14:00:20 <nils> #startmeeting modularity_wg
14:00:21 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Oct  2 14:00:20 2018 UTC.
14:00:21 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:00:21 <zodbot> The chair is nils. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:21 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:21 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'modularity_wg'
14:00:21 <nils> #meetingtopic Weekly Meeting of the Modularity Working Group
14:00:21 <nils> #chair dgilmore langdon
14:00:21 <zodbot> Current chairs: dgilmore langdon nils
14:00:24 <nils> \o
14:00:29 <nils> #topic Roll Call
14:00:33 <contyk> .hello psabata
14:00:35 <nils> .hello nphilipp
14:00:40 <zodbot> contyk: psabata 'Petr Šabata' <psabata@redhat.com>
14:00:40 <asamalik> .hello2
14:00:41 <langdon> o?
14:00:44 <zodbot> nils: nphilipp 'Nils Philippsen' <nphilipp@redhat.com>
14:00:47 <zodbot> asamalik: asamalik 'Adam Samalik' <asamalik@redhat.com>
14:01:59 <langdon> .hello2
14:01:59 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@redhat.com>
14:02:11 <nils> #topic Agenda
14:02:27 <contyk> I had an action regarding the Taiga board
14:02:34 <contyk> so I can comment on that
14:02:38 <contyk> do we have anything else?
14:02:50 <nils> asamalik, the "Managing module lifecycles" issue is still open
14:03:06 <nils> is there still something to be discussed here?
14:03:21 <nils> #info [contyk] Taiga board update
14:03:30 <contyk> the issue isn't really resolved, so probably
14:03:36 <langdon> any update on dnf for the record?
14:03:37 <contyk> okay, Taiga
14:03:43 <asamalik> nils: I don't think there was a lot of discussion in the past 2 weeks, but it's not resolved
14:03:52 <nils> ok I'll put it on the agenda
14:03:52 <contyk> langdon: +1, will also comment
14:03:57 <stickster> .hello pfrields
14:03:58 <zodbot> stickster: pfrields 'Paul W. Frields' <stickster@gmail.com>
14:03:59 <contyk> Taiga!
14:04:02 <asamalik> nils: I think we can remove the meeting label, but need to keep it before that
14:04:09 * stickster lurking -- sorry, in another meeting at the same time and missed the roll call earlier :-)
14:04:17 <nils> #info [asamalik] Managing module lifecycles
14:04:18 <contyk> so I've been creating epics in our instance for topics I know need some work
14:04:19 <asamalik> * before we have taiga
14:04:20 <asamalik> :)
14:04:34 <nils> shall I switch the order?
14:04:37 <contyk> it's still incomplete, there are a couple more I need to add for software management, third party story, and composes
14:04:50 <contyk> nils: should I wait? :)
14:05:02 <nils> I'm asking asamalik :)
14:05:23 <nils> ah yes, please wait until the agenda is done, thanks :)
14:05:36 <nils> anyway
14:05:37 * contyk misread the #info for #topic
14:05:47 * asamalik is cnfused
14:06:04 <nils> #info [langdon, contyk] dnf update
14:06:18 <nils> #topic Taiga board update
14:06:21 <nils> #chair contyk
14:06:21 <zodbot> Current chairs: contyk dgilmore langdon nils
14:06:25 <contyk> alright
14:06:31 <asamalik> nils: managing lifecycles — not done, nothing to report today
14:06:46 <contyk> so as I've just said, I've been adding epics for topics that need to be resolved in the near term (a release or two)
14:07:09 <contyk> there are still some more I need to define; this is just the first pass anyway -- once ready, I'd like to discuss it with everyone involved
14:07:31 <asamalik> contyk++
14:07:33 <contyk> threebean also had some ideas but I need to clarify these with him first
14:07:52 <contyk> feel free to look at the current status
14:07:57 <contyk> #link https://tree.taiga.io/project/modularity-wg/epics
14:07:59 <asamalik> psabata++
14:08:02 <contyk> most of these don't have any actions, yet
14:08:34 <contyk> I also talked with asamalik regarding how we do the tracking; we defined the columns (states) for epics, stories, tasks, and issues
14:09:01 <contyk> he already has a card on the board to document the current state
14:09:09 <contyk> of course that might change over time as we adopt it
14:09:18 <langdon> did igor add things like he wanted?
14:09:32 <contyk> I gathered input for him, for modulemd and ursa major
14:09:43 <contyk> we have an epic for ursa major, modulemd still needs to be defined
14:09:56 <contyk> that's mostly the buildorder redesign
14:09:57 <langdon> contyk: him? = asamalik? igor?
14:10:02 <contyk> langdon: Igor
14:10:14 <langdon> gotcha
14:10:23 <contyk> Bodhi changes/requests are also capured
14:10:24 <dgilmore> hey all
14:10:37 <contyk> hey
14:10:56 <contyk> I think that's all for now; I'll continue dumping the ideas there
14:11:08 <langdon> do you want others to add things?
