13:59:16 <mchua> #startmeeting
13:59:16 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep 15 13:59:16 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:59:16 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
13:59:22 <mchua> #meetingname POSSE curriculum hacking
13:59:22 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'posse_curriculum_hacking'
13:59:26 <paulproteus> mchua: Awesome
13:59:41 <paulproteus> http://penn.openhatch.org/ is the mini student-oriented POSSE I'm running at U Penn in a few days.
13:59:46 <mchua> #chair paulproteus
13:59:46 <zodbot> Current chairs: mchua paulproteus
13:59:52 <mchua> paulproteus: feel free to #note and #action and #link away
13:59:57 <paulproteus> We'd love to have a fork of the POSSE teaching material.
14:00:01 <mchua> #link http://mchua.fedorapeople.org/posse/notes/posse-curriculum.JPG
14:00:06 <mchua> #link http://penn.openhatch.org
14:00:40 <mchua> #note Mel's objective for the day: fork the upstream POSSE curriculum, such as it is, for the specific South Africa POSSE instance, pushing patches upstream as I can.
14:01:11 <mchua> #note Mel's finish time: 3:30pm (I'll wrap up notes and such afterwards, but that's when I stop and say "I have something to present to TOS!")
14:01:30 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_South_Africa
14:01:56 <mchua> My first action here is going to be to transcribe that posse-curriculum.JPG onto the TOS wiki so we have a text upstream to work on, and so I review the same material again and get my mind in the right shape.
14:02:35 * mchua will be wandering in and out of IRC all day in case she needs to walk around the building to think more deeply, eat, etc. but will always return here and update
14:02:48 <mchua> paulproteus: anything i can unblock ya on for starters? what're you aiming at for the day?
14:03:16 <paulproteus> http://asheesh.org/scratch/Penn_open_source_hackathon has the sketchy notes we have on Saturday
14:03:56 <paulproteus> We're aiming for each topic to be taught in 30 min of teaching/reading/lecture/discussion, then 30 minutes of try-things-out.
14:04:27 <paulproteus> Then you rotate to the next topic.
14:04:50 <paulproteus> (a) a sanity-check of that model, and (b) suggestions for hands-on activities we can suggest people try
14:05:22 <paulproteus> For 30 minutes to work, we'd really have to have some nicely streamlined exercises, or something.
14:05:41 <paulproteus> There's also more time Sunday to play with things, but I want people to get a sense of the interactive possibilities within each "module".
14:05:44 <paulproteus> Those are my thoughts -- what are yours?
14:06:33 <paulproteus> Yo. We're in a meeting here where Mel and I are talking about her South Africa POSSE, and I'm talking about our Penn event.
14:06:41 <paulproteus> And it's logged, for posterity's benefit.
14:06:47 <paulproteus> Mel can say more.
14:06:53 <ymasory_> when's that
14:06:58 * paulproteus gets back to some hacking
14:07:08 <paulproteus> http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_South_Africa has the skinny on her event.
14:07:12 <paulproteus> Mel -- any chance you can come to our event, BTW?
14:09:56 <mchua> paulproteus: when's it again?
14:10:05 <paulproteus> 10 days, a week and a half
14:10:13 <paulproteus> "Pretty soon" |:
14:10:52 <mchua> paulproteus: argh, no, sorry
14:11:00 <paulproteus> Aw well, thought I'd ask. (-:
14:11:09 <mchua> paulproteus: if you catch me on irc while you're doing it though I'll wave hello!
14:11:22 <mchua> #link http://blog.melchua.com/2010/09/15/practicing-what-you-teach-first-followup-on-fedora-classroom-on-distributed-collaboration-tools/
14:11:24 <paulproteus> mchua: That'll be good for something (-:
14:11:46 <mchua> paulproteus, ymasory_ : ^ managed to teach etherpad and irc in a hour yesterday and it worked real well, read the log and see if you want to do a repeat
14:11:55 <mchua> it was basically "POSSE Day 1: CONDENSED"
14:12:03 <paulproteus> That's pretty rocking.
