14:39:10 <kwurst> #startmeeting Pathways Workshop Friday
14:39:10 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Feb  5 14:39:10 2016 UTC.  The chair is kwurst. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:39:10 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:39:10 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'pathways_workshop_friday'
14:39:33 <mchua> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/File:2.1_Introduction.pptx
14:40:05 <mchua> #topic intro slides
14:42:15 <kwurst> #topic introductions
14:42:36 <mchua> #idea Greg Hislop from Drexel
14:42:41 <mchua> #idea Gina Likins from Red Hat
14:43:07 <mchua> #idea Sara Terp, data scientist & teacher
14:43:18 <mchua> (missed Avni's last name, kwurst help?)
14:43:47 <glikins1> ccccccdlrjrkvfgeufbuilefjcjinrnldhirltruecfb
14:44:04 <glikins1> (2-factor authentication poker: I'm winning)
14:44:40 <mchua> #idea Avni, Mass General - works on FOSS recruitment
14:44:46 <mchua> #idea Mel Chua, FOSS researcher
14:44:58 <mchua> #idea Lori Postner, faculty getting open source into the classroom
14:45:23 <mchua> #idea Heidi Ellis, WNEU, student involvement in humanitarian FOSS
14:45:30 <mchua> avni: sorry I missed your last name
14:45:32 <avni> #idea Avni Khatri
14:45:56 <avni> #idea Avni Khatri, Mass General, Kids on Computers
14:45:56 <mchua> thanks avni! just trying to get everyone's names down here
14:46:02 <mchua> perrrfect
14:46:07 <mchua> #idea Laura Brennan, ASL interpreter
14:46:13 <mchua> #idea Brittany Ray, ASL interpreter (and ninja)
14:47:34 <mchua> #idea Karl Wurst, WSU, student teams in open source
14:47:38 <mchua> avni: heidie: help
14:47:56 <heidie> #idea Saptarshi
14:47:57 <avni> #idea Saptarshi (didn’t get last name)
14:48:07 <mchua> w'ere going to have some really interesting notes today
14:48:27 <heidie> #idea Saptarshi Purkayastha
14:49:14 <mchua> (Devin?)
14:49:20 <sjterp> Devin
14:49:22 <avni> #idea Devin
14:49:24 <heidie> #idea Devin Balkind
14:49:24 <avni> :-)
14:49:28 <mchua> (from Sahara)
14:49:41 <sjterp> Sahana
14:49:52 <mchua> right spelling thanks
14:50:11 * mchua is getting her vocab back slowly, the phd was a big ostrich hole i'm still kinda in
14:50:33 <lorip> the slides are at
14:50:35 <sjterp> I wsn’t human til 4 coffees this morning…
14:50:36 <lorip> #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/File:2.1_Introduction.pptx
14:50:43 * heidie wonders how big an ostrich hole really is...
14:52:28 <sjterp> “an adult male may be 2.75 metres (about 9 feet) tall—almost half of its height is neck”
14:57:13 <heidie> sjterp, You have the most amazing collection of information at your fingertips!
14:57:40 <sjterp> “data scientist” == “someone who knows where to look”
14:57:43 <mchua> (For the logs: Greg is currently recaping a history of how this project came to be -- faculty involvement in FOSS)
14:58:16 <mchua> POSSE started at Red Hat b/c there weren't resources, etc. for faculty trying to do FOSS with their students
14:58:43 <mchua> (this is where I formally got involved as the previous but less knowledgeable incarnation of glikins1 's current job
14:58:46 <mchua> )
14:59:19 <mchua> #idea Need -- faculty resources for teaching open source in the classroom
14:59:37 <mchua> #idea integrating FOSS participaiton throughout the curriculum, not just suddenly in one place
15:00:28 <mchua> #idea need both technical and soft skills
15:01:10 <avni> POGIL - process-oriented guided (?) learning
15:01:26 <heidie> POGIL - process-oriented guided inquiry learning
15:01:30 <sjterp> https://pogil.org/
15:01:37 <avni> thx /heidi
15:01:44 <heidie> POGIL will be used to help scaffold learning of the more introductory students.
15:02:14 <heidie> Gradually leading students to a maturity of learning level so that they can be productively lost in an HFOSS project.
