15:01:45 #startmeeting modularity wg 15:01:45 Meeting started Thu Apr 14 15:01:45 2016 UTC. The chair is langdon. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 15:01:45 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 15:01:45 The meeting name has been set to 'modularity_wg' 15:02:07 * threebean is here 15:02:08 #topic roll call 15:02:12 .hello psabata 15:02:13 contyk: psabata 'Petr Šabata' 15:02:14 .hello langdon 15:02:15 langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' 15:02:16 .hello yselkowitz 15:02:18 .hello sct 15:02:18 yselkowitz: yselkowitz 'Yaakov Selkowitz' 15:02:19 hola 15:02:21 .hello mjw 15:02:21 sct: sct 'Stephen Tweedie' 15:02:22 .hello nphilipp 15:02:24 mjw: mjw 'Mark Wielaard' 15:02:27 nilsph: nphilipp 'Nils Philippsen' 15:02:29 hi everyone.. please say hi to zodbot! :) 15:02:43 well.. to yourself really, i suppose 15:02:44 * nilsph looks in mirror... 15:02:50 .hello nphilipp 15:02:51 nils: nphilipp 'Nils Philippsen' 15:03:08 .hello james 15:03:09 geppetto: james 'James Antill' 15:03:10 .hello jkurik 15:03:12 jkurik: jkurik 'Jan Kurik' 15:03:33 .hello blc 15:03:37 bconoboy: blc 'Brendan Conoboy' 15:03:53 ok.. 30s until next topic 15:04:23 #topic governance approval 15:04:27 close enough 15:04:43 ok.. so i would like to get any feedback anyone has on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Modularity_Working_Group/Governance_Charter 15:05:11 * langdon checks to see if there was any emailed feedback 15:05:19 #link Anybody have feedback on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Modularity_Working_Group/Governance_Charter ? 15:05:35 #chair bconoboy 15:05:35 Current chairs: bconoboy langdon 15:05:43 #link Anybody have feedback on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Modularity_Working_Group/Governance_Charter ? 15:05:46 cause he is apparently better at it than me :) 15:05:47 tnx langdon 15:06:24 ok.. nothing in the emails.. 15:06:28 anybody here? 15:06:33 mattdm, did you have a comment? 15:06:41 * lkocman is here 15:07:04 sorry.. rephrasing.. anyone in channel/meeting have comments on the charter/governance? 15:07:08 charter looks fine here. +1 on it still. 15:07:17 the same, +1 15:07:43 cool.. should we call for a formal vote? 15:07:46 langdon: I think it makes sense to start with it- nobody has any serious issues and we won't really know if it's effective until we've tried it out 15:07:46 langdon: I was just thinking about my self to be kind of auxiliary member, to make sure we are synchronized with standard Fedora releases 15:07:56 bconoboy, +1 15:08:02 formal vote by whom? 15:08:03 +1 15:08:05 langdon: does it make sense to you ? 15:08:21 +1 15:08:38 yselkowitz, the peeps in the meeting.. once we finalize the "voting members" we will ask those people.. that should be done by next wg meeting (deadline is monday IIRC) 15:09:04 jkurik, i like your idea.. should we add that "role" to the charter? 15:09:50 jkurik, like could you add a paragraph under "membership" or something that says "to align with releases this person is an auxilary voting member" or somehting? 15:09:57 +1 15:10:12 langdon: I do not have exact vision how this role should be formalized, however we can start "some how" and will see 15:10:22 jkurik, righto 15:10:25 langdon: yes, i will add the paragraph 15:10:28 ok.. so.. i think i am hearing #agreed .. 15:10:30 I have no experience with fedora working groups. If you feel this is a good structure I it probably is :) 15:10:49 mjw, i make mattdm do my "process" tihnking for me :) 15:10:56 The only thing I will probably ignore is the google+ stuff 15:10:58 yeah, let's go with it and revise later if we think its necessary. 15:11:17 mattdm knows process, so good enough for me 15:11:38 mjw, we are VERY much looking for an alt to the google stuff.. but we have no other ideas for recorded/making-public 15:11:45 ok.. 15:12:03 #agreed governance charter accepted for modularity working group 15:12:24 #info everyone in the meeting pats each other on the back 15:12:41 ok.. move on? any other comments? 