14:39:10 #startmeeting Pathways Workshop Friday 14:39:10 Meeting started Fri Feb 5 14:39:10 2016 UTC. The chair is kwurst. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:39:10 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 14:39:10 The meeting name has been set to 'pathways_workshop_friday' 14:39:33 #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/File:2.1_Introduction.pptx 14:40:05 #topic intro slides 14:42:15 #topic introductions 14:42:36 #idea Greg Hislop from Drexel 14:42:41 #idea Gina Likins from Red Hat 14:43:07 #idea Sara Terp, data scientist & teacher 14:43:18 (missed Avni's last name, kwurst help?) 14:43:47 ccccccdlrjrkvfgeufbuilefjcjinrnldhirltruecfb 14:44:04 (2-factor authentication poker: I'm winning) 14:44:40 #idea Avni, Mass General - works on FOSS recruitment 14:44:46 #idea Mel Chua, FOSS researcher 14:44:58 #idea Lori Postner, faculty getting open source into the classroom 14:45:23 #idea Heidi Ellis, WNEU, student involvement in humanitarian FOSS 14:45:30 avni: sorry I missed your last name 14:45:32 #idea Avni Khatri 14:45:56 #idea Avni Khatri, Mass General, Kids on Computers 14:45:56 thanks avni! just trying to get everyone's names down here 14:46:02 perrrfect 14:46:07 #idea Laura Brennan, ASL interpreter 14:46:13 #idea Brittany Ray, ASL interpreter (and ninja) 14:47:34 #idea Karl Wurst, WSU, student teams in open source 14:47:38 avni: heidie: help 14:47:56 #idea Saptarshi 14:47:57 #idea Saptarshi (didn’t get last name) 14:48:07 w'ere going to have some really interesting notes today 14:48:27 #idea Saptarshi Purkayastha 14:49:14 (Devin?) 14:49:20 Devin 14:49:22 #idea Devin 14:49:24 #idea Devin Balkind 14:49:24 :-) 14:49:28 (from Sahara) 14:49:41 Sahana 14:49:52 right spelling thanks 14:50:11 * mchua is getting her vocab back slowly, the phd was a big ostrich hole i'm still kinda in 14:50:33 the slides are at 14:50:35 I wsn’t human til 4 coffees this morning… 14:50:36 #link http://foss2serve.org/index.php/File:2.1_Introduction.pptx 14:50:43 * heidie wonders how big an ostrich hole really is... 14:52:28 “an adult male may be 2.75 metres (about 9 feet) tall—almost half of its height is neck” 14:57:13 sjterp, You have the most amazing collection of information at your fingertips! 14:57:40 “data scientist” == “someone who knows where to look” 14:57:43 (For the logs: Greg is currently recaping a history of how this project came to be -- faculty involvement in FOSS) 14:58:16 POSSE started at Red Hat b/c there weren't resources, etc. for faculty trying to do FOSS with their students 14:58:43 (this is where I formally got involved as the previous but less knowledgeable incarnation of glikins1 's current job 14:58:46 ) 14:59:19 #idea Need -- faculty resources for teaching open source in the classroom 14:59:37 #idea integrating FOSS participaiton throughout the curriculum, not just suddenly in one place 15:00:28 #idea need both technical and soft skills 15:01:10 POGIL - process-oriented guided (?) learning 15:01:26 POGIL - process-oriented guided inquiry learning 15:01:30 https://pogil.org/ 15:01:37 thx /heidi 15:01:44 POGIL will be used to help scaffold learning of the more introductory students. 15:02:14 Gradually leading students to a maturity of learning level so that they can be productively lost in an HFOSS project. 15:03:33 Am going to look at how to adapt pogil to open data 15:05:57 sjterp, Oh, cool! I can put you in touch with Clif if you'd like. He would love the idea. 15:06:07 Is there a good overview paper on the POGIL approach? 15:06:15 from either an implementation or a theoretical learning sciences point of view? 15:06:24 Heidie - yes please! I can see lots of tranfer possibilities to the data crowd here 15:06:41 New AP course title was? 15:06:45 mchua, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279406068_POGIL_An_overview 15:06:56 CS Principles? 15:11:39 * glikins1 reads backwards -- mchua you are *hilarious* - there is no universe where you know less than OI 15:13:03 heidie et all, were there a list of success criteria (functional specs?) for stage 3 you were hoping to meet? 15:13:49 #idea current faculty workshop doing well pre-workshop and at-workshop but kinda iffy post-workshop b/c people are busy 15:14:15 heidie: i'm even more convinced than 5 years ago that the encultration process for the phd and a foss community are super suimilar 15:14:18 similar 15:14:21 i can't type 15:14:22 mchua, Generally just want some evidence of faculty members supporting student learning from and/or participating in HFOSS project. 