19:57:46 <mchua> #startmeeting
19:57:46 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Apr 21 19:57:46 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:57:48 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:57:49 <mchua> #chair sdziallas
19:57:50 <zodbot> Current chairs: mchua sdziallas
19:57:55 <mchua> #meetingname POSSE Worcester curriculum brainstorming
19:57:55 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'posse_worcester_curriculum_brainstorming'
19:57:59 <mchua> sdziallas: Go for it.
19:58:12 <sdziallas> mchua: so. this is going to be the SL POSSE, right?
19:58:36 <mchua> Yep, Sugar Labs development using Fedora as a development platform.
19:58:42 <sdziallas> I'm going to argue that it might make sense to have... perfect. :)
19:59:00 <sdziallas> Alright, so here are the bullet points.
19:59:05 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_2009#Topic_Schedule
19:59:19 <sdziallas> * POSSE Remix / Sugar on a Stick (?)
19:59:35 <sdziallas> * Fedora / SL accounts (sunjammer? trac?)
19:59:47 <sdziallas> * JHBuild (!)
19:59:54 <mchua> is last year's curriculum; the broad objective is to get professors to the point where they know the tools/culture needed to *contribute* to that particular open source community, with the intent that they will get their students into doing the same (even if they themselves don't have the time to continue on a daily basis, which is fine.)
20:00:01 * mchua nods
20:00:03 <sdziallas> * packaging sprint: activities?
20:00:04 <mchua> ow, jhbuild. yes.
20:00:14 <mchua> er. I mean, ouch. but yes, should address that. er.
20:00:17 * mchua shuts up for a while
20:00:30 * sdziallas grins. ;)
20:00:41 <sdziallas> I originally planned to walk through the different days.
20:01:02 <sdziallas> It looks like Thursday is the day that needs the most heavy overhaul to me.
20:01:18 <mchua> I think that's right.
20:01:24 <mchua> Monday can stay as it is, almost untouched.
20:01:32 * sdziallas nods.
20:01:57 <mchua> I'm not sure if we want to try teaching everyone how to package - so if we decide to not do that, but instead offer it as an outside-of-class/after-class option, that gives us more time to Do Stuff.
20:02:13 <sdziallas> Yup, that makes sense.
20:02:36 <sdziallas> Also, are we going to get VMs?
20:02:37 <mchua> (I mean, packaging == yay! and useful, and all that, but a few hours is usually... not sufficient to go from "I have never heard of this before" to "yayyy.")
20:03:25 <mchua> so... how do you want to go through the topics? one by one, day by day?
20:03:36 <sdziallas> I think day by day sounds fine.
20:03:45 <mchua> sdziallas: Yeah, people should be bringing their own computers but we'll have some sandbox for them to play with
20:03:58 <mchua> sdziallas: with any image we specify (or make - either f13, or a remix of some sort)
20:04:09 <sdziallas> mchua: I think I can make sure to get us an image.
20:04:16 <sdziallas> Which brings me to a question related to that.
20:04:38 <mchua> #action mchua check with gregdek on whether we're providing VMs from cloud-magic-fu or otherwise, or whether we'll have to find a way to spin up stuff locally
20:04:48 <mchua> I am pretty sure it is the former but I am not 100% confident.
20:04:56 <mchua> sdziallas: POSSE Remix v.2.0?
20:05:10 <sdziallas> Like: How much should we do in advance there? (as in: "how many dependencies and stuff or concrete jhbuild inclusion")
20:05:17 <sdziallas> mchua: I'M GAME! :)
20:05:31 <sdziallas> mchua: I guess what I'm saying is:
20:05:59 <sdziallas> I think we should have a POSSE Remix, but I also think it makes sense to have the learning experience of setting up jhbuild or installing some (probably not all) dependencies.
20:06:54 <sdziallas> But that's also something we can discuss in May.
20:08:03 <mchua> True.
20:08:08 <mchua> Well, I think it depends on what we want to have the profs due.
20:08:10 <mchua> er, do.