14:48:34 <mchua> paulproteus: I'm hacking upstream at http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_curriculum
14:48:45 <paulproteus> b
14:48:49 <paulproteus> (thumbs up)
14:49:02 <mchua> Now that I have a template to apply to the rest of the days, they should be considerably faster.
14:49:15 * mchua is the sort of person who takes a long time to gear up, but goes like a maniac once she does
14:49:26 <mchua> You can see the general structure there, though.
17:13:34 <mchua> All righty, lunch break over.
17:13:42 <mchua> Goal for next spurt: TRANSCRIBE THE REST OF THE WHITEBOARD!!!
17:13:48 <mchua> once it's in that format it's really easy for me to adapt to POSSE SA
17:13:54 * mchua spends 4 hours sharpening the saw, 1 hour cutting the tree
17:14:05 <mchua> because I want to cut a lot of trees this summer :D
17:16:48 <mchua> paulproteus: how goes the sprinting?
17:17:24 <paulproteus> mchua: Joining you in ca. 15 min
17:18:01 <mchua> hooyah.
17:35:10 <paulproteus> mchua: yo
17:35:27 <paulproteus> I'm starting my work now.
17:35:34 <paulproteus> First stop, reading through http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_curriculum carefully
17:38:05 <paulproteus> mchua: I don't see much content at http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_curriculum except for "Monday"
17:38:31 <vabz> ananyones there?
17:38:38 <paulproteus> vabz: Sure, hi there.
17:38:49 <vabz> i'm kinda new to this room
17:38:54 <vabz> can u introduce
17:39:05 <paulproteus> Sure -- have you been to teachingopensource.org? That explains the project generally.
17:47:48 <mchua> paulproteus: right, I'm filling that in as I sprint
17:47:54 <mchua> paulproteus: just put up http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_curriculum#Tuesday
17:47:58 * mchua gets faster with each successive day
17:48:11 <paulproteus> Is this the first time the curriculum has been written down?
17:48:15 <mchua> paulproteus: I'm working from http://mchua.fedorapeople.org/posse/notes/posse-curriculum.JPG
17:48:17 <paulproteus> Just trying to get a sense of what you're working with.
17:48:35 <mchua> paulproteus: In this sort of detailed format, yes - I'm trying to make the curriculum more and more readable with each pass.
17:48:38 <paulproteus> b
17:48:49 <mchua> such that someone who's taught before and is familiar with FOSS can look at it and go "okay, yes, this structure makes sense and these resources are useful"
17:49:12 <mchua> as opposed to "Mel has scribbled down enough notes to enable her to remember how to teach a POSSE, but everyone else looks at them and goes 'whuh? not comprehensible'"
17:49:19 <mchua> It's not there yet, but it's *better*
17:49:22 * paulproteus nods.
17:49:40 <mchua> paulproteus: I think this pass is enough for someone like you to be able to give it a shot and give good criticism on what needs to be filled in along the way.
17:49:57 <mchua> paulproteus: I think your workshop would benefit the most from the first few days (in order) so I'm doing them in that order
17:50:01 <mchua> day #1 (monday) being the most vital
17:50:10 <mchua> day #2-3 being pretty important
17:50:19 <mchua> days #4-5 being things you'll probably want to ignore for now because of time constraints
17:50:45 <mchua> paulproteus: do you have an idea of what each day focuses on (and why I'm saying you might want to look at days 1, and then 2-3) or should I try to explain here?
17:50:52 * mchua isn't sure how much she's externalized this from her brain
17:50:55 <mchua> brraaaainnnzzzz.
17:50:58 <mchua> *zombie walk*
17:51:15 <paulproteus> I'm reading your blog posts now, so I'm not even at reading the Tuesday section yet
17:51:20 <paulproteus> So I'll ping you if I have questions
17:51:36 <mchua> paulproteus: Yessir.