15:14:38 mchua, This is is interesting. 15:14:40 heidie: and that's the part that's not being met yet? 15:15:39 mchua, Possibly. one issue is that faculty members may not see the need or have the time to become a member of another community. 15:15:53 heidie: it's a high bar to entry, truly -- the communities don't advertise it as such 15:16:00 but if you tihnk about it -- thta's like saying "anyone can get into computing" 15:16:06 and then you hit the first year of the MS 15:16:12 and you're like "I CAN PROGRAM!" 15:16:17 but then you get these papers to read 15:16:23 and you're overwhelmed becaues who are all these people 15:16:31 and then you get taken to conferences and people say "oh, you're so and so's student, ok" 15:16:38 you can't just read the books, it's a network 15:16:42 Yes, agreed. 15:16:46 and a set of stories in the community that you learn your way into, and then learn to modify 15:16:56 both informally in terms of social rules and social stories 15:17:07 Ah, an interesting perspective. 15:17:08 and formally in terms of contributions to the... repository of journal articles, conf articles 15:17:20 same in foss. except it's social stories and interactions and then the journal equivalent is shipping code 15:17:53 we recognize that it's a thing with grad school, a big deal, investment, takes time, etc -- in foss, less so 15:18:37 So what is the motivator for faculty members to go through the process to join an HFOSS community? 15:18:45 motivation is clear for the Ph.D. process. 15:18:54 (but just as there are lectrures/courses open to the public in academic disciplines, it is true that there are things you can do in foss that don't require you to go through that process) 15:18:56 interesting: so part of the issue is the fact that open source doesn't ACK that it is a Big Fat Fuzzy (somewhat hard) deal 15:19:08 to get into open source 15:19:20 heidie: i would tihnk of it as joining another research community, teaching community, etc... what you and greg and others have done is to make a place *in academia* that overlaps with foss 15:19:24 glikins1: YES 15:19:25 and if the ACK were there -- would that make it easier? 15:19:48 glikins1: clearer. not easier per se, but clear processes are possible to follow 15:20:41 #idea why get students involved in foss at all? 15:20:52 (this reminds me of the thing from the women's coder camp where they make it a rule that you *can't* say "Oh, that's so easy" or "I can't believe you don't know this" because by saying that you make the other person "stupid". When the FOSS community doesn't ACK its high barrier to entry they make anyone who feels like it is hard stupid) 15:21:10 #idea kwurst says students need to get involved in something much larger than they could do themselves, because that's what the world is like 15:21:39 #idea better than developing apps from scratch; more realistic idea of what world is like (from kwurst) 15:22:31 #idea darci says real world exposure, realizing things like docs etc are important (whereas they usually complain about it) 15:22:34 #idea darci says that when they hear it from the community it is "real" to the students 15:22:43 glikins1: oh cool, i can take a notetaking break :) thanks 15:22:54 glikins1: exactly! that's a social rule at recurse center where i'm doing research and it's SO VALUABLE 15:23:22 #idea lorip says that it helps students get over misunderstanding of what computer scientists do 15:24:01 (mchua - is the notetaking a valuable part of your process for you + translator) ? I remember something about that from one of your blogs? 15:24:04 glikins1: saying that sort of thing is purely to boost the sayer's status, not to actually educate 15:24:17 muchua *ding* 15:24:37 Can I chip in - as an academic who teaches the humanitarian students about OS… that they don’t have to start from scratch, and that they can find people with skills they don’t have, and that they *can* improve apps they get frustrated with. 15:25:03 glikins1: it's something i do to help me think sometimes, don't worry about me catching things b/c i'll ask if i'm missing 15:25:04 #idea heidie says it make the students into a more limitless environment; also gives H a lot more resources for student learning 15:25:07 sjterp: YES 15:25:16 sjterp: that's one of my big plusses -- teaches that the world is writeable and not just readable 15:25:39 (mchua - k - remember seeing the thing about the live note-taking and using it as a translator check in real-time) 15:25:51 glikins1: oh, that's more when i'm lipreading. 