20:08:13 * mchua mixing up homophones
20:08:18 * sdziallas grins. :)
20:08:27 <mchua> so let's figure out the curriculum, and then we can figure out what remix we need to support it.
20:08:49 <sdziallas> Yup, that sounds good.
20:09:02 <mchua> What do we want them to be able to do by the end of POSSE? What sort of contributors do we want them to be able to guide their students to become?
20:09:20 <sdziallas> I think... activities might be interesting.
20:09:25 <mchua> Activity developers, sugar-core hackers, designers, documenters, SoaS deployers, testers, upstream liasons, packagers, all of the above?
20:09:33 <mchua> I'm sure Walter will be keen on that. :)
20:09:58 <sdziallas> Also,... it might be interesting to have Luke drop by or so.
20:10:02 <mchua> Worth noting that we'll have CS profs here, as opposed to other kinds (design, etc)
20:10:13 <mchua> Oh, especially if Luke is in Cambridge this summer.
20:10:14 <mchua> Yes.
20:10:24 * sdziallas nods. (heh, SoaS deployers... I'm biased)
20:10:27 <mchua> Thursday night's dinner is traditionally the "invite all local community members! come hang out!!!" time
20:10:37 <sdziallas> ah, cool! :)
20:10:42 <mchua> and we'll get cjb and lfaraone and bemasc and everyone else in town.
20:10:54 <sdziallas> nice!
20:10:58 <mchua> they're also welcome to drop by during the day and so forth, but Worcester being an hour west makes that a bit less likely.
20:11:07 <mchua> (and buy them dinner - it's built into the budget.)
20:12:31 * sdziallas nods.
20:16:44 <mchua> sdziallas: how about this as a target - Activity modification and redeployment, Soas creation/customization/testing (of Activities)?
20:17:04 <mchua> Activity modification (not so much development-from-scratch, not in that short a timescale) as a gateway to using the tools and such
20:17:09 <sdziallas> mchua: that sounds really good to me.
20:17:13 <mchua> so that they can, if they want, apply the same to sugar-core later on
20:17:17 <sdziallas> mchua: would be another argument for the Luke example.
20:17:21 <mchua> and SoaS as the means of distribution.
20:17:26 <sdziallas> (talking lmacken here)
20:17:36 <mchua> ohhh
20:17:36 <mchua> I thought lfaraone. anyway, I'd love to ahve both.
20:17:39 <mchua> er, hve both
20:17:41 <mchua> have both.
20:17:41 <mchua> gah!
20:17:42 * sdziallas nods. that sounds cool!
20:17:45 <sdziallas> :)
20:17:46 <mchua> typing. can haz skillz.
20:17:53 <sdziallas> yez you can haz!
20:18:23 <sdziallas> (sorry, should have said Luke M. - was thinking about Open Video Chat here)
20:19:17 <sdziallas> mchua: mhm, SoaS... should we get them usb sticks?
20:20:27 <mchua> #idea get attendees usb sticks pre-flashed with SoaS
20:20:32 <mchua> Yeah, we have budget for that.
20:20:50 <sdziallas> Ah, cool!
20:21:46 <sdziallas> Well, I guess we can figure this out in May, too.
20:21:54 <sdziallas> I'm just... lingering around topics, I guess.
20:26:26 * mchua nods.
20:26:30 <mchua> Let's start cranking through the days.
20:26:35 <mchua> #topic Monday
20:27:11 <sdziallas> I guess we might be fine with a s/Mozilla/Sugar there.
20:28:33 <mchua> #info Goal: Learn how to use the communication tools the community uses.
20:28:57 <mchua> We don't yet have to plunge them into direct contact with the community - that definitely happens on Tuesday - but we want to get everyone fluent on IRC, wikis, etc.
20:29:11 <mchua> What accounts do they ahve to make?
20:29:15 <mchua> er, have to make?
20:29:22 <sdziallas> SL Trac, certainly.
20:29:35 <sdziallas> (since we've the patch handling there, as well as the issues)
20:29:49 <sdziallas> I don't think they necessarily need a Sunjammer account.
