12:20:24 #startmeeting 12:20:24 Meeting started Tue Jun 15 12:20:24 2010 UTC. The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 12:20:24 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 12:20:30 #meetingname POSSE RIT Tuesday 12:20:30 The meeting name has been set to 'posse_rit_tuesday' 12:20:46 #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_RIT#Tuesday 12:39:24 mchua: sup 12:39:42 ganderson: ceilingcat 12:39:47 mchua: sdown 12:39:53 ganderson: floorcat 12:40:02 I'm done :P 12:40:05 ganderson: the answer is always *cat 12:40:12 mchua: should we have a flash drive today? D: 12:40:17 ganderson: Nopes. 12:40:27 mchua: ** Nopescat. 12:42:42 mchua: should we expand the square? 12:42:51 ganderson: aha! you've learned the invisible s/*/\1cat in my head. 12:43:02 ctyler: poss...ibly. 12:43:02 Good morning everyone 12:43:18 morning KarlieRobinson 12:43:37 So everyone is in Rochester, but I'm in Des Moines IA 12:43:55 Sorry that I couldn't be there 12:44:04 if i'm using my own computer, should i download fedora? 12:44:51 * pfroehlich waves groggily 12:48:14 Andrea_H: do you have the VirtualBox image? 12:48:32 ganderson: yes 12:48:50 mchua: also...shouldn't it be 's/(*)/\1cat'? :) 12:50:06 Andrea_H: You can either run Fedora on your computer in a virtual machine, or have 2 laptops (your own, and a thinkpad) - that's probably easiest 12:50:09 #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/Planet 12:50:57 @mchua: thanks. I'll try the virtual box first. 12:51:07 made it 12:51:09 ah it's JonSchull! 12:51:12 #chair posse_projector 12:51:12 Current chairs: mchua posse_projector 12:51:16 #chair ctyler 12:51:16 Current chairs: ctyler mchua posse_projector 12:51:22 #chair lmacken 12:51:22 Current chairs: ctyler lmacken mchua posse_projector 12:51:46 We're getting everyone in the channel, as remotees can tell. 12:51:51 good morning 12:51:55 * pfroehlich snores 12:52:05 (morning, pfroehlich - you're on the big screen. ;) 12:52:21 posse_projector: oh, well, then I will pretend to be awake :_D 12:52:41 * mchua is happy to see folks from last week hanging out! the blog posts hitting planet reflecting on last week == also *awesome* 12:52:56 morning gary_at_RIT 12:53:17 morning 12:53:47 mchua: so how are the current blog posts? :-D 12:54:03 mornin' ssweet 12:54:52 ganderson: good morning to you. hope you're doing well this fine morning 12:54:53 http://planet.fedoraproject.org/ # Fedora Planet 12:56:14 morning y'all 12:58:01 morining quaid 12:58:16 mchua: you still connected here? 12:58:20 Grrrrrrr Internal server error for blog on tos planet. Suggestions? 12:58:27 * pfroehlich has read all your blogs, yay! :-D 12:59:11 mchua: so tell me how you plan to abuse publican today? 13:00:09 KarlieRobinson: Howdy 13:00:32 RITSteve: check your address -- I had a similar problem becuase I had "feed" instead of "http" 13:00:58 mchua, ctyler: so is it sugar or fedora they are working on? can't really tell from over here 13:00:59 mprppr: Edited that out this am . Will double check 13:01:53 mprppr: must be the planet needs to refresh at the server to record the change 13:02:04 Hi RITSteve 13:03:20 hey KarlieRobinson 13:03:34 Hi gary_at_RIT 13:04:02 It's so weird knowing you're all about a mile from my house, yet I'm in another time zone 13:04:26 KarlieRobinson: huh? :P 13:04:50 #link http://betterexplained.com/articles/a-visual-guide-to-version-control/ 13:04:56 I'm giving a training in a few hours in West Des Moines IA 13:05:00 ahh 13:05:05 #link http://betterexplained.com/articles/intro-to-distributed-version-control-illustrated/ 13:05:06 hello, KarlieRobinson! Want to introduce yourself? 13:05:06 I don't fly home till tomorrow afternoon 13:05:14 Yes posse_projector 13:05:18 pfroehlich: Both. 13:05:24 pfroehlich: We'll move more towards the Sugar-hat direction today. 