15:12:45 giving 30s 15:12:50 * nils distributes shoulder ointment 15:12:56 nils, :) 15:13:07 #topic minor changes to infrastructure 15:14:05 so.. thanks to threebean and jkaluza we now have a "new" (just like the old) taiga board.. but it is not buried under my name.. still working on transferring all info over.. but should be official/complete by monday 15:14:21 hopefully, by monday/tuesday the existing board will also redirect to the new board 15:14:29 if not we will add a prominent link 15:14:44 #info new board is http://taiga.fedorainfracloud.org/project/modularity/kanban 15:14:52 #undo 15:14:52 Removing item from minutes: INFO by langdon at 15:14:44 : new board is http://taiga.fedorainfracloud.org/project/modularity/kanban 15:14:55 #info new board is http://taiga.fedorainfracloud.org/project/modularity 15:15:04 #undo 15:15:04 Removing item from minutes: INFO by langdon at 15:14:55 : new board is http://taiga.fedorainfracloud.org/project/modularity 15:15:11 #link new board is http://taiga.fedorainfracloud.org/project/modularity 15:15:25 bconoboy, ?? 15:15:33 langdon: #link is better than #info 15:15:40 bconoboy, ahh i see 15:15:43 any questions? 15:16:03 nils also has been working on onboarding docs.. and with commops with decause to make it official... 15:16:11 nils, can you elaborate? provide links? 15:16:13 #info Development, documentaiton, etc that the modularity team is doing and/or contemplating is stored on this board 15:16:14 #chair nils 15:16:14 Current chairs: bconoboy langdon nils 15:16:25 me a chair, oh boy... 15:16:37 it's not much, so her egoes 15:16:40 *here goes 15:17:11 Most of the stuff I did happened here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Modularization/Getting_involved 15:17:37 should #link that? 15:17:45 Part of this is a summary blurb included from https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Modularization so people like me are not totally disoriented what this is all about. 15:17:48 #link want to get involved? check out https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Modularization/Getting_involved 15:17:49 yselkowitz: yeah maybe 15:17:57 hence my comment about me chairing 15:18:01 :-) 15:18:11 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Modularization 15:18:19 nils, bconoboy or i will take care of it for you.. 15:18:22 keep going .. 15:18:24 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Modularization/Getting_involved 15:18:34 wrong order, doesn't matter 15:18:59 nils: it looks like you’ve dropped reference to my prototypes page 15:19:14 re 15:19:38 lkocman: maybe, I don't remember, if I did, sorry :o) 15:19:56 nils: I was wondering why nobody tested anything that I posted ... 15:20:06 lkocman, it was spite i am sure ;) 15:20:12 hehe 15:20:15 yeah I'm big with spite :) 15:20:19 not 15:20:22 lkocman, link? and we can put it in the minutes? 15:20:26 sure 15:20:32 check history of page :-P 15:20:42 lkocman: which one, getting involved or the main page? 15:20:43 * langdon notes reading not his strong suit 15:20:52 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Modularity_Working_Group#Tooling_Prototypes 15:21:05 you can still get there trough Modularity Working Group 15:21:10 perhaps that’s sufficient 15:21:18 * langdon also hopes decause's review will help us get this more organized 15:21:25 yup 15:21:26 yup 15:21:28 nils, do you have a link to hte ticket? 15:21:30 sorry, have to go for now (would love to stay, but have to pick up the children) 15:21:30 that’s why we do this I guess 15:21:35 langdon: I was getting to that 15:21:36 :D 15:21:50 mjw, thanks for coming.. say hi to the kids! :) 15:22:17 lkocman: I'll add it back when I find out from where I deleted it ;) 15:22:24 where was I... 15:22:36 #link check out the prototype for building modules based on pungi: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Modularity_Working_Group#Tooling_Prototypes 15:22:44 ...then langdon hooked me up with decause, gave me an almost finished ticket text which I finished and dropped of with decause/CommOps 15:22:55 *off 15:22:56 nils: perhaps let’s agree on what should be the easy path for user 15:23:04 nils: and simply link it where it makes biggest sense 15:23:05 lkocman: yeah 15:23:13 nils: +1 15:23:17 #topic onboarding 15:23:28 #info actually changed a few minutes ago.. 15:23:51 how about nils finish convo with ticket.. then discuss "onboarding path"? 