20:30:05 <sdziallas> And then again something on FAS and RHBZ.
20:31:01 <mchua> #info accounts to create: SL trac, gitorious, FAS, RHBZ, aslo, freenode nick registration, SL wiki
20:31:08 * mchua can't think of any more yet
20:31:16 <sdziallas> ah yes, that sounds good.
20:31:17 <sdziallas> blogs.
20:31:30 <sdziallas> (which is different, but was on the list iirc, too)
20:33:51 <mchua> #info each attendee should be set up with a blog
20:34:13 <mchua> #action mchua make account-creation instructions and send them out beforehand so professors can arrive with accounts already made (and then just learn to use them)
20:34:18 <sdziallas> (is it time to hint towards posterous here?)
20:34:28 * sdziallas can help with that, too.
20:36:16 <mchua> Ok.
20:36:37 <mchua> I think Monday's set, we just need to make sure folks are set up with account-creation homework.
20:36:57 <sdziallas> Yup.
20:37:38 <sdziallas> Tuesday?
20:38:31 <mchua> Onwards!
20:38:34 <mchua> #topic Tuesday
20:39:06 <sdziallas> I think... we can basically take out the references to Mozilla Build and Windows there and put other stuff in; same goes for RPM packaging.
20:39:30 <sdziallas> (I guess it might make sense to focus more on the python side of things)
20:40:33 <mchua> #info Goal: Learn how to find what code is available, get that code, and begin modifying it
20:40:59 <mchua> #info tools: git, some sort of editor/IDE
20:41:15 <sdziallas> Gedit? ;)
20:41:15 <mchua> #info social: asking questions and finding people on IRC, mailing lists, wikis - scoping a project
20:41:22 <mchua> sdziallas: or kate. ;)
20:41:33 <sdziallas> mchua: I know walter's call on that already.
20:41:34 <mchua> ...or Eclipse, which has a pretty nice Python mode.
20:41:48 * mchua would also be happy with vim :P
20:41:59 <sdziallas> mchua: so would I, but I hear he'd go for emacs ;)
20:42:47 <mchua> Yeah, I know... turtleart is like the emacs for Sugar.
20:42:48 <mchua> Anyhoo.
20:42:55 <mchua> (walter said so himself!)
20:43:06 * sdziallas grins.
20:43:10 <mchua> So!
20:43:26 <mchua> With those goals in mind... what do we need to teach?
20:43:32 * mchua looks at http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_2009#Topic_Schedule
20:43:42 <mchua> ..."not packaging"
20:43:47 <mchua> that frees up a ton of time
20:43:56 <mchua> we may need to do a little intro python, though everyone should already have coding experience.
20:44:02 <mchua> I don't want to have them do an Activity from scratch
20:44:05 <sdziallas> That sounds fair.
20:44:15 * mchua thinking out loud
20:44:35 <sdziallas> Makes sense to me.
20:44:44 <mchua> oh. hm, maybe a goal for the week could be "get an Activity that isn't up to $standards to be included in SoaS, included in SoaS"
20:44:58 <sdziallas> Yeah, that even sounds like a good incentive to me!
20:45:00 <mchua> and then on the last day we rebuild the image and reflash their sticks and go "congratulations, it'll be in the next release"
20:45:11 * sdziallas nods. I like that a lot.
20:45:24 <mchua> i mean, would still need to be packaged and such to go into the *actual* nightly build, but...
20:45:34 <sdziallas> Oh well. *wave* ;)
20:46:08 <mchua> ...that's also an incentive for me to learn how to package in the evenings.
20:46:19 <sdziallas> We can do that, certainly.
20:46:21 <mchua> Packaging could be one of those extra bonus session things.
20:46:45 <sdziallas> +1.
20:46:52 <mchua> #idea Goal for the week: get an Activity that isn't included in SoaS, up to standards and included in SoaS.
