<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:00:26
!startmeeting riscv-sig
<@rwmj:matrix.org>
16:00:27
testing 1 2 3
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
16:00:28
Meeting started at 2025-02-04 16:00:26 UTC
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
16:00:28
The Meeting name is 'riscv-sig'
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:00:34
!topic init process / agenda gathering
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:00:34
!meetingname riscv-sig
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
16:00:35
The Meeting Name is now riscv-sig
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:00:41
morning all. :)
<@rwmj:matrix.org>
16:00:49
afternoon :-)
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:01:06
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:01:09
None (abologna)
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:01:22
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:01:23
Neil Hanlon (neil) - he / him / his
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:01:44
Hola from 37,000ft above canada
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:02:06
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:02:08
David Abdurachmanov (davidlt)
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:02:44
isn't technology grand...
<@rwmj:matrix.org>
16:02:59
the news is we have managed to (internally) hire someone to work on Fedora RISC-V full time; I don't know if he's in the channel however so I will wait until he's around to introduce him
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:03:31
spoiler on said person's gender!
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:03:57
Excellent!
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:03:58
Richard Jones: is this a position at Brno office?
<@rwmj:matrix.org>
16:04:07
remote I believe
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:04:14
I have some news on secondary koji at some point here.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:04:33
do we have an agenda, or are we just going for unstructured chatter?
<@rwmj:matrix.org>
16:04:35
(Belgium)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:05:03
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:05:04
Justin W. Wheeler (jflory7) - he / him / his
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:05:27
JWW (@jflory7): the more the merrier :)
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:05:39
I had some ideas regarding topics in https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/11726#comment-953126
<@rwmj:matrix.org>
16:05:53
https://riscv-koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/ !
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:06:18
We also have one of P550 32GB boards connected to (existing) Koji.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:06:19
Richard Jones: yeah that happened while you were away. great isn't it :)
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:06:27
There's no agenda... we can try and forulate one, or jump around.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:06:53
should we go into the secondary hub topic first?
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:06:56
so I have a quick topic that we can maybe discuss before going into the more open-ended talk about koji
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:07:03
if that's okay with everyone
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:07:20
Ok, go ahead.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:07:36
please do
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:08:11
cool. as you might or might not know, we have published "blessed" Fedora 41 images a few days back
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:08:27
(I wanted to write "official" but even with the surrounding quotes that seemed too much ;)
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:08:49
I'd just remove that word at all. ;)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:08:50
This is amazing!!
<@jmontleon:fedora.im>
16:08:54
And I can vouch that if you follow the instructions the p550 image works well.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:09:10
subsequently, I've made sure to update the wiki to point to them, refresh the installation instructions and so on... I'm not 100% happy with the result and it could still use some work, but it's acceptable IMO
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:09:31
can we do a bit of marketing around them?
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:09:34
abologna: would it be worth doing forum or/and Fedora Magazine post about it?
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:09:52
right, right. absolutely. but that's not what I wanted to talk about this very moment
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:10:08
before we do that, I think we want to have everything neat and tidy
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:10:21
so I would like to see all outdated contents gone from https://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/risc-v/
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:10:28
I think some docs for packagers about how to get started with RISC-V builders would go a long way. Then we can focus the outreach for the Packager community and hit channels like Mastodon and the Devel list.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:10:49
there's stuff there that's dating back almost a decade... I don't think anything needs to be salvaged beyond the latest F41 images
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:11:14
I'd like to hear arguments of the contrary, if any
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:11:35
IMO people landing there should not be presented with a barrage of obsolete stuff
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:11:42
just what's relevant today
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:11:46
Well, a decade... Somehow I start feeling old. I am not 100% a fan of deleting everything without some kind of offline backup, but in general I agree.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:12:07
JWW (@jflory7): we are not ready for that yet. ;) (see next topic)
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:12:22
I'm amendable to moving everything to a directory called "obsolete", "archive" or something like that
<@jmontleon:fedora.im>
16:12:23
Any point in archiving it?
<@rwmj:matrix.org>
16:12:40
yeah move it to archive/ or something like that
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:12:46
as long as it's obvious to anyone ending up there that they should only go look there if they're interested in the history of the effort
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:12:52
the current situation is way too confusing
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:13:07
I mean, we have both "disk-images" and "disk_images" for crying out loud :)
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:13:07
There might be binaries that I cooked, and I no longer cook for newer Fedora. Something for older boards.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:13:22
what kind of binaries?