15:26:14 glikins1: but i'm a data junkie and will use any and all streams at all times 15:26:23 #idea ghislop reinforces the "real world" -- that the things he says are real 15:27:18 #idea sjterp says as an academic who teaches the humanitarian students about OS… that they don’t have to start from scratch, and that they can find people with skills they don’t have, and that they *can* improve apps they get frustrated with. 15:27:40 #idea sjterp says teaches soft skills - learning in teams; communicating, etc 15:27:56 (should I switch to etherpad) 15:28:03 seems silly to dual-boot 15:29:31 glikins1: yeah i'm wondering the same 15:29:31 heidie: are our notes here redundant with your etherpad ones? 15:29:41 i see value in backchannel already but there's no need to take notes 2x 15:30:12 what is titanpad URL? 15:30:20 https://titanpad.com/PMWG 15:30:22 (Ok, backchannel for this, etherpad for notes) 15:30:24 tnx 15:32:37 sounds good! 15:33:49 mchua, I'm only summarizing in the etherpad. 15:37:06 Mentoring… have seen some very strong mentoring relationships form between students and experienced coders. 15:39:36 yeah. 15:39:48 stil haven't found a good summary for this but 15:40:00 foss is a great way to eavesdrop on what a software community looks like 15:40:05 the good (and it's overwhelmingly good) 15:40:06 also the ugly 15:40:13 andyou can watch that, see that, talk about it 15:40:42 mchua - agree 15:40:42 (and talk about responses, before you’re on your own in a work team) 15:41:27 sjterp: yes 15:41:41 it's like... freeze frame, back out -- being able to have that reflective place if you need it 15:41:44 with safe people 15:42:33 I think the virtual environment, though it is a barrier, also provides a measure of protection/safety to new contributors. 15:42:53 avni: yeah, the affordances of the medium are -- very, very interesting. 15:45:12 avni: even in this meeting, i'm noticing a subset of us are using this space in a different way :D 15:45:46 :-) 15:52:11 mchua - the idea of the safe space/mentor is one I really think is important (esp for women/minories) 15:52:23 my words are going today - it’s Agile and Lean principles that I get to the development students first. 15:52:47 glikins1 - just seeing “someone like me” in the community can be important for students 15:52:58 sjterp - I like that idea -- learn the pm/etc. stuff first so that you can contribute without coding 15:53:07 also learn "community" stuff 15:55:48 and github. 'cause you can use github for everything 15:56:50 I have a capstone project analysing the application of an OS project… but that’s not in the codebase. 15:58:06 Hmm… was going to say github won’t make my tea, but I can push a doc through the api and use an app connected to a raspberrypi plus electric socket to do that. Hmm. 15:58:27 well, for example, I didn 15:58:44 t know until I was in this role that you can do docs in github 15:58:48 sjterp: yeah, the ability to use someone as a model when they're not actively "acting as a teacher" 15:59:03 we have done exercises where we watch a single contributor's threads on a mailing list, or in an irc channel, or through a bug tracker 15:59:06 which opens up participation for ppl who arent' yet coders 15:59:11 because they are doing such a great job of navigating the sociotechnical environ 15:59:19 that's a good idea 15:59:26 +1 15:59:37 the cognitive apprenticeship framework i find super applicable to foss 15:59:59 it's basically a way to describe teaching techniques (that may not be recognized as teaching techniques) that happen in FOSS communities 16:00:13 * glikins1 googles 16:00:15 (originally developed to describe math/reading/etc teaching techniques for K-12, based on watching traditional craft apprenticeships) 16:00:30 glikins1: it's a recurring talk i give at recurse center, happy to do a quickie recap over lunch 16:00:38 should probably write it up someday 16:00:39 but dissertation 16:00:53 oh -- I tlak about that in my talks 16:00:57 but don't call it that 16:00:58 cogapp? 16:01:00 ooo 16:01:06 what do you cll it? 16:02:22 I talk about modeling uncertainty for your students and how important that is -- showing them that not knowing the answers is AOK and showing them *how* to find the answers and hhow to figur eout who to ask and how to think about problems is FAR more valuable than teaching them The Right Answer (because that'll change by the time they're out of school) 16:02:27 yup 16:02:38 cogapp has a couple more specific breakdowns of teaching behaviors 16:02:51 reading 16:03:10 and i've found it helpful to explicitly teach both learners and mentors that language so they can ask each other for what they need 16:06:28 mchua is there a link to cogapp? 