15:23:57 voila, the ticket: 15:24:02 or maybe add that to agenda for next meeting? 15:24:03 #link https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-commops/ticket/69 15:24:27 I joined there IRC meeting on Tuesday and it was much more frantic than ours :) 15:24:31 *their 15:24:34 ha 15:24:40 frenetic perhaps? 15:24:45 frenetic, yes 15:25:06 nils, any other comments? 15:25:11 langdon: here I'm still following, there... not so much ;) 15:25:16 no, that was it from my side 15:25:21 ok.. 15:25:33 worth talking about "onboarding path" here? 15:26:13 good question. 15:27:01 ok.. if no one wants to chime in, i recommend we postpone it to a future meeting... and we can make decause attend and help :) 15:27:09 langdon: you mean in terms of "step one, two, three" to make someone a contributor? 15:27:26 #topic onboarding path 15:28:12 nils, i meant more like "what is the landing page for people" .. is the page different depending on what a person wants to "do" with modularity? how does someone know where to start.. like what page to start with.. 15:28:21 aaaah 15:28:21 then moving on to .. how does one contribute 15:28:32 looking at this too much from my lens 15:28:51 *through 15:28:56 nils, correct me if i am wrong.. but i see the onboarding doc you wrote as "i want to be a contributor, how do i start" 15:29:13 basically 15:29:26 ok.. so let's table this till next time.. 15:29:40 #action langdon to add "onboarding path" to a future wg meeting 15:29:46 and we probably need to extend this to cover other "use cases" 15:30:31 #info we should have an onboarding path for 1) contributor 2) wants to know whats up 3) wants to know how it will effect their lives 15:30:37 any others? 15:31:12 bconoboy, i think you have a comment! :) 15:31:16 langdon: I’m thinking of devops 15:31:22 langdon: a person who runs this on infra 15:31:23 lkocman, ahh how so? 15:31:26 I do? 15:31:37 bconoboy, wanted someone other than me talking :) 15:31:45 devops as e.g. dgilmore or perobins 15:31:47 lkocman is doing it :-) 15:31:52 I know 15:32:02 I’m the bad influence 15:32:17 4) people who will get his life ruined (devops) 15:32:18 lkocman, ok.. so.. like running modularity-stuff in fedora-infra? or like someone consuming modules in their "data center" ? or both? 15:32:28 I’d say fedora-infra 15:32:33 The trouble with onboarding is that you actually have to know what you're doing before you can suggest to people where they fit in 15:32:44 fedora-infra or similar sounds good nuff 15:32:54 #info onboarding path should also include impact on fedora-infra/rel-eng/etc 15:32:55 bconoboy++ 15:32:55 nils: Karma for blc changed to 1 (for the f23 release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 15:32:56 What you can do is ask people what they're interested in and use that as an indicator of what you can do 15:33:04 .. together 15:33:18 dgilmore: yo! are you for it? 15:33:22 maybe threebean can add modularity to "what can i do for fedora" :) 15:33:35 sure, easy peasy. 15:33:56 * langdon mutters if we had some clean content to provide... 15:34:26 ok.. moving on? although agenda is not terribly fixed today.. so no real rush 15:34:51 #topic reviewing other progress 15:35:02 #undo 15:35:02 Removing item from minutes: 15:35:10 #topic update on membership 15:35:16 actually one quick thing.. 15:35:38 #info reminder that nominations are due by Apr. 18th 15:36:08 i will have the names selected/sent to mailing list (assuming people accept) before the next WG meeting 15:36:16 any comments / concerns? 15:36:43 #topic reviewing other progress 15:37:24 contyk, do you want to give a brief overview of the metadata stuff? in advance of your email to the ML? 15:37:30 sure 15:38:07 so I've prepared the first draft of the module metadata, based on data from sct and lkocman 15:38:20 I've also made a library to easy working with it 15:38:28 contyk, what is the metadata "for"? 15:38:57 it defines a module -- its name, version, extra reference links, its dependencies and packages in it 15:39:16 more stuff can be added later, if people come up with something 15:39:18 There are lots of different things we can use it for 15:39:25 so essentially what createrepo does for a yum repository? 