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:13:25
(I need to check, save a few things [just in case])
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:13:40
Like various options for Unmatched depending how you boot.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:14:09
I think someone will need to figure out how to boot Unmatched with the F41 image
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:14:11
abologna: are those the remix stuff? or predate that?
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:14:31
nirik: no relation to the remix stuff
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:14:32
Nothing too important, I think. Thus I just need a good look, download [just in case] and we could nuke it.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:14:53
would you be opposed to just moving them off to the side for now, so that you can take your time looking into it?
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:14:58
I do know that some universities might be using existing disk images, etc. for their lectures.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:14:59
that suits me fine personally
<@rwmj:matrix.org>
16:15:02
abologna: easiest is to just move it all to archive/ then if we realise we need something it's still there, and everyone else will ignore it
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:15:24
Sure, moving to "obsolete" (or whatever) is fine with me.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:15:48
cool, then I'll talk later to you and Rich about doing that
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:16:35
if we want to discuss some sort of marketing push on the tail of this topic...
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:17:09
my internet connection seems to be having problems. ;( Anyhow, +1 to moving to a archive dir.
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:17:39
Id be willing to take a stab at a fedora magazine article, if we want
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:18:04
I think a forum post or/and Fedora Magazine might be nice to have. Especially since folks sometimes don't know how/where to find information about current activities (we are not spending a lot of time on PR these days).
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:18:35
yeah Fedora Magazine sounds nice
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:18:53
we've just reached a good milestone that is worth advertising
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:18:54
agreed.
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:19:42
Cool. Ill figure that out then with help from @JWW (@jflory7) cause ive never written for the magazine yet ;)
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:20:09
I'd be happy to review/provide feedback/answer questions
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:21:09
thanks for doing that Neil Hanlon!
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:21:10
ok, shall we move to the next topic?
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:21:48
Happy to 👍🏻
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:21:51
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-magazine/workflow/
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:22:01
I think, we can move to the next one. Do you have a particular one in mind?
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:22:13
!topic secondary koji
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:22:36
nirik: I can see your messages fine
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:22:43
well, except for the ones that I can't of course :)
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:22:54
So, the secondary hub is finally installed... auth command line works (but web auth doesn't for some reason I haven't been able to figure out).
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:23:07
It's currently a blank slate.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:23:28
I noted a bunch of next steps in https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/11726#comment-953126
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:23:53
I need to make some x86 builders (for createrepos, etc)
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:24:20
but then I guess we need to figure out how we want to populate it
<@rwmj:matrix.org>
16:24:28
davidlt: is this something you can help with? re RISC-V builders, I have 3 attached to david's koji, but can reattach them to this one when we're ready
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:24:44
We will, but not at this time.
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:25:04
We dismantle everything once we start migration. Incl. starting to update all the hardware to F41 images.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:25:14
I can probibly play with the builder I have getting it to auth right, etc... then we can sort out migration of builders.
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:25:29
We aren't ready to start doing that.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:25:39
right, there's other steps.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:25:53
that makes figuring out how to boot existing boards using the new images a necessary step
<@x3mboy:fedora.im>
16:26:00
.hello2
<@x3mboy:fedora.im>
16:26:05
!hello x3mboy
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:26:06
Eduard Lucena (x3mboy) - he / him / his
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:26:08
should we perhaps make a doc/tracking thing? or just want me to do the rest of the stuff I need to do and rediscuss?
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:26:30
I'd be happy with a tracking doc, even if it's high level to start with
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:26:37
we can make things more detailed as we go
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:27:00
I suspect a lot of devil is going to be found in said details :)
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:27:10
Yeah, shouldn't be too problematic. I will cook required things for Unmatched. VF2 is good too. We have custom image for P550, but not for Spacemit stuff. We need might want to do something similar as to P550.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:27:44
yep. Does anyone have a preference for where such a thing would live? hackmd? something else?
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:27:47
if Jason Montleon has kernels I can assist with kiwi recipes. I don't have the hardware to test things myself
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:27:56
I am fine with anything.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:28:13
also, I'd love to get to a point where I am not a bottleneck. ;) I have a big datacenter move I need to work on.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:28:24
ok, I can make a hackmd... thats easy
<@jmontleon:fedora.im>
16:29:08
we will want to figure out uboot for spacemit
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:29:09
Also the same information (boards + F41 steps) should be available in wiki. QEMU, VF2 and P550 probably already is.