17:51:38 <mchua> Ok!
17:51:57 <mchua> paulproteus: The basic idea is that each of the 5 days is one word in "open source development & teaching"
17:52:07 <paulproteus> day 4 is "and"?
17:52:10 <mchua> so day 1 is open, 2 is source, 3 is development...
17:52:13 <mchua> yep, "development, continued"
17:52:17 <paulproteus> hah
17:52:18 <paulproteus> fine
17:52:24 * mchua blames ctyler and humph
17:53:14 <mchua> paulproteus: btw, if you can ask me q's before 3:30 that'd be great b/c I unofficially "stop sprinting" then, and may get distracted afterwards.
17:53:34 <paulproteus> thumbs up
17:55:24 <paulproteus> Hey CanoeBerry. (-:
17:57:36 <ctyler> mchua: paulproteus: yeah, we figured the 'development' bit would take two days, and it seems to. Sorry for the acromess :-)
17:57:58 <paulproteus> It's funny, 'cause I want to clone your week into one day. :P
17:58:27 <ctyler> =:o
17:58:45 * ctyler suspects dead students all over the floor
17:59:11 <paulproteus> Uh oh.
17:59:15 <paulproteus> I mean, we could narrow the focus...
17:59:50 <paulproteus> http://asheesh.org/scratch/Penn_open_source_hackathon is my current scratchy notes
17:59:58 * ctyler will follow this with interest
18:00:20 <ctyler> It will depend on how you scope it and what the starting level is.
18:00:36 <paulproteus> That depends on our applicants and who we select, for one thing.
18:00:52 <paulproteus> c.f. http://penn.openhatch.org/ if you haven't seen it yet, ctyler
18:05:31 <mchua> paulproteus: I wonder if some of the materials you're making here would be good for the Olin folks to reuse at their Etherpad FAD, for the new hackers that come in
18:05:35 <mchua> paulproteus: it's just 2 weeks later
18:05:47 <paulproteus> Likely enough
18:06:00 <mchua> paulproteus: sdziallas_afk can hook you up with computercolin when he comes back in, but if you're going to blog or something that might be useful to see as well
18:06:06 * mchua sends the guys an email with your link
18:06:12 <mchua> paulproteus: they pinged you about the FAD? I told them you were local now
18:06:17 <paulproteus> Yup!
18:06:23 <mchua> w00t.
18:06:38 <paulproteus> I personally find all the Fedora rebranding of things weird and distasteful.
18:06:46 <paulproteus> FAD == hackathon, so why not call it that?
18:07:23 <paulproteus> Or at least "activity day".
18:07:26 <paulproteus> FAD is totally opaque.
18:07:29 <paulproteus> </grumble>
18:09:58 <NeoPhyte_Rep> FAD == TLA
18:10:06 <NeoPhyte_Rep> Down with TLAs
18:10:10 <paulproteus> Oh, NeoPhyte_Rep -- are you the lovely person from the mailing list? (-:
18:10:40 <NeoPhyte_Rep> I hope that's a complement, but yes.
18:10:45 <paulproteus> It is. (-:
18:11:20 * mchua is working within the Fedora conventions, but does agree that "FAD" is wayyyy less readable than "Activity Day"
18:11:24 <NeoPhyte_Rep> TLA == Three Letter Acronym (In case you didn't understand.)
18:11:33 <mchua> I usually expand the acronym when I'm talking with someone from outside Fedora.
18:11:59 <paulproteus> Can you also ask the wiki users to stop using FAD?
18:11:59 * mchua prefers "activity day" to "hackathon" b/c the latter term tends to scare away noncoders, IME
18:12:10 <NeoPhyte_Rep> mchua: Expansion is good practice in my opinion (IMO).
