18:00:18 <mattdm> #startmeeting Fedora Server Reboot 18:00:18 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Dec 16 18:00:18 2020 UTC. 18:00:18 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 18:00:18 <zodbot> The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:18 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00:18 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_server_reboot' 18:00:20 <mattdm> #meetingname serversig 18:00:20 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'serversig' 18:00:22 <mattdm> #topic Introduction, Quick Hello, the Agenda 18:00:29 <mattdm> hi everyone! 18:00:42 <mattdm> we'll give a few minutes for folks to show up 18:00:51 <mattdm> you can do this to say hello: 18:00:53 <mattdm> .hello2 18:00:54 <zodbot> mattdm: mattdm 'Matthew Miller' <mattdm@mattdm.org> 18:01:09 <ab> .hello2 18:01:10 <zodbot> ab: Sorry, but you don't exist 18:01:15 <ab> great 18:01:19 <mattdm> ah FAS needs to know who you are :) 18:01:22 <bt0> .hello bt0dotninja 18:01:23 <zodbot> bt0: bt0dotninja 'Alberto Rodriguez Sanchez' <hotgalan@gmail.com> 18:01:24 <PBoyHB> .hello2 18:01:26 <michel_slm> .hello salimma 18:01:26 <zodbot> PBoyHB: Sorry, but you don't exist 18:01:28 <fcami> .hello2 fcami 18:01:29 <zodbot> michel_slm: salimma 'Michel Alexandre Salim' <michel@michel-slm.name> 18:01:30 <dcavalca> .hello2 18:01:32 <zodbot> fcami: fcami 'None' <fdc@fcami.net> 18:01:32 <ab> .hello abbra 18:01:35 <zodbot> dcavalca: dcavalca 'Davide Cavalca' <dcavalca@fb.com> 18:01:38 <zodbot> ab: abbra 'None' <abokovoy@redhat.com> 18:01:45 <fcami> not perfect, but that'll do 18:01:49 <mattdm> yeah :) 18:01:53 <mattdm> glad to see y'all here! 18:02:11 <jdubby> .hello2 18:02:12 <zodbot> jdubby: Sorry, but you don't exist 18:02:37 <sgallagh> .hello2 18:02:38 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com> 18:02:46 <ab> .hello2 abbra 18:02:46 <mattdm> oh hi sgallagh! good to see you! 18:02:46 <zodbot> ab: Sorry, but you don't exist 18:03:05 <ab> fun debugging the bot 18:03:07 <mattdm> #info to make the .hello2 thing work, make sure your irc nick is listed in https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/ 18:03:26 <mattdm> anyway, let's get started. 18:03:27 <ab> it is there but my account info is private 18:03:33 <mattdm> ah, yeah, that'll do it 18:03:52 <langdon> .hello2 18:03:53 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@redhat.com> 18:03:58 <fcami> same here 18:04:00 <mattdm> The basic purpose of this meeting is to re-kick-off the Fedora Server Working group 18:04:14 <mattdm> because when the idea of demoting it from being an edition came up, lot of people didn't want that 18:04:20 * langdon has dueling meetings so may be a bit laggy 18:04:30 <mattdm> langdon: aren't you always? :) 18:04:38 <langdon> pretty much 18:04:43 <mattdm> So let's get the things going we need to do so it can remain an edition 18:04:50 * michel_slm managed to get his coworkers to wake up for a 9:30 meeting so he can attend this 18:04:55 <mattdm> I put together a quick agenda which I am going to paste in a second 18:04:58 <sgallagh> The .hello2 variant only works if IRC Nick == FAS account. If it doesn't use `.hello <fasname>` 18:04:59 <mattdm> whoo coworkers! 18:05:12 <mattdm> #topic Agenda 18:05:15 <mattdm> 1. Introduction, Quick Hello, the Agenda 18:05:17 <mattdm> 2. Basic Framework for What's Needed 18:05:19 <mattdm> 3. Round of Introductions (Who you are, what you're interested in) 18:05:21 <mattdm> 4. Existing Fedora Server WG 18:05:23 <mattdm> 5. Volunteers to actually be on the Working Group 18:05:25 <mattdm> 6. Volunteers for practical action: reviewing and updating the PRD 18:05:26 * nirik is on pto and lurking. Happy to see new influx of folks and ideas here. 18:05:26 <jdubby> .hello jwhimpel 18:05:27 <zodbot> jdubby: jwhimpel 'John Himpel' <john@jlhimpel.net> 18:05:27 <mattdm> 7. Other things people are interested in signing up for now 18:05:29 <mattdm> 8. Next meeting: time and who will run it? 18:05:33 <mattdm> Anything seem to be missing from this? 18:05:43 <mattdm> welcome more people! 18:06:01 <fcami> the agenda LGTM 18:06:06 <michel_slm> +1 18:06:21 <mattdm> ok. there's a lot, so let's get started with it :) 18:06:28 <mattdm> #topic Basic Framework for What's Needed 18:06:48 <mattdm> Not everything in Fedora has to be an edition, of course. Lots of important things are not. 18:06:59 <mattdm> But editions are meant to be showcases for important broad categories of use cases. 18:07:03 <defolos> .helo2 18:07:09 <defolos> .hello2 18:07:10 <zodbot> defolos: defolos 'Dan Čermák' <dan.cermak@cgc-instruments.com> 18:07:20 <mattdm> And I think we're all here because we believe server use cases should be some we focus on 18:07:24 <defolos> sorry, will have to be afk most of the time 18:07:32 <mattdm> defolos ack, no problem 18:07:55 <mattdm> Editions get extra focus and resources from the project. 