13:05:33 If you couldn't guess by my screen name, I'm Karlie Robinson 13:05:34 pfroehlich: the blog posts are great, btw :) 13:05:52 I've been called the most influential Hactivist in WNY 13:06:04 http://righteouspictures.com/web/ 13:06:12 Which means I'm a professional Busy-body in the FOSS world 13:06:46 I helped RITSteve get his FOSS Class started 13:06:59 and I generally poke my nose in when I can 13:07:24 KarlieRobinson: We'll see you at FOSSCon and dinner on Thursday? :) 13:07:26 I also live just across the river from RIT 13:07:35 Yes, and the guys want to come if that's ok 13:07:51 mchua: the boys have been asking about you 13:08:19 You're becoming the Cool aunt who lives out of town 13:08:23 KarlieRobinson: I'm looking forward to seeing them! 13:08:31 #topic OLPC impact video 13:08:58 #link http://righteouspictures.com/web/ 13:09:08 pfroehlich: I merged the patches last night... had to resolve a conflict in audiograb.py... 13:09:14 #info We're watching the trailer right now, as a scene-setting thing for why we're doing what we're doing here. 13:09:25 * KarlieRobinson is going off topic for a moment 13:09:34 anyone want Iowa Cow Tipping shirts?\ 13:09:37 KarlieRobinson: That's perfectly all right, it's what backchannel is for. :) 13:09:40 KarlieRobinson: ...I'm tempted. 13:09:47 email me with your order and I'll get them tomorrow on the way out of town 13:10:56 mchua has my email. Just tell me the size you want and we'll settle up at Dinner Thursday 13:11:06 :D 13:16:16 Karlie Rocks! :-) 13:16:48 rocks and tips cows? 13:17:14 morning, quaid! 13:17:26 walterbender: yeah, sorry, I took out a bunch of redundant stuff in one of my commits :-./ 13:17:30 nice timing, after this I was going to give people a crash course in git and publican (by way of showing them build systems) 13:17:35 quaid: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Documentation_SOP is what I want to walk through 13:17:54 got it thanks, I finally looked up the agenda :) 13:18:53 quaid: so if you want to introduce yourself (since they don't know who you are yet) - type here, I'll pull it up when the video's done - 13:19:04 ok 13:19:10 quaid: ...and give a short description of what Publican is, and how, say, documentation teams use it, why you'd use it instead of word docs or whatever - that'd be awesome 13:19:14 posse_projector: hi everyone 13:19:30 I'll take chance to intro myself while everyone is distracted so you won't interrupt my flow of cool words 13:19:45 mchua: sdz's links don't work :-/ 13:20:00 pfroehlich: I'll go through and fix them, checking now. 13:20:05 ah yeah, we uploaded the docs to different places 13:20:08 pfroehlich: those changes were fine... I had just had a bunch of debugging statements I needed to move 13:20:20 heh, not fast enough for IRC :) 13:20:47 ok, I'm a colleague of Mel's, both working on Red Hat's community leadership team 13:20:50 pfroehlich: try again? 13:21:12 I've been with RHT for the last 9 years in a bunch of different roles, and over that time I've also been a Fedora contributor 13:21:38 I was an early Fedora Docs team member and lead the team for several years until I finally got myself replaced *whew* 13:22:30 so in reference to today, I've been a technical writer using DocBook XML for 7+ years 13:22:51 What's DocBook XML? 13:22:51 and worked with the team that founded redhat.com/docs, which is the team that now produces Publican, as well as setting the Fedora Docs standards 13:22:58 And Publican? :) 13:23:13 and all of that is a platform that Sugar's documentationk is able to stand on from the start 13:23:31 mchua: hey, this is a personal intro, can't be expected to solve everything in one sentence ! 