15:03:33 <sjterp> Am going to look at how to adapt pogil to open data
15:05:57 <heidie> sjterp, Oh, cool! I can put you in touch with Clif if you'd like. He would love the idea.
15:06:07 <mchua> Is there a good overview paper on the POGIL approach?
15:06:15 <mchua> from either an implementation or a theoretical learning sciences point of view?
15:06:24 <sjterp> Heidie - yes please!  I can see lots of tranfer possibilities to the data crowd here
15:06:41 <sjterp> New AP course title was?
15:06:45 <heidie> mchua, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279406068_POGIL_An_overview
15:06:56 <heidie> CS Principles?
15:11:39 * glikins1 reads backwards -- mchua  you are *hilarious* - there is no universe where you know less than OI
15:13:03 <mchua> heidie et all, were there a list of success criteria (functional specs?) for stage 3 you were hoping to meet?
15:13:49 <mchua> #idea current faculty workshop doing well pre-workshop and at-workshop but kinda iffy post-workshop b/c people are busy
15:14:15 <mchua> heidie: i'm even more convinced than 5 years ago that the encultration process for the phd and a foss community are super suimilar
15:14:18 <mchua> similar
15:14:21 <mchua> i can't type
15:14:22 <heidie> mchua, Generally just want some evidence of faculty members supporting student learning from and/or participating in HFOSS project.
15:14:38 <heidie> mchua, This is is interesting.
15:14:40 <mchua> heidie: and that's the part that's not being met yet?
15:15:39 <heidie> mchua, Possibly. one issue is that faculty members may not see the need or have the time to become a member of another community.
15:15:53 <mchua> heidie: it's a high bar to entry, truly -- the communities don't advertise it as such
15:16:00 <mchua> but if you tihnk about it -- thta's like saying "anyone can get into computing"
15:16:06 <mchua> and then you hit the first year of the MS
15:16:12 <mchua> and you're like "I CAN PROGRAM!"
15:16:17 <mchua> but then you get these papers to read
15:16:23 <mchua> and you're overwhelmed becaues who are all these people
15:16:31 <mchua> and then you get taken to conferences and people say "oh, you're so and so's student, ok"
15:16:38 <mchua> you can't just read the books, it's a network
15:16:42 <heidie> Yes, agreed.
15:16:46 <mchua> and a set of stories in the community that you learn your way into, and then learn to modify
15:16:56 <mchua> both informally in terms of social rules and social stories
15:17:07 <heidie> Ah, an interesting perspective.
15:17:08 <mchua> and formally in terms of contributions to the... repository of journal articles, conf articles
15:17:20 <mchua> same in foss. except it's social stories and interactions and then the journal equivalent is shipping code
15:17:53 <mchua> we recognize that it's a thing with grad school, a big deal, investment, takes time, etc -- in foss, less so
15:18:37 <heidie> So what is the motivator for faculty members to go through the process to join an HFOSS community?
15:18:45 <heidie> motivation is clear for the Ph.D. process.
15:18:54 <mchua> (but just as there are lectrures/courses open to the public in academic disciplines, it is true that there are things you can do in foss that don't require you to go through that process)
15:18:56 <glikins1> interesting: so part of the issue is the fact that open source doesn't ACK that it is a Big Fat Fuzzy (somewhat hard) deal
15:19:08 <glikins1> to get into open source
15:19:20 <mchua> heidie: i would tihnk of it as joining another research community, teaching community, etc... what you and greg and others have done is to make a place *in academia* that overlaps with foss
15:19:24 <mchua> glikins1: YES
15:19:25 <glikins1> and if the ACK were there -- would that make it easier?
15:19:48 <mchua> glikins1: clearer. not easier per se, but clear processes are possible to follow
15:20:41 <mchua> #idea why get students involved in foss at all?
15:20:52 <glikins1> (this reminds me of the thing from the women's coder camp where they make it a rule that you *can't* say "Oh, that's so easy" or "I can't believe you don't know this" because by saying that you make the other person "stupid".  When the FOSS community doesn't ACK its high barrier to entry they make anyone who feels like it is hard stupid)
15:21:10 <mchua> #idea kwurst says students need to get involved in something much larger than they could do themselves, because that's what the world is like
15:21:39 <glikins1> #idea better than developing apps from scratch; more realistic idea of what world is like (from kwurst)
15:22:31 <mchua> #idea darci says real world exposure, realizing things like docs etc are important (whereas they usually complain about it)
15:22:34 <glikins1> #idea darci says that when they hear it from the community it is "real" to the students
15:22:43 <mchua> glikins1: oh cool, i can take a notetaking break :) thanks
15:22:54 <mchua> glikins1: exactly! that's a social rule at recurse center where i'm doing research and it's SO VALUABLE
15:23:22 <glikins1> #idea lorip says that it helps students get over misunderstanding of what computer scientists do
15:24:01 <glikins1> (mchua - is the notetaking a valuable part of your process for you + translator) ? I remember something about that from one of your blogs?
