15:04:39 <nils> #startmeeting modularity_wg
15:04:39 <nils> #meetingtopic Weekly Meeting of the Modularity Working Group
15:04:39 <nils> #chair mikedep333
15:04:39 <nils> #topic Roll Call
15:04:39 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Nov 13 15:04:39 2018 UTC.
15:04:39 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:04:39 <zodbot> The chair is nils. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:04:39 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:04:39 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'modularity_wg'
15:04:39 <zodbot> Current chairs: mikedep333 nils
15:04:46 <nils> .hello nphilipp
15:04:47 <zodbot> nils: nphilipp 'Nils Philippsen' <nphilipp@redhat.com>
15:04:51 <asamalik> .hello2
15:04:52 <zodbot> asamalik: asamalik 'Adam Samalik' <asamalik@redhat.com>
15:05:10 <contyk> .hello psabata
15:05:11 <zodbot> contyk: psabata 'Petr Šabata' <psabata@redhat.com>
15:05:33 <nils> #topic Agenda
15:06:14 <nils> #info [asamalik] Module lifecycles
15:06:27 <nils> #info [asamalik] Stream default changes & Fedora Changes
15:06:50 <nils> #info [asamalik] Stream branch ownership for packages & modules
15:06:50 <langdon> .hello2
15:06:51 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@redhat.com>
15:06:58 <nils> #chair langdon
15:06:58 <zodbot> Current chairs: langdon mikedep333 nils
15:07:33 <nils> #info [ignatenkobrain/sgallagh] How do we keep rawhide sane? (re: forcing people to latest modules)
15:07:50 <asamalik> nils: I want to talk about the fourth one as well, if you're looking for an owne... ah, yes :)
15:07:54 <sgallagh> I'm semi-here
15:08:06 <nils> So, let's get this off.
15:08:17 <nils> #topic Module lifecycles
15:08:20 <nils> #chair asamalik
15:08:20 <zodbot> Current chairs: asamalik langdon mikedep333 nils
15:08:35 <asamalik> #link https://pagure.io/modularity/issue/112
15:08:35 <nils> #link https://pagure.io/modularity/issue/112
15:08:38 <asamalik> lol
15:08:40 <nils> boo
15:08:41 <nils> #undo
15:08:41 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Link object at 0x7fe5076fb150>
15:09:11 <asamalik> I don't think I want to re-write the issue here, but:
15:09:41 <ignatenkobrain> .hello2
15:09:42 <zodbot> ignatenkobrain: ignatenkobrain 'Igor Gnatenko' <i.gnatenko.brain@gmail.com>
15:10:02 <asamalik> #info This is a follow-up of a recent (well, a month ago?) threads on the Devel list about how we define and manage module lifecycles, containing a proposal and input from those threads in it
15:10:58 <asamalik> There are two points I need help with finalizing to make the proposal complete. (at the bottom of the issue)
15:11:26 <asamalik> Does anyone want to talk about this live now, or do we want to keep the conversation in the ticket?
15:11:28 <asamalik> EOF
15:12:04 <contyk> I haven't looked at any of these yet so I'll contribute in the tickets when I read them
15:12:14 <asamalik> contyk++
15:12:14 <zodbot> asamalik: Karma for psabata changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:12:22 * bcotton sneaks into the back of the room
15:12:43 * asamalik saw bcotton and say "Hi!" very loudly
15:12:49 <asamalik> *says
15:13:36 <asamalik> if nothing, I think we can move to the next one nils
15:14:01 <asamalik> my goal with these is to provide a status update + a few minute for a live discussion if there is a need
15:14:30 <nils> cool
15:14:48 <nils> #topic Stream default changes & Fedora Changes
15:14:56 <asamalik> I expect the most discussion about the last one that's nearly finalized
15:15:03 * asamalik waits for a link from nils this time!
15:15:27 <nils> ahh okay
15:15:31 <nils> *mumbles*
15:15:40 <nils> #link https://pagure.io/modularity/issue/114
15:16:11 <asamalik> #info Likely the least complex topic of the four we have today. I have a very short proposal there, already two +1's from bcotton and sgallagh
15:16:17 <asamalik> nils++
15:16:17 <zodbot> asamalik: Karma for nphilipp changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:16:34 <langdon> did we change the rules for this group yet? i don't remember.. what do we need to make it pass?