13:23:54 actually, I'm ready for that, if we're ready with Q&A 13:23:58 so I don't go too far, too fast :) 13:24:07 #topic Fun With Publican 13:24:43 DocBook XML is a subset of XML, and is a series of tags (~400?) and tools for producing documents 13:25:14 the basic idea is that you can have a document in a single source (XML) where you focus on content fidelity and don't worry about style/output formats. 13:25:36 when you are ready to make a document, you render the XML to an output format - HTML, PDF, Epub, TXT, etc. 13:26:12 the XML can be read directly by some programs, which is useful; and those same programs can use the DocBook XML styling elements to produce a fairly clean, simple book 13:26:28 an example of this is 'yelp' 13:26:38 in Fedora (GNOME), if you go to System > Help 13:26:42 quaid: how does docbook xml compare to latex? 13:27:00 the program that comes up is 'yelp' and it can render XML natively, such as under Other Documentation 13:27:17 @quaid: What do I use to generate the XML doc? 13:27:19 ganderson: fundamentally, the idea is the same 13:27:25 RITSteve: a plain text editor 13:27:36 or any editor that can produce plain ASCII 13:28:04 so I use Emacs (which has great XML modes to help editing), others use vi/Vim, Kate, GEdit 13:28:22 there is a nice plugin for Eclipse :) .. and other IDEs have support for it 13:29:08 ganderson: I'm not clear historically why the RHT team chose XML of LaTeX 13:29:26 it was actually SGML back then, and I suspect it was "easier" to work with 13:29:47 it's one of those tooling decisions that is hard to reverse, if you ever want to (which we haven't) 13:29:51 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Documentation_SOP#Viewing_the_Documentation 13:30:20 Publican is a tool for testing and building documents that are i) in DocBook XML, and ii) are formatted to Publican's standards. 13:30:26 quaid: I'm going to start walking them through the exercise up on the screen 13:30:34 quaid: but keep going - they can pay attention here, or there, whichever one helps more :) 13:30:41 @quaid: So I'm writing in (or saving to) plain ASCCI so that I lose any formatting, then I take the accii file and run it through yelp? When does it get formatted in its final form 13:30:50 Publican has standards so that the RHT content services team and translation teams can work more effectively, so it allows a subset of DocBook 13:31:15 RITSteve: so, if you have a basic XML file that is formatted correctly 13:31:16 quaid: mel is about to start the walkthrough of the checkout/build 13:31:19 Yelp will read it as-is 13:31:47 if you want to build a book 13:32:15 there are a number of command line (and other) tools to build, mostly using a series of XML parsing tools (XSLT, etc.) 13:32:16 Clone? 13:32:30 Go to applications>SystemTools>Terminal 13:33:15 DaveScolloquy: Yep, clone - 13:33:17 "make a copy" 13:33:23 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Documentation_SOP 13:33:24 that is what Publican uses under the covers - XSLT and so forth 13:34:11 then in the Terminal, enter this command (as supplied by the link above): git clone git://git.sugarlabs.org/soas-docs/mainline.git soas-docs 13:34:38 RITSteve: once the XML files are there and the publican.cfg is created, with all of it formatted the way Publican likes it, you run e.g.: 13:34:58 'publican build --lang=en-US --formats=html' 13:34:59 quaid: one sec - some folks just realized they need to be running not-Windows to do this :) 13:35:09 the --lang is a list of languages, --formats is a list of formats, seperated by commas 13:35:21 well 13:35:27 or be ssh'd in to a non-windows machine, yeah 13:36:20 quaid: we're backing up a step here, not everyone has or is logged in to the Fedora image 13:36:41 sure thing :) 13:36:55 I feel like I'm a bit too far as it is, considering there is a lot more in there ... 13:36:59 so glad not to lose people 13:37:12 here's a crazy thought though ... 