15:24:04 <mchua> glikins1: saying that sort of thing is purely to boost the sayer's status, not to actually educate
15:24:17 <glikins1> muchua *ding*
15:24:37 <sjterp> Can I chip in - as an academic who teaches the humanitarian students about OS… that they don’t have to start from scratch, and that they can find people with skills they don’t have, and that they *can* improve apps they get frustrated with.
15:25:03 <mchua> glikins1: it's something i do to help me think sometimes, don't worry about me catching things b/c i'll ask if i'm missing
15:25:04 <glikins1> #idea heidie says it make the students into a more limitless environment; also gives H a lot more resources for student learning
15:25:07 <mchua> sjterp: YES
15:25:16 <mchua> sjterp: that's one of my big plusses -- teaches that the world is writeable and not just readable
15:25:39 <glikins1> (mchua - k - remember seeing the thing about the live note-taking and using it as a translator check in real-time)
15:25:51 <mchua> glikins1: oh, that's more when i'm lipreading.
15:26:14 <mchua> glikins1: but i'm a data junkie and will use any and all streams at all times
15:26:23 <glikins1> #idea ghislop reinforces the "real world" -- that the things he says are real
15:27:18 <glikins1> #idea sjterp says as an academic who teaches the humanitarian students about OS… that they don’t have to start from scratch, and that they can find people with skills they don’t have, and that they *can* improve apps they get frustrated with.
15:27:40 <glikins1> #idea sjterp says teaches soft skills - learning in teams; communicating, etc
15:27:56 <glikins1> (should I switch to etherpad)
15:28:03 <glikins1> seems silly to dual-boot
15:29:31 <mchua> glikins1: yeah i'm wondering the same
15:29:31 <mchua> heidie: are our notes here redundant with your etherpad ones?
15:29:41 <mchua> i see value in backchannel already but there's no need to take notes 2x
15:30:12 <glikins1> what is titanpad URL?
15:30:20 <avni> https://titanpad.com/PMWG
15:30:22 <glikins1> (Ok, backchannel for this, etherpad for notes)
15:30:24 <glikins1> tnx
15:32:37 <mchua> sounds good!
15:33:49 <heidie> mchua, I'm only summarizing in the etherpad.
15:37:06 <sjterp> Mentoring… have seen some very strong mentoring relationships form between students and experienced coders.
15:39:36 <mchua> yeah.
15:39:48 <mchua> stil haven't found a good summary for this but
15:40:00 <mchua> foss is a great way to eavesdrop on what a software community looks like
15:40:05 <mchua> the good (and it's overwhelmingly good)
15:40:06 <mchua> also the ugly
15:40:13 <mchua> andyou can watch that, see that, talk about it
15:40:42 <avni> mchua - agree
15:40:42 <sjterp> (and talk about responses, before you’re on your own in a work team)
15:41:27 <mchua> sjterp: yes
15:41:41 <mchua> it's like... freeze frame, back out -- being able to have that reflective place if you need it
15:41:44 <mchua> with safe people
15:42:33 <avni> I think the virtual environment, though it is a barrier, also provides a measure of protection/safety to new contributors.
15:42:53 <mchua> avni: yeah, the affordances of the medium are -- very, very interesting.
15:45:12 <mchua> avni: even in this meeting, i'm noticing a subset of us are using this space in a different way :D
15:45:46 <avni> :-)
15:52:11 <glikins1> mchua - the idea of the safe space/mentor is one I really think is important (esp for women/minories)
15:52:23 <sjterp> my words are going today - it’s Agile and Lean principles that I get to the development students first.
