:08 <stickster> * EC2
20:43:10 <stickster> * systemd
20:43:17 <rbergeron> (both videos)
20:43:32 <rbergeron> * World O'Languages Tour featuring perl, python, rakudo, D, etc.
20:43:37 <rbergeron> (these re not set in stone, just suggestions.)
20:43:58 <stickster> Right, and we could do what we did in previous releases, which is to link the press blog entry that has the videos to a URL where we have the big text interview and surrounding story.
20:43:58 <rbergeron> * Memory Debugging Tools / gdb-heap
20:44:03 * rbergeron nods
20:44:39 <stickster> * MeeGo maybe?
20:44:43 <rbergeron> * ipmiutil maybe?
20:45:05 <rbergeron> I think that covers what we just listed.
20:45:05 <stickster> I think the debugging stuff is super-strong.
20:45:16 <rbergeron> libjpeg-turbo might be interesting too
20:45:18 <rbergeron> I do too.
20:45:21 <rbergeron> Good stuff there
20:45:39 * rbergeron notes that when her sig0 raises his eyebrows about new programming tools and looks interested it's probably a good thing :)
20:46:38 * rbergeron really isn't sure what she could volunteer for here - I'll sign up for anything, since a lot of it is over my head and I'll have to do some serious reading up. Stickster, jsmith, did you have any preferences?
20:47:00 <stickster> The notting in me says that debugging stuff is a good, meaty interview. I'm concerned that MeeGo isn't because we're really just including someone else's work. But perhaps what we could do instead is an interview with Peter Robinson about moving from Moblin to MeeGo, and what he sees going on upstream.
20:47:33 <rbergeron> stickster: I think that's an excellent idea.
20:47:45 <stickster> Similarly, a pile of languages doesn't seem as hard hitting as if we had a super-tightly integrated development platform to offer
20:48:03 <stickster> Why don't we try for those four then?
20:48:19 <stickster> ec2 + systemd + debugging tools + mini sig stuff ?
20:48:28 <jsmith> stickster: Interviewing Peter is going to be tough though, isn't it?
20:48:32 <stickster> How so?
20:48:40 <jsmith> Isn't he in Europe?
20:48:46 * jsmith thinks he's in the UK
20:48:50 <rbergeron> oh, we regularly fly people over there to do interviews in person.
20:48:54 <rbergeron> I'd be happyt o go.
20:48:55 <rbergeron> :D
20:48:56 <stickster> hahaha
20:48:58 <rbergeron> no no, i kid
20:49:07 <stickster> Ah -- jsmith, just FYI these are feature profiles which are usually done in text interviews via email
20:49:13 <rbergeron> we usually do interviews over IRC, or even in email.
20:49:21 <jsmith> stickster: Gotcha -- I was thinking video for some reason
20:49:36 <stickster> Different animals from the videos that Creative shoots -- but we *often* cover in a text interview the same feature that Creative is shooting for their video
20:49:44 * jsmith is juggling too many thoughts
20:49:58 <stickster> Then the Red Hat press blog entry where the video is published will also link to a Fedora URL where we have the text interview to go with the video.
20:50:10 <stickster> jsmith: Let me find you an example from F14
20:50:12 <stickster> *F13
20:50:32 * jsmith still has so much to learn
20:50:56 <rbergeron> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F13_feature_profiles
20:51:02 <rbergeron> oh, you'er looking for a video.
20:51:30 <stickster> #link http://press.redhat.com/2010/04/27/fedora-13-spotlight-feature-exploring-new-frontiers-of-python-development/ <-- Red Hat press blog entry, with  interview page linked in paragraph 5
20:51:45 <rbergeron> http://press.redhat.com/2010/05/10/making-3d-free-for-innovation-fedora-13-graphics-drivers/
20:51:57 <stickster> jsmith: That should make it clearer. Sorry, we should have led in with more information for you about in-depth feature profiles :-)
20:52:22 <stickster> jsmith: The Fedora wiki page about them that Robyn linked earlier also explains what they are and how they're currently done.
20:52:36 * jsmith never saw those feature profiles before
20:52:41 <jsmith> How could I have been so blind?
20:52:50 <stickster> jsmith: That means we can improve the way we do them :-)
20:53:06 <stickster> I imagine since we have better social networking now we can spread these further.
20:53:09 * jsmith still doesn't know what jsmith doesn't know
20:53:15 <stickster> rbergeron: How are we doing on time, and what's left to #action here?
20:53:17 * rbergeron nods
20:53:34 <rbergeron> If you or jsmith want to volunteer for any of the above noted stories, feel free.
20:53:42 <stickster> rbergeron: I'll take systemd
20:53:50 <jsmith> I'll take mini sig stuff
20:53:54 <stickster> rbergeron: Should I assume you'll try to do EC2?
20:54:08 * jsmith is willing to help with EC2 stuff if rbergeron doesn't want it
20:54:10 <rbergeron> #agreed EC2, systemd, debugging tools, and mini-sig for Feature Profiles.
20:54:17 <rbergeron> I'll take it.
20:54:29 <jsmith> OK.
20:54:29 <rbergeron> #action stickster to do FP on systemd
20:54:31 <stickster> rbergeron: We should get an additional volunteer involved to take the Mini SIG one.
20:54:41 <rbergeron> #action jsmith to do FP on mini-sig.
20:54:48 <rbergeron> #action rbergeron to do EC2
20:55:04 <rbergeron> stickster: you finding that additional volunteer for me? :)
20:55:29 <rbergeron> #action rbergeron to advertise in blog / mailing list for volunteers for debugging tools FP.
20:55:31 <stickster> rbergeron: I'll email the list once the minutes are out -- do you copy minutes to the email you send?
20:55:35 <stickster> Oh, never mind
20:55:37 <rbergeron> Yes.
20:55:49 * stickster will be happy to help bang the drum :-)
20:56:15 <rbergeron> #action rbergeron stickster to collectively look for mini-sig FP additional volunteers
20:56:43 * rbergeron has nothing else, offhand.
20:57:21 <rbergeron> stickster: did i cover all the feature profile stuff? I think we got it all there.
20:57:27 <stickster> rbergeron: One more thing
20:57:35 <rbergeron> take it away! :)
20:58:13 <stickster> #info There is a chance that systemd may get yanked from F14 depending on passing criteria for acceptance; FESCo working on this now
20:58:32 <rbergeron> oh.
20:58:36 <stickster> #action stickster will take mini SIG FP if systemd gets yanked from F14
20:58:48 * stickster never shirks!
20:59:12 <stickster> eof
20:59:47 <rbergeron> okay then!
20:59:52 <rbergeron> anything else?
21:00:08 * jsmith has nothing further to add
21:00:16 <rbergeron> alrighty.
21:00:21 <rbergeron> Thanks for coming :)
21:00:25 <rbergeron> #endmeeting