15:39:27 we need it for package build, for module build 15:39:31 cool.. just wanted people to provide context 15:39:35 for enabling and installing a module 15:39:41 for enabling module dependencies 15:39:43 *wanted to provide people context 15:39:51 for documenting what's the stable API and what's internal detail 15:39:54 also, it's meant to be changed as it passes through various parts of the build and distribution process 15:39:57 I like jwb's summary 15:40:13 and also for long-term maintenance --- documenting who owns the module, why components were added etc 15:40:23 so we can look at it years later and figure out what is still needed 15:40:36 all sorts of use cases, and I expect we'll find more as we go 15:40:39 oh, also --- 15:41:02 running a module; compiling against a module (ie. -devel); and debugging a module (debuginfo etc) all potentially require different content 15:41:09 so that's also stuff we can mark in the module metadata. 15:41:12 * langdon is still kinda terrible at doing #topic at the right time 15:41:29 the current draft is available at https://pagure.io/fm-metadata 15:41:39 sct: I’m bit afraid that compiling is out of topic of the fm-metadata 15:41:39 #info On the subject of metadata.... 15:41:50 #link the first metadata draft https://pagure.io/fm-metadata 15:41:52 jwb, so.. i would say "yes" but .. probably more elaborate and less focused on just what tooling needs.. also what humans might need 15:42:03 sct: I’d keep it purely as the content of module information 15:42:20 sct: not a cookbook how to build individual rpms against such module i 15:42:25 #link Draft of metadata current thinking is at https://pagure.io/fm-metadata 15:42:25 lkocman: That's OK, we need a place to pass through metadata that's only of interest to the end user --- it doesn't have to be meaningful to the build tooling 15:42:27 will a #link by a non-chair appear in the minutes? 15:42:28 langdon: right. it's an analogy that people can use to ease into it. they need a familiar context to start from 15:42:34 sct: so you’re thinkning of using it as comps groups in brew build tag right? 15:42:54 #info This is the combined work for contyk, sct, lkocman 15:42:54 bconoboy covered it anyway 15:43:11 langdon: because sct and lkocman and company have been discussing this for a long time, and some of the reasoning and details for things are obvious to them but won't be familiar to anyone else :) 15:43:31 something worth info is that fm-metadata is currently input + configuration for pungi-gather (depsolver) 15:43:35 which is my prototype 15:43:40 Possibly; another use case is end-users wanting to develop against a module, and hence wanting all the -devel subpackages which are unnecessary at runtime 15:43:51 #info the metadata for a module is similar to what createrep does for a yum repo via jwb 15:44:06 sct: there's an option for that in the current draft 15:44:34 #info the plan is that the "metadata" (fm-metadata) will be the input to the pungi prototype for building 15:44:43 sct: the author can decided whether these should be included in the module or not; apparently there are use cases where you don't want that :) 15:44:59 it defaults to include everything 15:45:12 for rpms at least 15:45:13 Absolutely --- the metadata format should enable, not mandate 15:45:21 not that we support any other format at the moment 15:45:25 it should be entirely up to the module author what they want to include. 15:45:37 contyk: I’d leave content format question open till the new content format appears 15:45:51 lkocman: well, we're ready for that 15:45:55 writing everything “we kinda count with additional content format” should be in every prototyper’s mind though 15:45:59 I know 15:46:03 I’m just raising awareness 15:46:13 my vision of my prototype is also open to any content type 15:46:26 as far as we’re talking about virtual content 15:46:42 i would like to see a other content type prototype soonish ..to show off all the bugs in the stuff we have done :) 15:46:43 and not goats or stuff 15:47:09 langdon: you mean prototype of content format itself or prototype of tool which can handle other content format which is undefined 15:47:11 yet 15:47:18 i would like a goat delivery system.. preferably ones that come as kebabs 15:47:24 langdon: hehe me too 15:47:43 lkocman, i think the latter 15:47:57 but.. no real rush.. we have a lot going on now 15:48:14 ok any other comments about fm-metadata? 