15:52:47 <sjterp> glikins1 - just seeing “someone like me” in the community can be important for students
15:52:58 <glikins1> sjterp - I like that idea -- learn the pm/etc. stuff first so that you can contribute without coding
15:53:07 <glikins1> also learn "community" stuff
15:55:48 <glikins1> and github. 'cause you can use github for everything
15:56:50 <sjterp> I have a capstone project analysing the application of an OS project… but that’s not in the codebase.
15:58:06 <sjterp> Hmm… was going to say github won’t make my tea, but I can push a doc through the api and use an app connected to a raspberrypi plus electric socket to do that.  Hmm.
15:58:27 <glikins1> well, for example, I didn
15:58:44 <glikins1> t know until I was in this role that you can do docs in github
15:58:48 <mchua> sjterp: yeah, the ability to use someone as a model when they're not actively "acting as a teacher"
15:59:03 <mchua> we have done exercises where we watch a single contributor's threads on a mailing list, or in an irc channel, or through a bug tracker
15:59:06 <glikins1> which opens up participation for ppl who arent' yet coders
15:59:11 <mchua> because they are doing such a great job of navigating the sociotechnical environ
15:59:19 <glikins1> that's a good idea
15:59:26 <sjterp> +1
15:59:37 <mchua> the cognitive apprenticeship framework i find super applicable to foss
15:59:59 <mchua> it's basically a way to describe teaching techniques (that may not be recognized as teaching techniques) that happen in FOSS communities
16:00:13 * glikins1 googles
16:00:15 <mchua> (originally developed to describe math/reading/etc teaching techniques for K-12, based on watching traditional craft apprenticeships)
16:00:30 <mchua> glikins1: it's a recurring talk i give at recurse center, happy to do a quickie recap over lunch
16:00:38 <mchua> should probably write it up someday
16:00:39 <mchua> but dissertation
16:00:53 <glikins1> oh -- I tlak about that in my talks
16:00:57 <glikins1> but don't call it that
16:00:58 <mchua> cogapp?
16:01:00 <mchua> ooo
16:01:06 <mchua> what do you cll it?
16:02:22 <glikins1> I talk about modeling uncertainty for your students and how important that is -- showing them that not knowing the answers is AOK and showing them *how* to find the answers and hhow to figur eout who to ask and how to think about problems is FAR more valuable than teaching them The Right Answer (because that'll change by the time they're out of school)
16:02:27 <mchua> yup
16:02:38 <mchua> cogapp has a couple more specific breakdowns of teaching behaviors
16:02:51 <glikins1> reading
16:03:10 <mchua> and i've found it helpful to explicitly teach both learners and mentors that language so they can ask each other for what they need
16:06:28 <avni> mchua is there a link to cogapp?
16:16:30 <mchua> avni: the wikipedia page has generic descriptions but the thing i need to write at some point is the application to sw edu
16:21:28 <mchua> avni: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/bk-2008-0994.ch001
16:22:03 <avni> mchua: Yes I can access. thank you!
16:33:06 * mchua has soooo many thoughts on intrinsic motivation research righ tnow
16:33:58 <avni> heidie: I get disconnedted as well.
16:34:01 <glikins1> y
16:34:32 <sjterp> it’s both big and small… I run across the same people across communities all the time..
16:35:10 <glikins1> just reconnected
16:38:11 <mchua> autonomy, competence, and relatedness: components of self-determination theory (for intrinsic motivation)
16:40:29 <mchua> heidie: have i shown you my recurse center talk before?
16:40:39 <mchua> heidie: i think it might be pretty relevant as grounding for some of the things we're discussing right now
16:40:56 <mchua> heidie: basically, "looking at hackers in foss-ish environments... here's the learning science language that seems to really apply"
16:40:56 <heidie> mchua, not sure, explain?
16:41:11 <heidie> Oh, yes, bring it up.
16:41:18 <mchua> hackers found it a really useful vocab to discribe their learning (so they could then hack it)
16:41:19 <mchua> *describe
16:41:39 <heidie> mchua, to the group.
16:41:42 <mchua> i need ot at some point turn it into an academic presentation/paper and bridge it back
16:41:42 <mchua> (diiissssertaaaationnnnnnn)
16:41:42 <mchua> can show briefly at lunch if interested
16:41:50 <mchua> it's a bit -- semiorthognoal to this discussion
16:41:52 <heidie> Sure, lunch is fine.