18:12:28 <paulproteus> mchua: I agree... I'll ask Yuri if we can s/Hackathon/Activity Day/ on the Penn event
18:12:39 <mchua> paulproteus: you're talking large-scale social engineering... tbh, I haven't done it myself since I know I don't have the bandwidth/stamina to actually make that term change stick.
18:13:00 <mchua> that's why I'm trying to expand the acronym instead of replace it
18:13:07 <paulproteus> Sure, expand is fine.
18:13:26 <paulproteus> mchua: Remember how when we talked at the Acetarium a few months ago, you asked, "What are the little things that make me dislike Fedora and feel like it's closed?"
18:13:31 <mchua> paulproteus: Yep yep.
18:13:34 <mchua> That's one, I'm guessing. :)
18:13:46 <paulproteus> This FAD acronym <grumble>and general rebranding of everything</grumble> is a +10 in that count.
18:13:57 * mchua is glad you point those things out, btw, because I've gotten used to them and don't realize them oftentimes
18:14:12 <paulproteus> Does Fedora have a "things that Asheesh hates" bug tracker?
18:14:15 <paulproteus> Oh, maybe it's on bugzilla.redhat.com.
18:14:19 <paulproteus> I *hate* that. +25
18:14:38 <mchua> paulproteus: why?
18:14:41 <paulproteus> If you're your own project, get your own bug tracker.
18:14:43 * mchua has guesses, but is curious
18:14:57 <paulproteus> Some "community" project.
18:15:19 <paulproteus> bugs.debian.org is probably hosted by HP or something, but it's within the debian.org domain.
18:15:31 <mchua> I think that's more historical legacy than anything else, but I do wonder how much it would take to swap the domain over.
18:15:34 <mchua> Probably not much.
18:15:39 <mchua> ...technically speaking.
18:15:45 <mchua> (not sure about the social engineering part)
18:16:10 <paulproteus> <troll seriousness="half">The social part is hard because you guys only pretend to care about looking separate from RedHat.</troll>
18:16:10 <mchua> I mean, moving a bugtracker is a big thing... we did that for mailing lists last release (so this sort of thing is the sort of thing Fedora /is/ incrementally working on)
18:16:15 <mchua> from redhat domain to fedoraproject domain
18:16:33 <paulproteus> Is it a known bug somewhere, that you can at least point me to?
18:16:37 <mchua> and that was a pretty big shift, done very carefully by a bunch of infrastructure volunteers that spent, I think, literally full weeks on it
18:16:56 <paulproteus> Like Launchpad bug #1 (-;
18:17:11 <mchua> paulproteus: not that I know of, but people in #fedora-admin might know... I think it's just the sort of thing that nobody's stepped up to say "we should do this! I will make sure it happens!" and stuck around to push through.
18:17:17 <mchua> That's my guess, anyhow.
18:17:22 <paulproteus> If you file the bug, I'll be happy.
18:17:57 <mchua> paulproteus: tell you what - I'll finish typing Wednesday's curriculum and get that posted, since that's just a few more min of work, and then I'll take a break and head to #fedora-admin and ask what it'd take to make that happen, and where it should be file.
18:18:01 <mchua> er, filed.
18:18:05 <paulproteus> mchua: <3
18:18:38 <mchua> paulproteus: Thanks for challenging my thinking.
18:18:42 <mchua> (and our habits)
18:18:57 <paulproteus> Thanks for being willing to be a target of my anger and redirect it somewhere useful!
18:19:26 <paulproteus> mchua: POSSEs -- do you have slides? What's the hour-by-hour breakdown of one?
18:25:53 <mchua> paulproteus: No slides.
18:26:04 <mchua> paulproteus: No schedule yet, that's what I'll be doing after I finish all 5 days
18:26:11 <mchua> paulproteus: (the schedule for South Africa, anyhow)
18:26:18 <paulproteus> But how did they work before? is what I want to know too
18:26:21 <paulproteus> You just stood up there and talked and took questions?