20:47:23 <mchua> #idea RPM packaging will be the extra-evening-bonus-sessions, in the evenings in the hotel lobby
20:47:47 <mchua> #action mchua finalize SoaS inclusion criteria, get general community consensus on them for v.4.0
20:48:15 <mchua> #action sdziallas gear up for "how to package Activities" sessions (make resources, etc.)
20:48:24 <mchua> (I know we've tried this before, but... y'know, it gets better every time, right?)
20:48:29 <sdziallas> ayup :)
20:48:41 <sdziallas> we did the classroom session and stuff...
20:49:25 <mchua> sdziallas: so tuesday is where the jhbuild question comes up.
20:49:29 <mchua> do we need jhbuild?
20:49:37 <mchua> I am... skeptical.
20:49:42 <sdziallas> mchua: mhm. yes and no at the same time.
20:49:55 <mchua> Also, nervous. I'm not sure if it actually helps our learning objectives to have them futz with that.
20:50:28 <sdziallas> Well... it encourages 'em to fiddle with core Sugar. I'm equally sceptical about it when it comes to activities.
20:50:31 <mchua> They're not going to be doing sugar-core development, and the point is that they'll be comfy enough communicating and asking questions afterwards that they could talk with people about setting up jhbuild and doing sugar-core dev *after* POSSE week.
20:50:34 <sdziallas> So I guess we can leave it out.
20:50:36 <mchua> Right.
20:50:37 <sdziallas> Jinx! :)
20:50:51 <mchua> #agreed no jhbuild! but tell them what it is and how to learn more if they're interested after POSSE week.
20:51:18 * sdziallas nods.
20:51:50 <mchua> Ok, so what things do they need to learn on Tuesday then?
20:52:02 <mchua> They'll need to pick an Activity, learn about the inclusion criteria...
20:52:24 <mchua> ...hm. sdziallas, who gets to +1 the activity for inclusion in SoaS? Is that just you? You, me, and Peter? It'd be good to be able to do that "review process" live
20:52:47 <sdziallas> mchua: I think it can be all three of us. :)
20:52:47 * mchua remembers how ianweller was able to do package reviews in person at last year's POSSE, this is a similar but hopefully way more lightweight process
20:52:55 <mchua> okay, so we can actually walk through one of those.
20:52:58 <sdziallas> mchua: I'll do that for evening packaging sessions.
20:53:17 <sdziallas> mchua: and we can just grab Peter in Jabber and discuss stuff.
20:53:42 <mchua> #idea SoaS Activity reviews can be done by Sebastian, Peter, and Mel for v.4.0 (for inclusion in SoaS, separate from packaging in Fedora - though that's one of the criteria)
20:54:07 <mchua> Sounds good.
20:54:24 <sdziallas> deal!
20:54:36 <mchua> #info Activity: pick an Activity
20:54:43 <mchua> #info Activity: learn about inclusion criteria
20:54:58 <mchua> #info Activity: use stick to download and install Activity from aslo to test it
20:55:15 <mchua> oh, which means we need to have an "intro to using SoaS" on Monday
20:55:20 <sdziallas> (in own development environment)
20:55:23 <sdziallas> ayup!
20:55:30 <mchua> #info make sure we have "intro to SoaS" time on Monday (for basic Sugar usage)
20:55:44 <sdziallas> I think that should be somewhere near remotely possible.
20:55:49 <mchua> #action mchua make sure all attendees have a computer that can boot a stick (bring extra netbooks if possible)
20:57:28 <mchua> #info Activity: intro to git/gitorious (check out Activity code)
20:57:38 <mchua> #info Activity: python 101
20:58:25 <mchua> #info Activity: modifying an Activity (perhaps changing a toolbar icon temporarily) - tools to learn: some IDE, code search tools/strategies like ack/grep
20:58:43 <mchua> #info Activity: finding active bugs for an Activity - tools to learn: trac
20:58:57 <sdziallas> do we put the review process in here?
20:59:34 <sdziallas> like: r? / r+ / r- in SL trac for reviewing changes to other components?
20:59:47 <sdziallas> or do we teach them how to fork something in gitorious and make a merge request later?