15:48:19 goat kebabs, what a novel idea 15:48:35 * nils prefers lamb 15:48:39 nothing from me 15:48:52 maybe besides that adding support for kebabs would be ridiculously easy 15:48:55 we also have been working on making the usage of this stuff easier for any random person.. 15:49:16 geppetto, do you think you could elaborate on ansible-scripts? and/or where the shared instance is? 15:49:56 cpacheco (who seems to be missing) has also been working on a vagrantfile that will get all the stuff for a user/developer on a vm on their local machine 15:50:30 * langdon holds breath awaiting contyk's Kebabs as a Service implementation 15:51:32 ... hmmm.. no geppetto .. 15:51:47 ok.. well.. i didn't warn that i would call him out .. so :) 15:52:31 suffice to say.. in the pagure repo (will provide link) are ansible scripts to build the server(s) yourself.. also there is a shared instance where all the stuff is going so other people can try it 15:52:33 I mean they are in git 15:52:37 but not much has changed 15:52:43 I made them … they seem to work … we can install stuff :) 15:53:10 geppetto, lool 15:53:23 #link ansible scripts for server https://pagure.io/fm-metadata-service/blob/master/f/ansible 15:53:27 The latest ones use handlers, and install from remote git repos. 15:53:36 But they require ansible-2 (in f24+) 15:53:44 ohh right.. good point 15:54:04 #info ansible scripts require ansible-2 which is available only in f24/rawhide atm 15:54:26 ok.. any questions? thoughts? 15:54:30 #topic open floor 15:55:18 One question --- do we need to rejoin the new taiga board? And if so, how (do we need invites)? Or will we transfer membership across from the old board? 15:55:36 sct, i will manually re-add everybody.. so "yes" but I will do it.. 15:55:42 Thanks! 15:55:47 will anybody mind if I’ll simply not touch the old board at all? 15:55:52 should be much less painful now though cause you already have an account 15:56:11 lkocman, if all your stuff is transferred out.. please do not touch it again.. :) ... 15:56:15 hehe 15:56:21 that’s exactly what I wanted to hear 15:56:23 langdon++ 15:56:23 lkocman: Karma for langdon changed to 4 (for the f23 release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 15:56:38 langdon: I was not on the old board, may you please invite me to the new one ? 15:56:43 basically.. everyone has til monday to get their stuff moved over.. likely i will just do it.. but please only add to the new board 15:57:09 jkurik, MUCH easier if you log in to taiga once.. then PM me your email address .. the one you use for fas.. then i can add you 15:57:19 langdon: ok, thanks 15:57:43 langdon: you can query fas for that 15:57:49 btw.. for viewing or adding items.. the board should be public... you only need perms if you want to add comments, move cards between statuses, etc.. 15:57:53 #action langdon will migrate all old taiga board accounts to the new board 15:58:02 contyk, really? ok.. i need to try that 15:58:18 contyk, i didn't realize that was in the list of data returned 15:58:38 .fasinfo psabata 15:58:40 contyk: User: psabata, Name: Petr Šabata, email: psabata@redhat.com, Creation: 2010-06-02, IRC Nick: contyk, Timezone: Europe/Prague, Locale: en, GPG key ID: EC021145, Status: active 15:58:43 contyk: Approved Groups: modularity-wg +packager cla_fedora cla_done fedorabugs provenpackager cla_fpca 15:58:43 langdon: ^ 15:58:54 contyk, yeah.. just did that in pm with zodbot :) 15:58:55 thanks 15:59:11 ok.. anything else? 60s till EOM 15:59:36 jkurik, so .. just ping me once you have logged in once 16:00:12 #info on the taiga board for viewing or adding items.. the board should be public... you only need perms if you want to add comments, move cards between statuses, etc.. 16:00:13 langdon: I am in taiga, I am just not invited to the modularity project 16:00:25 jkurik, cool.. then i will do it this afternoon 16:00:31 thanks 16:00:49 ok.. wrapping up.. feel free to ask anything else in #fedora-modularization 16:00:58 #endmeeting