16:41:53 <heidie> :-)
16:41:54 <mchua> k
16:45:59 <glikins1> that's an interesting idea: a bussiness app; an HFOSS app; a [design] thing
16:46:09 <glikins1> scratch all the itcehs
16:46:16 <glikins1> (worst typist known)
16:49:24 <glikins1> mchua as an aside, I think scaffolding is the part I don't get
16:49:39 <glikins1> the rest of it I understand (and do, but didn't have names for)
16:50:13 <mchua> glikins1: right, that's the reaction from most hackers
16:50:17 <mchua> "ohhhhh there are worrrrrrrrds for this"
16:50:53 <mchua> learning techniques, motivation, scaffolding progression, community nurturance -- all vocab from research that i basically throw out in my talk as tools to think with
16:52:49 <mchua> heidie: ok i desperately want to give people language for stuff now
16:52:49 <mchua> you're talking about dreyfuss right now
16:52:49 <mchua> also self-regulation theory
16:53:22 <mchua> (earlier i was talking about anyon's hidden curriculum wrt the "i can change this" paradigm)
16:54:03 <glikins1> mchua: One of the things I say in my "How to offend and insult your open source community" talk is "I believe that giving people language to talk about behaviours is key to seeing them and talking about them
16:55:39 <mchua> glikins1: right, otherwise there's no way to refer to things
16:58:34 <mchua> the nice thing about this language is that it ties to a huge body of work/reesarch/applicability/crossover into other fields
17:19:51 <heidie> thanks glikins1 :-)
17:21:28 <mchua> heidie: the conversation is getting a little interrupty. not to stop people right now or call it out, but maybe after lunch we can have a convo rules reset
17:21:32 <mchua> ?
17:21:38 <mchua> like... talking stick, even
17:21:47 <heidie> Ah,, right.
17:22:00 <mchua> thanks :D
17:26:48 <kwurst> noted…
17:30:36 <glikins1> thanks for the reminder mchua
17:31:08 <mchua> glikins1: it's something we all know, but it does mean everyone has to remember it for it to work... i think we can reset over lunch easily if we come back to that at the start of the afternoon
17:32:20 <glikins1> (honestly  I am terrible about it -- in general.  And it's worse when I'm passionate)
17:32:27 <mchua> glikins1: true dat
17:32:29 <mchua> same here
17:35:09 * mchua wants to break down greg's comment into 2 things
17:35:17 <mchua> 1) expert blind spot
17:35:22 <mchua> 2) students viewing things as contributions or not
17:35:27 <mchua> ghislop: ^
17:36:22 <kwurst> mchua: expert blind spot - or just fogetting what’s already installed on their own dev machine.
17:37:18 <mchua> kwurst: that is a great example of the expert blind spot
18:57:41 <kwurst> mchua is now drawing a MelDiagram(TM) on motivation…
19:36:42 <glikins1> code versus community
19:36:54 <glikins1> we say community first
19:37:06 <glikins1> if you say community first, this all makes sens
19:39:18 <sjterp> github api: https://developer.github.com/v3/
19:51:24 <glikins1> heidie - good way to onramp people is by "workdays"
19:51:43 <heidie> glikins1, What is a "workday"? Minihackathon?
19:51:57 <glikins1> yep - but more directed
19:52:09 <glikins1> "we're going to do OVirt docs"
19:52:14 <heidie> Ah, like a sprint
19:52:17 <glikins1> YES
19:52:20 <heidie> :-)
19:52:28 <glikins1> or bugsuahing
19:52:32 <glikins1> squashing
19:52:36 <heidie> Right
19:52:44 <glikins1> so you know you're creating a level playing field
19:53:03 <glikins1> and you have 1-2 community members whose only job is to help ppl get set up
19:53:08 <glikins1> and get unstuck
19:53:32 <glikins1> and the time commitment (real-life or virtual) is worth it to them b/c they are helping 30 ppl at once
19:54:28 <glikins1> (mchua - what is it like at an institution when someone is a researcher and an instructor)
20:06:46 <mchua> glikins1: with the disclaimer that the event itself needs to be accessible to people
20:07:07 <mchua> i've been thinking more and more about how hackathons, etc. are next to impossible for students with after school jobs, small children, health issues, etc. to participate in
20:07:23 <mchua> (not to mention a lot of non-students)
20:07:41 <mchua> glikins1: what do you mean by that q?