20:59:52 <mchua> sdziallas: I think that will come later in the week - they'll learn the criteria it has to meet and we can go through why the Activity they picked is *not* eligible for inclusion yet, so they have a to-do list
20:59:57 <mchua> sdziallas: I think fork.
21:00:13 <sdziallas> mchua: (sorry; as I said... running around topics, I guess)
21:00:18 <mchua> let's make it work locally first.
21:00:22 <mchua> sdziallas: nah, it's good :)
21:00:22 <sdziallas> mchua: makes sense.
21:02:09 <mchua> so instead of having them laern to make an RPM, we should make sure they understand what that is, since it's a soas inclusion requirement.
21:02:13 <mchua> and that evening session can haz.
21:02:20 <mchua> er, session(s) most likely.
21:02:24 <mchua> tuesday and wednesday nights.
21:02:38 <mchua> monday night is probably a "wait what is this IRC thing again?" night and a "wait there are people online!!!" night.
21:02:43 <sdziallas> okay, sounds good.
21:03:40 <mchua> #info make sure attendees know what RPM packaging is and how they could learn it (evening sessions, etc) but it will *not* be part of the day's curriculum
21:03:59 <mchua> That seems like a pretty full day to me already.
21:04:08 <mchua> At the end of the day they should be bugfixing/modifying their Activity.
21:04:28 <mchua> and filling in all the requirements - some of it's documentation/pedagogical objective clarification too.
21:04:34 <sdziallas> Yeah, right. Let's try to keepit... sane. ;)
21:05:01 <mchua> End of Tuesday?
21:05:19 <sdziallas> Yup.
21:05:48 <mchua> #info packaging party (optional) Tuesday night
21:05:51 <mchua> #topic Wednesday
21:06:06 <mchua> ok, this is where we do "how to write a good bug report"
21:06:07 <mchua> and merging
21:06:08 <mchua> and patches
21:06:30 <mchua> this is the "yesterday you learned how to do local changes, now we push them upstream, and here are the technical and social processes for that"
21:06:33 <mchua> day
21:06:38 <sdziallas> I hear there's an awesome tutorial out there.
21:06:41 <sdziallas> (re: bug reports)
21:08:18 <mchua> #info Activity: Answer questions from the previous day, ask people who in the community they've been engaging with
21:08:34 <mchua> #info Activity: working with bug reports - how to read them, how to write them, how to get your bug fixed
21:08:47 <mchua> #info Activity: creating and submitting patches
21:09:17 <mchua> #info Activity: merge requests - basically, "getting your code upstream"
21:09:29 <sdziallas> #link Bug Reports: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/BugSquad/Bug_Report
21:09:30 <mchua> #info Activity: "talking about the work you're doing" - everyone should be blogging, posting to lists, etc
21:09:36 <mchua> yay!
21:12:06 <mchua> sdziallas: we're missing a "navigate through a giant codebase in a group" activity... ideas?
21:12:27 <sdziallas> mchua: mhm?
21:12:38 <sdziallas> ah!
21:13:05 * sdziallas mutters... "activity" != activity. I'd better get stuff quicker.
21:13:17 <sdziallas> Well, there's always sugar-core itself.
21:13:34 <sdziallas> But, mhm.
21:13:52 <mchua> Oh. If we want to do sugar-core, that's the time we'll have to do it.
21:14:06 <mchua> sdziallas: yikes, I'm being called out for my haircut, I'll be out for up to 50m
21:14:10 <mchua> hopefully faster
21:14:14 <mchua> pause and resume later?
21:14:15 <sdziallas> There's probably stuff that fits better, but...
21:14:24 <mchua> I'll leave this open so you can keep brainstorming, you have chair privs
21:14:28 <sdziallas> mchua: ah, okay! ;)
21:54:39 * mchua re-reads where we were
21:57:36 <mchua> Aaand let's just restart tomorrow.
21:57:48 <mchua> #info to be continued tomorrow - we left off partway through Wednesday's curriculum
21:57:51 <mchua> #endmeeting