<@jmontleon:fedora.im>
16:29:14
other than that kernel is OK
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:29:32
Ah yes, U-Boot stuff. We can probably discuss this on #riscv:fedoraproject.org later on.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:29:44
yes, we have Good Enough™ documentation for the hardware that I can get my hands on
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:30:24
we should expand it to cover more, but that requires people who have access to the machines to jump in and test/contribute
<@villadalmine:fedora.im>
16:30:40
Where I can find a list of board tested or supported
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:31:14
Basically QEMU, Unmatched, VF2. Not really supported (but available) are P550 and Spacemit based boards (Jupiter, BPI-F3).
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:31:14
a very good question that I'm afraid we don't have a very good answer for ;)
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:31:33
("just ask" is not a good answer)
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:31:57
we could perhaps add at least a stub page for each board?
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:32:07
We probably should.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:33:05
the pattern has already been established, should be easy enough to set up stub pages. I can take care of that
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:33:12
then someone will need to fill it in with actual information
<@jmontleon:fedora.im>
16:33:20
i think there is enough in upstream (6.13 / 6.14) for the lichee pi 4a to boot without patches now. The problem again remains u-boot. not that that's an exciting board.
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:33:29
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:33:29
I quickly looked at it; it looks like "disk-images" has Rawhide images, and the one with underscore has Sifve Unmatched, and a lone "fedora-40" directory :D
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:33:29
Reading back; yeah, this is confusing, to say the least.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:33:49
kashyapc: ignore the mess, we already agreed to clean it up :)
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:34:10
Ah, okay; I'm still wading through the scrollback.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:36:10
anyone else wanted to raise a topic?
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:36:24
Nothing from me
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:36:43
I guess for the koji/builder part we're going to arrange things via hackmd/whatever so no need to discuss further here
<@rwmj:matrix.org>
16:36:44
nope
<@jmontleon:fedora.im>
16:37:27
I am trying to stay ahead of kernel surprises. spacemit boots with 6.14-rc1. vf2/lpi4a with 6.13 and I will check them on 6.14-rc1 when my build is done.
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:37:34
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:37:34
(Aside: I know we talked about here before, but I still wonder if we should make a 'fedora-risc-v' list. It can be useful to able to "refer" to some discussion with a URL. Referring to Matrix chat URLs is a bit clunky. This can wait, but I just wanted to note it again.)
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:37:34
Should "someone" send a note to fedora-devel with a [risc-v] tag to it?
<@jmontleon:fedora.im>
16:37:39
I am trying to stay ahead of kernel surprises. spacemit boots with 6.14-rc1. vf2/lpi4a with 6.13.1 and I will check them on 6.14-rc1 when my build is done.
<@jmontleon:fedora.im>
16:38:49
And I will figure out Megrez 6.6.y if/when I get it.
<@rwmj:matrix.org>
16:39:09
do we need more mailing lists? IMHO risc-v is not sufficiently different from arm or x86 and those are discussed on the main list
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:39:28
We might want to cook custom builder images too. Not the generic ones.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:39:52
there are lists for arm, ppc, s390. having one for riscv would honestly make sense to me, but just having "tagged" threads on devel@ would also work
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:40:02
Hehe, I don't for sure. If using the classic devel-list is fine with the 'risc-v' tag, it's enough.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:40:04
especially if the traffic is low
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:40:36
That was the reason I brought it up. We also in the past had fedora-cloud 10 years ago, and we disbanded it, once things stabilized.
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:40:59
That was the reason I brought it up. We also had 'fedora-cloud' list 10 years ago, and we disbanded it, once things stabilized.
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:41:07
That was the reason I brought it up. We also had 'fedora-cloud' list 10 years ago, and we disbanded it once things stabilized.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:41:19
davidlt: what would the builder image have that the generic one doesn't? I think I'd be more leaning towards generic (possibly per-board) image + instructions on how to set up a koji builder on top of that
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:41:42
unless there's something that needs to be fundamentally different in terms of e.g. disk layout
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:41:57
so it can't simply be changed after provisioning
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:43:19
I don't want initial setup 😄
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:43:45
It's one thing to do in once or so, but it's another thing to do it <50 times.
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:44:32
What are these "builder images"?
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:44:35
note that once technically *is* <50 times ;)
<@jmontleon:fedora.im>
16:44:58
i am not a fan of initial-setup either
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:45:11
(I ask because, the term "builder" is a bit overloaded for me: `virt-builder`, Koji "builder", and omre.)
<@jmontleon:fedora.im>
16:45:16
probably koji, etc. installed so there's one less step; tmp.mount masked, etc.?