13:37:28 go for it, quaid! 13:37:32 do you have a solution for the needs for Fedora? 13:37:52 you going to boot live images from a virt of somekind? 13:38:37 quaid: we have pre-flashed laptops, some folks just brought their own and didn't realize they needed a Fedora environment 13:38:40 quaid: so we're all set 13:38:48 #info Step 1: Start the Fedora environment and log in 13:38:49 otherwise, you can download PuTTY for the Windows machines and let folks shell in to Fedora machines. 13:38:53 ok 13:39:25 yes, it will help if you've got the git repo cloned so you can see the Publican docs 13:39:33 #info Step 2: Start a terminal by selecting the menu option: Applications>System Tools>Terminal 13:39:48 * quaid is surprised directories are checked in with " " in the name, but that is a level above Publican's needs so it must not care ... 13:40:33 #info Step 3: Type this command: git clone git://git.sugarlabs.org/soas-docs/mainline.git soas-docs 13:40:38 ctyler: sorry, I should have checked environments first thing in the morning... 13:40:52 (into the terminal window that you've opened ^ ) 13:41:02 we'll pause here until we get everyone synced up 13:41:29 that sounds like a chance to start up my "oatmeal environment" 13:41:54 * quaid explains for those in the audience that he is in California 13:41:55 mchua: I think this would be best demonstrated -- you could put your machine in mirror mode and demo the steps 13:42:11 ctyler: Yeah, I'm going to just demo right now 13:43:31 mchua: lockstep 13:43:36 show us one step as we do it 13:44:11 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Documentation_SOP 13:47:00 #info Step 4: type "ls" (list files) -- you should see a list of folders, including one named "soas-docs" (alternately, you can use the "liveuser's Home" icon on the desktop to browse the soas-docs directory) 13:48:20 #info Step 5: If you want to take a look at the files, you can open one of the XML files by clicking on it in the graphical viewer, or opening an editor from the command line 13:48:55 You can edit the text in any of these files if you choose. 13:49:01 * quaid checks to see what happens in GUI mode with viewing 13:49:51 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Documentation_SOP 13:50:02 when I click on it in the graphical viewer ... nothing completes here 13:50:21 * quaid has a strange default for XML it appears 13:50:25 #info In the graphical view, you may need to right-click and open it with GEdit 13:50:39 ha 13:50:45 quaid: same thing here, needs a right-click apparently 13:51:01 yeah, and if you send it to Firefox, for exames 13:51:03 example 13:51:24 it doesn't know what to do with "Customization Guide" and tries to load tvguide.com/Filename.xml 13:51:30 that is, the " " space 13:51:44 mchua: maybe use an absolute path? /home/liveuser/soas-docs/Creation\ Kit 13:52:26 #info Step 6: In the terminal, change into the directory containing the document we want to build: cd "soas-docs/Creation Kit" 13:53:08 or 'cd soas-docs/Creation\ Kit 13:54:18 #info Step 7: build the PDF of the US English version of the documentation: publican build --format=pdf --lang=en-US 13:54:49 PDF building is the most sensitive 13:55:06 an HTML build will ignore a stray ',' that will break a PDF build 13:55:10 There may be warnings about missing PDFs or fonts, you can successfully complete the build without them 13:55:23 yes, as long as no ERROR comes to stop it all 13:55:35 and it throws some mighty warnings, but yep, don't worry 13:56:35 annnnd once you've run the publican command, you can view the output PDF in evince! --> type: evince /home/liveuser/soas-docs/Creation\ Kit/tmp/en-US/pdf/Sugar_on_a_Stick-3-Creation_Kit-en-US.pdf 13:56:53 I'm having trouble getting down past the creation kid directory 13:56:56 kit 13:57:26 Dave_S: were you able to run the publican command? 