18:26:26 <mchua> what I'm trying to do right now is the equivalent of providing source code for the class (which we currently ship 'as a binary')
18:26:37 <mchua> paulproteus: no, we had a focus/topics/learning objective for each day
18:26:45 <paulproteus> b
18:26:58 <mchua> and then based on that, and based on who was there and what tools/visitors we had available, we made the day's schedule (usually the night before)
18:27:12 <mchua> so I'm not sure how useful it would be to tell you our specific schedule from the past, quite honestly
18:27:25 <paulproteus> It really would be, honestly.
18:27:28 <mchua> but if you look at... actually, the RIT POSSE had a pretty decent schedule outline
18:27:32 <paulproteus> Oh, great.
18:27:39 <mchua> paulproteus: actually, look at the RIT or Worcester POSSE IRC logs
18:27:51 <mchua> they should be clearly marked with timestamps (the meeting notes will tell you at what time we hit what topic)
18:27:58 <paulproteus> Cool, great to know.
18:28:01 <mchua> paulproteus: does that makes sense? that'll give you a back-figured schedule with not much effort
18:28:10 <paulproteus> Yup, I'm satisfied. (-:
18:28:41 <mchua> paulproteus: example - http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teachingopensource/2010-06-14/posse_rit_monday.2010-06-14-12.13.html has topic lists and timestamps
18:28:45 * mchua goes to finish transcribing weds
18:29:03 <paulproteus> So they ran from 1 PM to 6 PM
18:29:06 <paulproteus> (at least, Mon)
18:29:15 <paulproteus> Oh, UTC. Um.
18:29:35 <paulproteus> RIT... UTC - 4 during summer.. you guys started at 9 AM and went to 2. Okay. (-:
18:37:46 <mchua> paulproteus: http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_curriculum#Wednesday
18:37:52 <mchua> Okay, off to ask about your bug :)
18:41:45 <paulproteus> See, they don't actually care.
18:41:49 <paulproteus> That's fine, but that's the way things are.
18:41:56 <paulproteus> It's not even a known bug.
18:42:01 <paulproteus> Anyway, back to wiki-ing.
18:46:54 <paulproteus> <mmcgrath> it's not that we can't do it, we've made the decision not to.
18:46:57 <paulproteus> bingo -- WONTFIX
18:47:11 * paulproteus sighs and moves on with his life.
18:54:47 <mchua> paulproteus: So, I wanted to get a gauge for what the old hands in #fedora-admin were thinking.
18:54:54 <mchua> The fact that they say WONTFIX doesn't mean it's impossible.
18:55:00 <mchua> It just means *they* wontfix right now.
18:55:24 <mchua> But I've got enough to go on for a blog post with a little research that can poke at this assumption more from a slightly different angle.
18:55:41 <mchua> paulproteus: Might take me a while to post it (not tonight, almost certainly - swamped) but I'll want to run it by you before I do.
18:58:33 <paulproteus> Okay.
22:55:26 * mchua goes to finish her sprint
22:55:27 <mchua> 2 more days.
23:52:25 <mchua> WOOOOO! DONE WITH CURRICULUM
23:52:35 <mchua> paulproteus: http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_curriculum
23:52:39 <mchua> ctyler: ^
23:52:46 <mchua> quaid: ^^ spevack ^^ ianweller ^^
23:52:56 * mchua is potentially slightly too excited about this
23:53:04 * mchua pushes to the TOS list
23:53:10 <mchua> #note remaining to do: fill in readings
23:53:11 <ymasory> mchua congrats. i guess we'll be the first to use this
23:59:31 <mchua> ymasory: That would be great :)
23:59:45 <mchua> ymasory: notes and feedback super super welcome, I have no idea how useful this is to other people.
23:59:48 * mchua wraps logs
23:59:49 <mchua> #endmeetig
23:59:52 <mchua> #endmeeting