14:11:16 <langdon> or more comment/review?
14:11:53 <contyk> comments and reviews would be great
14:12:10 <contyk> for epic ideas (ha), let's discuss those first
14:12:20 * stickster applauds definitions in the cards he's read so far
14:13:52 <contyk> if we could review the current list by the end the week, that'd be awesome
14:14:05 <contyk> we could start using this before our next formal meeting
14:14:23 <contyk> last time we also discussed jit.si meetings and there were some concerns about those
14:14:41 <contyk> when, how often, how to make them as inclusive as possible
14:14:47 <contyk> so that will require some more brainstorming
14:15:01 <contyk> oh and one more thing
14:15:32 <stickster> Can anyone summarize what the concerns were about jit.si?
14:15:45 <contyk> Taiga supports issues but to minimize the number of places people need to check and considering now FAS integration in taiga.io, I'd suggest we just keep using our pagure repo
14:16:16 <langdon> i think the issue is "video meetings" are tough to attend.. not jit.si per se
14:16:27 <contyk> stickster: people who might not attend meetings that are too frequent or can't join video calls might feel excluded
14:16:37 <contyk> what langdon says
14:18:00 <stickster> *nod... right, it's not unusual that volunteer contributors face challenges trying to be on a video call if they have other obligations, especially $DAYJOB
14:18:17 * contyk nods
14:18:21 <stickster> Are we considering doing this through IRC then?
14:18:39 <contyk> yes
14:18:48 <contyk> but I think there's still value in video calls
14:18:51 <stickster> And should we set some sort of expectation for how many people show up to those meetings, to help us calibrate whether we can switch to video?  (Sorry if I'm retreading old topics.)
14:19:02 <langdon> and timezones..
14:19:16 <stickster> IOW, if no one who shows up to do work has an issue, then we should use what works well for the groupl.
14:19:19 <stickster> *group, even.
14:19:23 <contyk> can't remember what meeting it was but I think bcotton was taking meetbot notes for a video call
14:19:41 <langdon> i think bcotton did an awesome job keeping a jit.si meetin "on irc" at the same time for the last council meeting.. so we may be able to make it work
14:19:43 <contyk> so it could be a little bit of both
14:19:51 <contyk> ah, the Council
14:19:52 <langdon> ha
14:20:07 <stickster> *nod. There are ways to do this that effectively put info out where others can see/participate. I'm not against video meetings. I'm also not against trying IRC first to see how it goes.
14:20:07 <langdon> i was busy typing and didn't see your remark :)
14:20:44 <stickster> just my $0.02
14:21:02 * stickster goes with the group flow here ;-)
14:21:19 <contyk> we can change it every day!
14:21:51 <langdon> how about every 1/4 in every meeting.. like sportball!
14:22:15 <contyk> we could just mail voice recordings to each other
14:22:43 * stickster sends carrier pigeon notes
14:22:45 <asamalik> on tapes?
14:23:04 <nils> In obscure formats. Like recorded on wire :)
14:23:09 <contyk> yes, as digital data on tapes
14:23:15 <nils> pfff digital
14:23:20 <contyk> good old tar
14:23:40 <contyk> anyway, needs some more thought still
14:23:54 <asamalik> glad we're exploring all the options
14:23:58 <nils> .oO(wave forms  scratched into stone tablets)
14:24:09 <contyk> any more comments or should we move to the next topic?
14:24:29 <contyk> maybe some infos
14:25:11 <contyk> #info Still populating our Taiga board with epics and actionable cards; comments and reviews appreciated
14:25:38 <contyk> #info If we seem to agree it's in a usable state, we could start using it before the next WG meeting
14:26:22 <contyk> #info Still gathering ideas for new meetings, both in form and frequency
14:26:25 <contyk> EOF
14:27:49 * contyk hums
14:28:31 <contyk> nils?
14:29:29 <nils> oh sorry
14:29:46 <nils> my laptop is muted, didn't hear your humming ;)
14:30:05 <nils> #topic Managing module lifecycles
14:30:10 <nils> #info no update, postponed
14:30:17 <nils> #topic dnf update
14:30:22 <nils> langdon, contyk?
14:30:47 <langdon> mostly contyk
14:31:12 <contyk> this was discussed during the FESCo meeting yesterday
14:31:36 <contyk> we didn't really get to any conclusion
14:31:50 <langdon> is this the dnf database thing? or something else?
14:31:52 <contyk> so the decision was to give the modularity folks (us) and the dnf team another week to discuss things
14:32:04 <contyk> the goal is to identify an mvp for the blocker
14:32:10 <contyk> it's the dnf database thing, yes
14:32:36 <contyk> .fesco https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1974
14:32:36 <zodbot> contyk: Error: 'https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1974' is not a valid integer.