18:08:12 <mattdm> Like, when I go to CPE to talk about priorities, "Is this for a Fedora Edition?" is one of the questions. 18:08:12 <sgallagh> Focus, yes. 18:08:16 <defolos> just throwing in: I'd like to contribute with automated testing via openQA & on arm hardware that I got or will get 18:08:31 <mattdm> defolos excellent but save for agenda item 7 :) 18:08:50 <mattdm> sgallagh: right, I think your implication there is it's not like there are TONS of magical resources 18:08:54 <defolos> mattdm: I'll be having supper then probably 😉 18:09:24 <mattdm> But it can also include things like funding from the community budget. Again, "this is a fedora edition" gives extra priority 18:09:37 * sgallagh nods 18:09:38 <sghosh> is Server considered an edition today? 18:09:42 <sgallagh> sghosh: It is 18:09:48 <mattdm> sghosh: yes, but on life support 18:09:54 <sgallagh> What he said 18:09:54 <mattdm> the last meeting was two years ago 18:10:19 <michel_slm> that meeting is still on the calendar, but when I dropped in yesterday it's another meeting where people were speaking French :p 18:10:33 <sgallagh> Huh... I thought I deleted it long ago. 18:10:39 * sgallagh corrects that now 18:10:59 <mattdm> So, part of the other side of the coin is that we (the Fedora Council, as well as me personally as FPL) need to see regular activity from the edition WG which justifies the special status 18:11:26 <mattdm> We want the target audience and edition goals to keep up to date as the computing world changes 18:11:32 <sghosh> ok - so time commitmment on regular discussions and roadmaps 18:11:51 <mattdm> I know a lot of people think servers are boring, but we all know that that's not true :) 18:12:00 <sgallagh> Servers *should* be boring. 18:12:05 <mattdm> Yes but they never are :) 18:12:05 <fcami> things get interesting when they break, at least. 18:12:07 <sgallagh> It's when they aren't that we notice. 18:12:10 <mattdm> Right. :) 18:12:28 <sghosh> at a high level I would like to seeServer forcus on mostly headless services - single node deployments, and multi node deployments 18:12:29 <mattdm> But there are alos big changes in how servers are used and deployed. Fedora should be at the forefront. 18:12:53 <langdon> is what's needed something like "a better/stronger focus"? or is the agenda item strictly "mechanics"? 18:13:11 <mattdm> langdon: yeah, I don't want to define that now 18:13:16 <langdon> k 18:13:27 <jdubby> I think we need to focus on soho rather than enterprise at this point. 18:13:29 <mattdm> what I want is for this group to review and update the PRD on a regular (every couple of years) basis 18:13:44 <niki> is the agenda available some where ? 18:13:58 <mattdm> niki scroll up if you can 18:14:20 <Etceteral> jdubby: They do seem slightly orthogonal. A chance of focusing on where they intersect? 18:14:41 <mattdm> so, with the Fedora Ambassadors being revamped, another thing we need is updated marketing materials 18:14:42 <ab> what SoHo means for Server is not really too different of Enterprise in many areas 18:14:48 <niki> mattdm: My log is only goes ~7 min back, I came in late, had to get home from work ;-) 18:15:00 <mattdm> I will repaste the agenda just for you :) 18:15:03 <sghosh> soho, definitely in scope - but we may not be ready to bleed into NextCloud for soho 18:15:06 <mattdm> 1. Introduction, Quick Hello, the Agenda 18:15:08 <mattdm> 2. Basic Framework for What's Needed 18:15:10 <mattdm> 3. Round of Introductions (Who you are, what you're interested in) 18:15:12 <mattdm> 4. Existing Fedora Server WG 18:15:14 <mattdm> 5. Volunteers to actually be on the Working Group 18:15:16 <mattdm> 6. Volunteers for practical action: reviewing and updating the PRD 18:15:18 <mattdm> 7. Other things people are interested in signing up for now 18:15:20 <mattdm> 8. Next meeting: time and who will run it? 18:15:22 <mattdm> y 18:15:25 <mattdm> Does everyone feel they have a basic idea of what the request is? 18:15:36 <niki> mattdm: Thanks 18:15:39 <mattdm> Does anything seem wrong? :) 18:15:46 <sghosh> looks good 18:16:09 <mattdm> Of particular note, I will add explicitly that if it comes down to sgallagh running meetings by himself and he's the only person there, it's not working :) 18:16:27 * sgallagh agrees 18:16:27 <mattdm> sgallagh++ 18:16:27 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for sgallagh changed to 3 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:16:30 <jdubby> Agreed! 