15:16:38 <asamalik> Again, anyone wants to discuss this live? or keep it for the ticket?
15:16:41 <langdon> i think we need to revisit those rules
15:16:43 <sgallagh> asamalik: I thought we already approved this long ago. It’s written in the Fedora Wiki like this already.
15:16:54 <langdon> sgallagh: me too
15:17:05 <asamalik> sgallagh: the current agreement was "every stream change requires a fedora change"
15:17:12 <asamalik> initially in the wiki, moved to the docs
15:17:27 <sgallagh> asamalik: pretty sure it was only defaults
15:17:29 <asamalik> this is the tracker: https://tree.taiga.io/project/modularity-wg/epic/35
15:17:40 <asamalik> sgallagh: excuse me, "every default changes"
15:17:45 <asamalik> you're right!
15:17:48 * asamalik can't type today
15:18:05 <sgallagh> So how is this different?
15:18:20 <asamalik> the change here is "always" -> "based on the change's significance and its maintainer's best judgement."
15:18:23 <nils> asamalik, do I get this right, that the difference to status quo is that a Fedora Change isn't mandatory anymore?
15:18:26 <contyk> so, I'm a bit behind, but I'd like this to be relaxed
15:18:51 <contyk> namely when you add new content or move content to modules, I don't think you should need a change for that
15:19:00 <asamalik> contyk: +1
15:19:08 <contyk> it's different from changing defaults, which usually involves rebasing
15:19:53 <asamalik> contyk: your example is covered there, proposing you don't need a change for that
15:20:26 <contyk> asamalik: where is there?
15:20:35 <asamalik> in the #link above
15:20:39 <contyk> ok
15:20:46 <ignatenkobrain> also you don't create change for every major package upgrade
15:20:54 <asamalik> that's right
15:21:09 <asamalik> that's why I want to change this from "always" to "based on the change's significance and its maintainer's best judgement."
15:21:10 <contyk> but if you have different streams, chances are those significantly differ
15:21:22 <asamalik> contyk: very likely
15:21:37 <contyk> but yeah, I guess it makes more sense to require Changes depending on the nature of the change rather than the mechanism of delivery
15:22:05 <sgallagh> contyk: +1
15:22:11 <asamalik> the goal there is to treat new traditional package versions and new module stream defaults the same way
15:22:27 <asamalik> I don't want to introduce any complications / obstacles to the existing process
15:23:56 <asamalik> so, do we want to let people to put their +1's -1's to the ticket, or do we want to close it now?
15:24:20 <asamalik> per langdon's comment about the approval process, if my memory serves me well, it's a majority of +1 votes of people present in the meeting
15:24:35 * contyk would appreciate more time to go through the tickets
15:24:45 * asamalik wants to go to the next topic in up to 5 mins to have time
15:24:49 <asamalik> contyk: +1
15:25:08 <nils> FWIW, +1
15:25:14 <asamalik> #info we'll give it more time for people to give their +1's and -1's on this one
15:25:17 <sgallagh> +1
15:25:30 * asamalik should have info'd the previous topic as well.. well, too late
15:25:35 <asamalik> nils: I think we're ready to go!
15:25:54 <nils> #topic Stream branch ownership for packages & modules
15:26:03 <nils> #link https://pagure.io/modularity/issue/115
15:26:59 <asamalik> #info A specific proposal regarding stream branch ownership. Already includes some input from recent (a month ago?) discussion about managing module lifecycles on the Devel list.
15:27:38 <asamalik> Again, won't rewrite the ticket here, we can either discuss or leave it to the ticket! It's new today, so I don't expect everyone has read it.
15:28:28 <nils> asamalik, I assume "not being built in any module" in the last point includes platform.
15:28:34 <langdon> probably needs input from fpc
15:29:09 <asamalik> nils: that's right, not being buit at all
15:29:30 <asamalik> a stream branch not included in any module
15:30:05 <asamalik> although I'm just remembering we had some discussions about using stream branches without modules? or was that turned down completely?
15:31:03 <asamalik> langdon: ah maybe?
15:32:23 <asamalik> langdon: do you think we should @mention someone in particular in the ticket to get their attention?