13:58:01 no 13:58:30 Dave_S: did you make a change to the xml file, yet? 13:58:37 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Documentation_SOP 13:58:41 yes 13:59:27 Dave_S: okay so you need to change to the directory with the publican config 13:59:39 Dave_S : type: cd /home/liveuser/soas-docs/Creation\ Kit 14:00:03 rgr 14:00:06 Dave_S: then type: publican build --format=pdf --lang=en-US 14:00:16 #info Step 7: find and open the pdf: evince tmp/en-US/*pdf -- or use the graphical viewer 14:00:21 Dave_S: and after that command runs type: evince /home/liveuser/soas-docs/Creation\ Kit/tmp/en-US/pdf/Sugar_on_a_Stick-3-Creation_Kit-en-US.pdf 14:01:05 Dave_S: work? :D 14:01:16 workingon it 14:01:45 ctyler: you may want to pull and correct that last #info step 14:02:03 quaid: Most of the folks in the classroom have successfully built their PDF 14:02:12 quaid: oops, what did I do? 14:02:17 s/\*pdf/\pdf\/*pdf/ 14:02:27 it's a tmp/en-US/pdf/*pdf 14:02:32 getting No such file or directory 14:02:35 ah, thanks 14:02:48 Dave_S: no such file for the 'evince' command? 14:02:52 or the 'publican build'? 14:02:55 #info Step 7: CORRECTION: find and open the pdf: evince tmp/en-US/pdf/*pdf -- or use the graphical viewer 14:03:03 I have not gotten to do the build yet 14:03:06 ok 14:03:14 cant get to the correct directory apparently 14:03:25 yeah, it's maybe the space in the name 14:03:42 what directory are you in? 14:03:43 'pwd' 14:03:47 to find out 14:03:48 Dave_S: if you wave at me, I'll come take a look! 14:03:49 soas.docs 14:03:55 Yes 14:04:17 ok,let's do that, in person will solve it faster :) 14:04:23 for those first using IRC ... 14:04:36 this kind of thing happens all the time, needing to work something out that is a relatively simple error 14:04:53 often we'll use a paste site, where we can paste multiple lines of output without disrupting the channel. 14:05:00 e.g. http://fpaste.org 14:05:21 #info Step 8: you can create a "patch" containing your changes: git diff >creation-kit-patch.patch 14:06:15 k looks like i'v got the build now 14:06:48 @mchua: totally in the weeds 14:06:48 You can then go and look at the patch file -- you'll see that it's recorded just the changes between what you cloned with GIT and the current state of the files 14:07:03 Dave_S: okay...now do: evince tmp/en-US/pdf/*pdf 14:07:09 evince tmp/en-US/pdf/*pdf 14:07:33 in the terminal :P 14:07:40 ya 14:07:43 urk 14:08:00 RITSteve: are you stuck? 14:08:01 k now says unable to open document 14:08:09 booo brt 14:08:38 People have made patch files!!! 14:08:51 2QUAID: finally got the pdf, now trying to catch up 14:08:58 roger 14:11:00 patch file create woot! 14:11:52 next up... interactive rebasing with git! ;) 14:12:05 lmacken: yeah, you can do that one :P 14:12:17 Morning. 14:14:17 lmacken: interactive rebasing..? D: *cries* 14:18:13 ganderson: I love it. Being able to re-write history and generate patches that make you look like a ninja :) 14:18:56 I'd rather do _anything_ in git than any other SCM, even cook lunch. 14:18:57 We are now emailing our patch files to each other and applying someone else's patchfile to our repo. 14:19:04 cool 14:19:11 #info Step 9: exchange patches with a partner 14:19:31 quaid: I'd actually like to hear how this sort of workflow fits into a bigger project 14:19:38 Fedora Docs, for instance... how you do things, how you coordinate 14:19:52 quaid: ...do you have skype? (even audio?) or... ctyler, fedora talk maybe? 14:19:57 * mchua is really bad at audio stuff, for obvious reasons 14:20:03 hmm 14:20:20 I'd like to dial Karsten in somehow if we can, since I'm not sure how many folks are catching the text here (which is great) 14:20:26 #info Step 10: apply your partner's patch: patch -p0 ironically I did a screencast the other day that i) sucks and ii) isn't for external consuption 14:20:35 quaid: darn 14:20:42 um, skype is not allowed :) 14:21:00 quaid: ...yeah, I know, I just don't have any other suggestions 14:21:13 so ... 