20:07:55 <mchua> heidie, glikins1: totally agreed with the in-person onramp being vital to bridge the digital comms gap sometimes
20:08:06 <heidie> Yes, right.
20:08:07 <mchua> you need to see the facial expression behind the screen, they need to learn how to project themselves into the text medium sometimes
20:08:18 <glikins1> mchua - we were talking about that yesterday -- the fact that hackathons are sometimes hard for ppl wiht kids etc
20:08:34 <mchua> There have been some good pieces on that yesterday -- glikins1 have you seen Skud's blog post on that for instance?
20:08:37 <sjterp> mchua: agreed - I work with people who don’t have those time resources… was online with one earlier today (wants to be a data scientist, teaching herself, can’t afford to go on a course)
20:08:39 <mchua> er not yesterday but recently
20:08:53 <mchua> Right. there's an issue sometimes in communities... "we could do this, so it's therefore available to everyone"
20:09:01 <mchua> right. you could do it so by definition it worked for you
20:09:21 <mchua> not recognizing privilege, like girls not having time to play with code b/c they're expected to babysit young siblings etc
20:09:40 <mchua> or how many conferences provide childcare, or are wheelchair accessible
20:10:11 <glikins1> I think I read skuds piece -
20:10:32 <mchua> glikins1: i'll find a link just in case
20:10:35 <glikins1> that -- "I did it, so it's easy" -- it kills me
20:10:49 <mchua> glikins1: was thinking about the nobel prize winning research on what makes a successful commons... gonna pull it up one sec
20:11:19 <mchua> #link http://infotrope.net/2014/11/28/why-i-dont-like-hackathons-by-alex-bayley-aged-39-12/
20:12:28 <mchua> #link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom#Design_principles_for_Common_Pool_Resource_.28CPR.29_institutions
20:12:31 <mchua> glikins1: ^
20:18:01 <glikins1> yeah, once I flipped reference models I got it (tragedy of, etc.) I am just not used to that word in this context and thought he might be meaning community
20:23:44 <mchua> roger. context shifting fun :D
21:19:44 <glikins1> heidie: is that seeing the forest?
21:19:51 <glikins1> (instead of the trees)
21:20:03 <glikins1> the generealization
21:20:03 <heidie> Yes.
21:20:24 <heidie> I think so. But there is an understanding component there as well. To know that that "thing" that you're looking at is a forest.
21:20:37 <heidie> And perhaps that it is a pine forest versus an oak forest.
21:20:40 <glikins1> so: seeing patterns, synthesis
21:20:45 <heidie> Yes, that too.
21:21:26 <glikins1> is understanding the forest (or naming the type of forest) part of knowing AHA there is a forest
21:22:48 <glikins1> I think they are separate skills
21:23:10 <glikins1> there's seeing "aha - there are a bunch of trees here -- I see a FOREST"
21:23:22 <glikins1> (which is generalization, to me)
21:23:45 <glikins1> and then there's knowing that the forest is pine or oak, which is identifying things
21:25:01 <glikins1> BIg Picture Thinking
21:37:18 * mchua thinks this sometimes depends on learning styles; some people need big picture, some people need clear steps, some people need a combo of both
21:37:29 <mchua> (some people don't care about big picture, some people don't care about clear steps after a certain point)
21:37:48 <glikins1> (yes -- this was in reference to the definition of what "generalization" means)
21:38:14 <glikins1> and was the reason I said I think the pogil p's do need defining
21:38:27 <mchua> at least in this context, yeah. or at least "here is what we are using these terms to mean here"
21:38:37 <mchua> not necessarily "they must mean THUS for ALL PEOPLES FOR ALL TIME"
21:38:42 <glikins1> totally agree that people have different learning (and working) needs
21:39:01 <mchua> i think it is good to build this in b/c some people will need it.
21:39:06 <glikins1> I am very much a big pic person.... once it gets down to nitty gritty I'm all .... ugh
21:39:22 <glikins1> synthesis and generalization are some of my best things
21:39:37 <glikins1> (hence 18 years in  web strategy/IA stuff)
21:53:48 <glikins1> y'all check out the diagram halfway down this page:  http://dirkriehle.com/publications/2014-2/the-five-stages-of-open-source-volunteering/
03:30:35 <ghislop> #endmeeting
14:30:06 <kwurst> #endmeeting