16:16:30 avni: the wikipedia page has generic descriptions but the thing i need to write at some point is the application to sw edu 16:21:28 avni: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/bk-2008-0994.ch001 16:22:03 mchua: Yes I can access. thank you! 16:33:06 * mchua has soooo many thoughts on intrinsic motivation research righ tnow 16:33:58 heidie: I get disconnedted as well. 16:34:01 y 16:34:32 it’s both big and small… I run across the same people across communities all the time.. 16:35:10 just reconnected 16:38:11 autonomy, competence, and relatedness: components of self-determination theory (for intrinsic motivation) 16:40:29 heidie: have i shown you my recurse center talk before? 16:40:39 heidie: i think it might be pretty relevant as grounding for some of the things we're discussing right now 16:40:56 heidie: basically, "looking at hackers in foss-ish environments... here's the learning science language that seems to really apply" 16:40:56 mchua, not sure, explain? 16:41:11 Oh, yes, bring it up. 16:41:18 hackers found it a really useful vocab to discribe their learning (so they could then hack it) 16:41:19 *describe 16:41:39 mchua, to the group. 16:41:42 i need ot at some point turn it into an academic presentation/paper and bridge it back 16:41:42 (diiissssertaaaationnnnnnn) 16:41:42 can show briefly at lunch if interested 16:41:50 it's a bit -- semiorthognoal to this discussion 16:41:52 Sure, lunch is fine. 16:41:53 :-) 16:41:54 k 16:45:59 that's an interesting idea: a bussiness app; an HFOSS app; a [design] thing 16:46:09 scratch all the itcehs 16:46:16 (worst typist known) 16:49:24 mchua as an aside, I think scaffolding is the part I don't get 16:49:39 the rest of it I understand (and do, but didn't have names for) 16:50:13 glikins1: right, that's the reaction from most hackers 16:50:17 "ohhhhh there are worrrrrrrrds for this" 16:50:53 learning techniques, motivation, scaffolding progression, community nurturance -- all vocab from research that i basically throw out in my talk as tools to think with 16:52:49 heidie: ok i desperately want to give people language for stuff now 16:52:49 you're talking about dreyfuss right now 16:52:49 also self-regulation theory 16:53:22 (earlier i was talking about anyon's hidden curriculum wrt the "i can change this" paradigm) 16:54:03 mchua: One of the things I say in my "How to offend and insult your open source community" talk is "I believe that giving people language to talk about behaviours is key to seeing them and talking about them 16:55:39 glikins1: right, otherwise there's no way to refer to things 16:58:34 the nice thing about this language is that it ties to a huge body of work/reesarch/applicability/crossover into other fields 17:19:51 thanks glikins1 :-) 17:21:28 heidie: the conversation is getting a little interrupty. not to stop people right now or call it out, but maybe after lunch we can have a convo rules reset 17:21:32 ? 17:21:38 like... talking stick, even 17:21:47 Ah,, right. 17:22:00 thanks :D 17:26:48 noted… 17:30:36 thanks for the reminder mchua 17:31:08 glikins1: it's something we all know, but it does mean everyone has to remember it for it to work... i think we can reset over lunch easily if we come back to that at the start of the afternoon 17:32:20 (honestly I am terrible about it -- in general. And it's worse when I'm passionate) 17:32:27 glikins1: true dat 17:32:29 same here 17:35:09 * mchua wants to break down greg's comment into 2 things 17:35:17 1) expert blind spot 17:35:22 2) students viewing things as contributions or not 17:35:27 ghislop: ^ 17:36:22 mchua: expert blind spot - or just fogetting what’s already installed on their own dev machine. 17:37:18 kwurst: that is a great example of the expert blind spot 18:57:41 mchua is now drawing a MelDiagram(TM) on motivation… 19:36:42 code versus community 19:36:54 we say community first 19:37:06 if you say community first, this all makes sens 19:39:18 github api: https://developer.github.com/v3/ 19:51:24 heidie - good way to onramp people is by "workdays" 19:51:43 glikins1, What is a "workday"? Minihackathon? 