14:21:23 mchua: can you scroll the screen to the patch command 14:21:30 pls? 14:21:37 brb 14:22:11 mchua: need < 14:23:25 easier way to share your patch file: cat patchFile.patch | fpaste 14:23:28 sorry everyone, but I have to go 14:23:29 then send the fpaste to your partner 14:23:50 Talk to you all Thrusday if I don't catch you online before I leave Tomorrow morning 14:23:56 and for the partner, when looking at the fpaste link provided, click the "view raw" link and copy the text there 14:24:10 See you, Karlie! Thanks for swinging by. 14:24:52 NP mchua 14:24:57 bye 14:25:27 Hey, satellit__ ! 14:25:42 hi just observing 14:26:20 lmacken: I want you to demo this one - what happens when two patches confict, what's your workflow? 14:26:34 If you've applied your patch, go around and help others. 14:26:43 ls 14:26:54 wrong window :) 14:26:57 ugh yah 14:28:20 I'm out in the weeds again. I don' tknow how to find my patch, or if I've made the file/ 14:28:42 mchua: well, I use git-format-patch, and git-am/git-apply.... then I have to resolve the git merge conflict (which is different from when you use `patch` to apply conflicting patches) 14:28:58 mchua: as for when `patch` explodes... yeah, that gets messy. 14:30:27 mchua: how about if you all work out everyone's stuff to get to a common point 14:30:33 then we can use Fedora Talk on posse_projector 14:32:34 quaid: We're almost at that point now, so I'm trying to figure out fedora talk setup. 14:33:11 when using git, in the command patch -p2 < patchfile.file, what is the p2 option? 14:35:05 willhoft: if you go to the cmd line and do man patch, there is an explanation of the p flag 14:35:33 I have recieved a patch file url from my partner. Now what :-) 14:36:41 mrr 14:39:55 RITSteve: Apply the patch - the command is on the terminal on the projector. 14:42:47 .ext quaid 14:42:47 quaid: 5100038 14:44:05 quaid: ctyler will be calling you 14:44:13 he's setting things up in the front now 14:44:19 @mchua: Not anymore :-) 14:44:36 RITSteve: hush :) 14:44:40 RITSteve: I'll write it on the board 14:45:03 mic off 14:45:04 one sec 14:45:33 quaid: good 14:45:53 < Karsten Wade 14:46:00 ^Karsten Wade 14:46:53 #info Karsten's on the phone! 14:47:19 quaid: I can barely understand the audio, so I'll shoot messages here and trust you on improvising and knowing when to ignore me and whatnot. ;) 14:47:42 mchua: quaid is doing introduction -- himself, docs project, publican 14:48:04 quaid: we've just explained - and gone through - the "get source, change source, build locally to test, make a patchfile, send the patch back upstream - here's how you dialogue with people to get them to accept it" - cycle 14:48:10 apparently we're a photoshoot right now D: 14:48:32 quaid: so hearing about that in the context of Fedora Docs, etc. would be awesome - how does this work when you have a project with millions of users, tens of thousands of contributors, dozens of simultaneous writers? 14:48:34 quaid: lost audio 14:48:35 quaid: I think we lost you :( 14:48:39 oop 14:48:43 one sec 14:48:48 redialing 14:48:49 yep 14:48:50 hmm 14:48:54 hmm! 14:49:10 we're on wifi on this end too, ouch 14:49:21 bit of audio breakup 14:49:48 btw, FedoraTalk is the Fedora community's VOIP phone system 14:50:01 let's do Q&A 14:50:23 mchua: might put something more interesting on projector during photo shoot :-) 14:51:28 Steve Jacobs question -- where does Publican fit into the food chain? 