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:45:20
(I ask because, the term "builder" is a bit overloaded for me: `virt-builder`, Koji "builder", and more.)
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:45:27
tmp.mount is already masked
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:45:32
I want to flash & go approach, and then I detect the board based on the MAC address to handle the rest.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:46:22
On lists: we should perhaps try and use discussion tagged items? you can point to them on devel list too. ;)
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:46:32
Note, I will cook a custom image at least for myself, but it might be good to have one in general.
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:46:53
nirik:
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:46:53
> We need to determine for sure if we need the git overlay and where it will live and add it to allowed scms.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:47:14
the problem is that if we start offering images for more boards then we need to have two of each... I'm not opposed to it necessarily, it's just a bit of overhead
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:47:19
I was thinking about it, and could we handle it via Koji Hub policy? Maybe permission for build_from_scm?
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:47:58
yeah... last I heard it sounds like we are going to need overlay for at least some things. ;(
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:48:14
sure, it could be allowed there...
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:48:16
We will need overlay for some time thus let's use /fork/ in the official Fedora dist-git. Block it on the hub level based on the permission. Only a few users should be able to cook those.
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:48:22
You mean using here? - https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:48:22
I don't mind anything as long as it is "referrable" with a URL. As you can guess, my intention here is just so that not all useful info that future community members can benefit from is not lost.)
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:48:22
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:48:37
I don't mind anything as long as it is "referrable" with a URL. As you can guess, my intention here is just so that not all useful info that future community members can benefit from is not lost.)
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:48:37
You mean using the tags here? - https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:48:37
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:48:38
random idea: could we create a group on GitLab and keep the overlay there?
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:48:49
I think, this would make the whole setup a lot simpler for you to configure.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:48:51
since managing a group on pagure is apparently complicated
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:49:18
yep. https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/tags/c/project/7/risc-v-sig
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:49:23
We don't need a group this way. Everything is in the official dist-git as a fork, but we only allow a few folks to submit those to Koji Hub.
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:49:40
Koji permissions are a lot easier to handle.
<@kashyapc:fedora.im>
16:49:44
And Pagure will be retired anyway soon, in favor for "Forjego", if I type it right from memory)
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:49:50
but contributing to the fork itself would be the problem, no?
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:49:54
who owns the fork?
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:50:01
how do other people push to it?
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:50:04
Also Koji has a way to check "if user is in a group" but those are probably tied to Kerberos whatever.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:50:14
yeah, forks would work, but the only confusing thing is that they would be scattered and would need to keep track of which fork for which package...
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:50:27
if you had a gitlab group, you could just have the forks live there and use regular gitlab permissions for those
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:50:38
invite people over, use MRs, whatever
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:50:46
abologna: everyone can create a fork, but only a few actually submit it. You would need to look at the Koji to find SCM link to the fork.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:51:08
yeah I agree with nirik that it sounds like a mess
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:51:28
I think the 'if user is in a group' thing, the group is actually a permission...
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:51:33
Well, we need to decide if we want something custom, or just use Fedora infra as-is and figure out how to adapt 😄
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:51:51
Nah, permission as checked wit has_perm IIRC.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:51:52
what if you have some changes, I make some changes of my own, and I submit a new build?
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:52:05
I think there should be a "canonical" repo for each package in the overlay
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:52:16
Looking at Koji code group thing is something else and that information arrives the kerberos (unix groups, etc. maybe).
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:52:20
it becomes really hard to manage things otherwise
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:52:46
If we use forks you basically always have to check Koji for SCM URL.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:52:57
koji also uses 'group' to talk about package groups that are set for buildroots. :) confusion abounds.
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:53:07
well the topic is complex and deserves some in-depth discussion IMO. I suggest we shelve it for now
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:53:17
I will need to leave in a couple minutes
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:53:21
Yeah, I am talking about `user_in_group`
<@davidlt:matrix.org>
16:53:49
But `has_perm` might be easier as that is directly in Koji db.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:53:58
yeah, I have to run the next meeting in here in a few.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:54:14
yeah, we could do something with a riscv permission.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:54:33
!topic Open Floor
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:54:46
anyone have any other quick items before we move back to #riscv:fedoraproject.org ?
<@abologna:matrix.org>
16:55:25
not me :)
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:56:00
ok, thanks everyone. I'll try and whip up a hackmd and we can discuss overlay plans and other stuff in channel.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
16:56:04
!endmeeting