15:32:39 <langdon> probably james antill
15:32:52 <asamalik> langdon: do you wanna do that? :P
15:33:10 <langdon> i think your last bullet is weird.. it should probably be reworded to not say a package is unmaintained if it isn't in a module
15:33:48 <nils> asamalik, I'm not sure who other than modules would use stream branches as long as platform isn't modular
15:33:54 <langdon> asamalik: and, sure
15:34:33 <langdon> nils: well.. it gives the package independence from versions of fedora.. like why does the version of a package get bumped just because there is a new release.. that is tooling enforcing policy
15:34:59 <asamalik> langdon: so that's just for a particular branch
15:35:20 <langdon> asamalik: eh?
15:35:22 <asamalik> langdon: if there is a stream branch that isn't consumed by any module, it wouldn't have a maintainer
15:35:35 <langdon> ohh.. sorry
15:35:41 <langdon> you went to my earlier q
15:35:46 <asamalik> which is OK because it's not being built anywhere
15:35:55 <asamalik> we might want to retire it, but we don't have to
15:35:59 <langdon> why couldn't it just be a package using the stream branch?
15:36:12 <asamalik> langdon: without a module?
15:36:15 <langdon> yeah
15:37:29 <asamalik> is that a thing?
15:38:05 <nils> That would imply "platform" knows to build from the stream branch rather than the platform one (fXY, rawhide).
15:38:13 <nils> I don't think that's a thing.
15:38:23 * asamalik doesn't think that's a thing
15:38:34 <asamalik> me used think vs. thing correctly!
15:39:09 <bcotton> asamalik++
15:39:09 <zodbot> bcotton: Karma for asamalik changed to 5 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:39:28 <asamalik> anyway, I think that's a good question for the ticket probably, as we don't have a strong presence here today
15:39:35 <langdon> i think it should be a thing :) .. this proposal has a bunch of problems.. i am trying to figure out how to rewrite it.. like you say "package" in the bullets but I think you mean "stream branch" .. sort of
15:39:45 * asamalik just looks at bcotton
15:40:11 <langdon> but my caffeine level is very low this morning
15:40:57 * nils resists posting the K. Janeway "Coffee, black" Youtube compilation.
15:41:22 <asamalik> langdon: I see the two bullet points saying "package" vs. "package stream branch"... you're right, let me fix it
15:42:30 <langdon> asamalik: i just added an edit.. see if you like that
15:43:11 <asamalik> I've just fixed those two points
15:43:16 <asamalik> will look langdon, thanks!
15:43:31 <asamalik> anyway, I think we can move on? nils?
15:43:43 <nils> coming up...
15:44:15 <nils> #topic How do we keep rawhide sane? (re: forcing people to latest modules) (reprise)
15:44:33 * asamalik loves langdon's edit, will just replace it there!
15:44:36 <asamalik> langdon++
15:44:36 <zodbot> asamalik: Karma for langdon changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:44:37 <nils> #link https://pagure.io/modularity/issue/108
15:46:22 <nils> I guess this will be just a summary of what we came up with in the ticket and meetings, that's why "reprise".
15:47:01 <asamalik> so in that one we're nearly there
15:47:29 <asamalik> contyk, sgallagh, langdon ^^ have you had a time to look at the last three comments in this one?
15:47:36 <contyk> nope
15:47:46 * contyk is totally unprepared today
15:48:29 <langdon> me either :(
15:49:45 <asamalik> ignatenkobrain: forgot to tag you, since you've opened the ticked in the first place ^^
15:50:03 <asamalik> anyway, we can also just leave the discussion to there
15:50:15 <asamalik> hopefully we'll be able to close some of them next time
15:51:35 <asamalik> #info we'll continue the discussion in the ticket
15:51:47 <asamalik> nils: all right! I think that's it for this one
15:51:54 <nils> good!
15:52:08 <nils> #topic Open Floor
15:52:16 <nils> Anything for open floor?
15:52:57 * asamalik has nothing
15:54:27 * nils watches the crickets cricketing
15:54:32 <nils> Alright!
15:54:35 <nils> #undo
15:54:35 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x7fe503d52c10>
15:54:42 <nils> everyone gets some minutes back!
15:54:49 <nils> Thanks everybody!
15:54:52 <nils> #endmeeting