19:51:57 yep - but more directed 19:52:09 "we're going to do OVirt docs" 19:52:14 Ah, like a sprint 19:52:17 YES 19:52:20 :-) 19:52:28 or bugsuahing 19:52:32 squashing 19:52:36 Right 19:52:44 so you know you're creating a level playing field 19:53:03 and you have 1-2 community members whose only job is to help ppl get set up 19:53:08 and get unstuck 19:53:32 and the time commitment (real-life or virtual) is worth it to them b/c they are helping 30 ppl at once 19:54:28 (mchua - what is it like at an institution when someone is a researcher and an instructor) 20:06:46 glikins1: with the disclaimer that the event itself needs to be accessible to people 20:07:07 i've been thinking more and more about how hackathons, etc. are next to impossible for students with after school jobs, small children, health issues, etc. to participate in 20:07:23 (not to mention a lot of non-students) 20:07:41 glikins1: what do you mean by that q? 20:07:55 heidie, glikins1: totally agreed with the in-person onramp being vital to bridge the digital comms gap sometimes 20:08:06 Yes, right. 20:08:07 you need to see the facial expression behind the screen, they need to learn how to project themselves into the text medium sometimes 20:08:18 mchua - we were talking about that yesterday -- the fact that hackathons are sometimes hard for ppl wiht kids etc 20:08:34 There have been some good pieces on that yesterday -- glikins1 have you seen Skud's blog post on that for instance? 20:08:37 mchua: agreed - I work with people who don’t have those time resources… was online with one earlier today (wants to be a data scientist, teaching herself, can’t afford to go on a course) 20:08:39 er not yesterday but recently 20:08:53 Right. there's an issue sometimes in communities... "we could do this, so it's therefore available to everyone" 20:09:01 right. you could do it so by definition it worked for you 20:09:21 not recognizing privilege, like girls not having time to play with code b/c they're expected to babysit young siblings etc 20:09:40 or how many conferences provide childcare, or are wheelchair accessible 20:10:11 I think I read skuds piece - 20:10:32 glikins1: i'll find a link just in case 20:10:35 that -- "I did it, so it's easy" -- it kills me 20:10:49 glikins1: was thinking about the nobel prize winning research on what makes a successful commons... gonna pull it up one sec 20:11:19 #link http://infotrope.net/2014/11/28/why-i-dont-like-hackathons-by-alex-bayley-aged-39-12/ 20:12:28 #link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom#Design_principles_for_Common_Pool_Resource_.28CPR.29_institutions 20:12:31 glikins1: ^ 20:18:01 yeah, once I flipped reference models I got it (tragedy of, etc.) I am just not used to that word in this context and thought he might be meaning community 20:23:44 roger. context shifting fun :D 21:19:44 heidie: is that seeing the forest? 21:19:51 (instead of the trees) 21:20:03 the generealization 21:20:03 Yes. 21:20:24 I think so. But there is an understanding component there as well. To know that that "thing" that you're looking at is a forest. 21:20:37 And perhaps that it is a pine forest versus an oak forest. 21:20:40 so: seeing patterns, synthesis 21:20:45 Yes, that too. 21:21:26 is understanding the forest (or naming the type of forest) part of knowing AHA there is a forest 21:22:48 I think they are separate skills 21:23:10 there's seeing "aha - there are a bunch of trees here -- I see a FOREST" 21:23:22 (which is generalization, to me) 21:23:45 and then there's knowing that the forest is pine or oak, which is identifying things 21:25:01 BIg Picture Thinking 21:37:18 * mchua thinks this sometimes depends on learning styles; some people need big picture, some people need clear steps, some people need a combo of both 21:37:29 (some people don't care about big picture, some people don't care about clear steps after a certain point) 21:37:48 (yes -- this was in reference to the definition of what "generalization" means) 21:38:14 and was the reason I said I think the pogil p's do need defining 21:38:27 at least in this context, yeah. or at least "here is what we are using these terms to mean here" 21:38:37 not necessarily "they must mean THUS for ALL PEOPLES FOR ALL TIME" 21:38:42 totally agree that people have different learning (and working) needs 21:39:01 i think it is good to build this in b/c some people will need it. 21:39:06 I am very much a big pic person.... once it gets down to nitty gritty I'm all .... ugh 21:39:22 synthesis and generalization are some of my best things 21:39:37 (hence 18 years in web strategy/IA stuff) 21:53:48 y'all check out the diagram halfway down this page: http://dirkriehle.com/publications/2014-2/the-five-stages-of-open-source-volunteering/ 03:30:35 #endmeeting 14:30:06 #endmeeting