14:32:42 <contyk> bah
14:32:46 <contyk> .fesco 1974
14:32:47 <zodbot> contyk: Issue #1974: Problematic blocker for F29: dnf 'offline' module tracking - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1974
14:32:56 <contyk> here's where we track it
14:33:28 <contyk> there's another major known dnf/modularity bug but it seems a fix already landed upstream
14:33:40 <langdon> so what can this group do to help with 1974?
14:33:52 <contyk> essentially you couldn't install profile packages unless those were part of your own module, making "meta-modules" fairly broken
14:34:39 <contyk> langdon: good question! we're meeting with the dnf team tomorrow to discuss the problem
14:34:48 <langdon> ok
14:34:49 <contyk> langdon: you included
14:34:57 <langdon> whoops
14:35:03 <langdon> :)
14:35:19 <contyk> but other than that... we'll see, I guess
14:35:47 <contyk> my proposal would be to keep the "database" requirement but acknowledge the issues it might introduce
14:36:21 <contyk> and not blocking the release on having mechanisms to mitigate these ready
14:36:27 <contyk> it's all corner cases
14:39:20 <langdon> so.. move on?
14:39:37 <langdon> contyk: actually one more thing
14:39:53 <langdon> i thought there was a workaround.. was that just mistaken?
14:40:12 <contyk> I'm not aware of that
14:40:22 * stickster neither
14:41:20 <langdon> contyk: maybe i misunderstood.. or something.. it came up in council meeting a few weeks ago.. maybe ill look at the logs and see if i can figure out where i got it from
14:41:24 <nils> anything to #info?
14:42:06 <contyk> #info Our WG will discuss FESCo issue 1974 with the DNF team to agree on an MVP later this week
14:42:37 <nils> so, anything for open floor?
14:43:23 <contyk> hmm
14:43:27 * stickster is prepping email to council-discuss on lifecycle objective
14:43:46 <contyk> I got some feedback from a confused user today when their ursine package was upgraded to a modular variant today
14:43:59 <stickster> hm
14:44:00 <contyk> I'm not sure whether it was f28 or f29, though
14:44:30 <contyk> this was because the content was modularized and we introduced defaults for the module replacing it
14:44:37 <nils> I noticed that an update enabled the libgit2 module for me, not sure if that's related,
14:44:49 <contyk> it was transparent and automatic but our "managing defaults" page says we should have a Change for these things
14:45:03 <contyk> #link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/modularity/making-modules/managing-defaults/
14:45:18 <contyk> however, that page is a little unclear to me
14:45:51 <contyk> if I modularize my content, add defaults to and retire my ursine package in rawhide only, does that require a change?
14:46:10 <nils> #undo
14:46:10 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Link object at 0x7f5650990b10>
14:46:17 <nils> #topic Open Floor
14:46:27 <nils> #link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/modularity/making-modules/managing-defaults/
14:46:30 <nils> (oops)
14:46:37 <contyk> :)
14:46:43 <contyk> it probably does
14:46:55 <contyk> anyway, it might need some clarification (yet another process-type epic...)
14:47:13 <contyk> nils: and yeah, it was libgit2 in this case
14:47:48 <langdon> personally, on the point, I don't think that needs a change
14:47:50 <nils> some dependency that only is fulfilled when the module is enabled?
14:48:29 <contyk> langdon: on the other hand, what would need one? if anything
14:48:48 <langdon> if you wanted no default?
14:48:53 <contyk> that libgit2 transition happened in a stable release; that's not something you have changes for either :)
14:49:22 <contyk> langdon: hmm, yeah
14:50:00 <contyk> when users are somehow impacted
14:50:27 <contyk> content disappearing because it's only in non-default modules would be the case
14:50:44 <contyk> changes to default streams for previously modular content also
14:50:50 <contyk> but that might be it
14:52:05 <langdon> I think our initial guidelines thinking was all was to aggressive
14:52:17 <langdon> *way
14:53:14 <asamalik> yeah what I remember about the change requirement is that it was meant to give user a similar experience they had in the traditional release
14:53:30 <asamalik> so a new (default) version would be announced in the release notes
14:53:39 <asamalik> there won't be any new breaking version mid-release
14:53:40 <asamalik> etc
14:53:57 <asamalik> that page probably could use some love :)
14:56:34 * contyk will add an epic for it :)
14:57:05 <asamalik> contyk: awesome :)
14:57:57 <langdon> can it be called "make all the guidelines easier"? ;)
14:58:52 <nils> not sure if this can be made "time-bound" :D
14:59:50 <contyk> anything else in the last 12 seconds?
15:00:20 <nils> apparently not :)
15:00:24 <nils> thanks everybody!
15:00:27 <nils> #endmeeting