14:51:40 * quaid listening 14:51:51 I'm writing doc, which I save as an ASCII file, then what? 14:53:37 I can't hear the room's questions as well, lots of small echoy noises 14:54:21 * mchua would like to pull back a bit and use this as an example of a FOSS contribution workflow - not getting *too* stuck on the details of Publican 14:54:25 Plain text input 14:54:39 quaid: if you can point out examples of other "get source, modify/build, push changes" cycles, that'd be great too 14:54:43 How do you take that and make it into something that you can feed into Publican? 14:54:49 quaid: I'm trying to get the general "this works for code!" etc. idea across as well. 14:55:26 slight audio breakup 14:55:48 quaid: I think question is more basic -- how do we get docbook xml to start with? Easily? 14:56:44 did I just drop? 14:56:51 question: "Do you have to hand-write DocbookXML Markup?" 14:56:52 i think so 14:56:54 quaid: ...yes 14:57:01 I'll let you write back 14:57:09 call 14:57:32 calling (?) 14:57:32 quaid: the next thing we're going to talk about (briefly) is edit conflicts and merges (using the wiki) 14:57:34 don't worry folks, I'll figure out what you need :) 14:57:49 calling again 14:58:07 quaid: and then we'll have people play with Sugar to get used to it for the remainder of the hour 14:58:08 The question is, if we don't care about or want to hand-roll docbook xml, can we use publican? 14:58:14 getting Voicemail when calling you 14:58:14 no 14:58:20 huh 14:58:24 one sec let me reregister 14:58:34 quaid: answer I assume I'm looking for at this point is use a word processor or editor that saves as xml and then move from there 14:58:36 ringing 14:58:39 I'm here 14:58:57 * mchua may have people check out Sugar Activity code as well, before lunch 14:59:00 (we'll see) 14:59:17 How about ODT->docbook XML conversion? (Did this for my O'Reilly books) 14:59:30 Ooo write? How to edit xml 14:59:49 * lmacken uses reStructuredText for all of his documentation, which is an easy-to-read, what-you-see-is-what-you-get plaintext markup syntax and parser system. 15:00:05 satellit__: Using word processors to edit XML usually ends up putting a lot of syntax you don't want in that XML - I strongly prefer editing XML in plaintext. 15:00:19 thanks 15:00:27 gEdit, or some other text editor - or a wysiwyg editor built for editing xml. 15:00:30 mchua: I'd even lean towards an actual "XML editor" 15:00:41 even if it's just using a plugin within eclipse or something like that 15:00:44 ganderson: I'd love to hear recommendations - I usually just do it straight-up 15:00:56 * mchua has considered using eclipse, but it's huge and I never quite did get started. 15:01:12 Oxygen (even though it's payware and a little pricey :( ) is cross platform and pretty awesome for XML editing/generation 15:01:18 mchua: me too wrt eclipse 15:01:30 * pfroehlich waves 15:01:30 never needed to do anything that big that really needed a full-fledged IDE, mostly... I'm sure if I went back to development as my $dayjob, that might change 15:01:35 hullo pfroehlich! 15:01:37 * pfroehlich hopes all is going well at RIT :-D 15:02:21 on XML: http://xml-copy-editor.sourceforge.net/ and http://www.screem.org/ are 2 other free tools that run on linux (I haven't used them, personally) 15:02:22 pfroehlich: It's a very different dynamic with a larger group - I'm looking forward to the point where we're all actually working on projects 15:02:24 thanks quaid 15:02:29 sure thing 15:02:32 ok, so bottom line is to use this system you need to hand code or tweak xml to push it to publican which will then spit it out in different rendered formats, html page, pdf, etc? 15:03:47 Question from mchua: what is the general workflow? 15:04:09 quaid: and how does this workflow apply to other areas of open source - not just docs, but code? not just Fedora, but other FOSS projects? 15:04:22 ("why don't we just email lots of files back and forth?") 15:04:53 basically, docs hat off, commarch hat on :) 15:08:22 "hat off?" "commarch?" 15:08:47