18:16:30 <mattdm> for heroism :) 18:16:37 <mattdm> okay, so next agenda item 18:16:47 <mattdm> #topic Round of Introductions (Who you are, what you're interested in) 18:16:56 <langdon> i was there a lot :) 18:17:03 <mattdm> langdon++ 18:17:03 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for langdon changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:17:18 <ab> meetings late EU time are generally hard ;) 18:17:22 * nirik was there for meetings when we had them. ;) 18:17:36 * eseyman is new 18:17:46 * fcami is new /here/ 18:17:48 * defolos is new around this group too 18:17:53 * mattdm is the Fedora Project Leader, one of the people who came up with this edition idea along with sgallagh and others, and before I was FPL a sysadmin for many many years 18:17:57 <sghosh> I had a conflict with my prior job ;) 18:18:00 <mattdm> sghosh :) 18:18:02 <jdubby> John Himpel -- started computing in 1968 -- Interested in SOHO server solutions and web apps. 18:18:10 <sgallagh> ab: They used to be earlier, but that was the most recent whenisgood realignment 18:18:28 * ab did not attend Server meetings as they were too late. Other than that, I am working on FreeIPA and Samba and everything related 18:18:43 <langdon> im very interested in strong container support in "my basement" and in "soho".. including things like openshift 18:18:48 <michel_slm> Hi! I'm Michel Salim, from Facebook's Client OS team. We deploy Fedora (Workstation) as our preferred Linux distro, and I've been recently getting involved in helping drive the btrfs Change Proposal. There are some technologies at FB that we're upstreaming that are more server oriented (e.g. oomd) that I'm interested in getting in Server. 18:18:52 <mattdm> michel_slm++ 18:18:52 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for salimma changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:18:59 <eseyman> I'm looking for a way to easily deploy bugzilla 18:19:06 <michel_slm> We're working on an automated testing for Fedora in-house, and we can add Server to that mix 18:19:08 <sgallagh> I'm Stephen Gallagher, Principal Engineer and long-time steward of Fedora Server. 18:19:10 * nirik is the fedora infrastructure leed on the CPE team. I run many fedora servers. Happy to help out with this, but not sure I can devote full time to it. Happy to see new ideas/people! Welcome everyone. 18:19:12 <mattdm> eseyman -- so basically, a server use case thing. 18:19:17 <sghosh> Subhendu Ghso - enterprise RHEL user, running ~12 Fedora servers soho for proving out solutions/lab 18:19:18 * dcavalca runs CentOS at Facebook; while we don't use Fedora Server in production, I'm interested in ensuring it stays in good shape as it's often a trailblazer 18:19:22 <fcami> François Cami - Fedora contributor, FreeIPA developer, interested in servers, small and big, identity management of course, but also containers (OCP) 18:19:28 <eseyman> exactly, mattdm 18:19:36 <mattdm> sghosh++ 18:19:36 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for sghosh changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:19:37 <sgallagh> dcavalca: Thanks! 18:19:39 <mattdm> dcavalca++ 18:19:40 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for dcavalca changed to 2 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:19:42 <mattdm> cookies for everyone! 18:19:45 * Etceteral - Japheth Cleaver. Primarily interested in small enterprise and mid-term stability. ISP, OpsEng, and monitoring background since 2000, and RHL user since around then. 18:19:53 * daniel-wtd is quite new and for now I am ok to see whats going on ;) (ops/dev/devops for ~15 years now) 18:19:57 <mattdm> Etceteral++ 18:19:59 <mattdm> daniel-wtd++ 18:20:00 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for cleaver changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:20:04 <langdon> ohhh .. and im langdon, former rhel dev advocate, rhel platform architect, now technical marketing for openshift & rhel developer tools 18:20:08 <mattdm> langdon++ 18:20:12 <mattdm> you already have a cookie :) 18:20:17 <PBoyHB> Relatred to the current topc: I_m a scientist in Germany, a long time user of Scientific Linux and Fedora Server. One of my area of expertixe ist writing documentation. 18:20:22 <mattdm> PBoyHB++ 18:20:23 <daniel-wtd> in fas its without the - 18:20:27 * bt0 is a happy fedora contributor looking to help here 18:20:29 <mattdm> daniel++ 18:20:31 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for daniel changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:20:35 <daniel-wtd> danielwtd ^^ 18:20:36 <mattdm> bt0++ 18:20:36 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for bt0dotninja changed to 9 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:20:39 <mattdm> danielwtd++ 18:20:39 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for danielwtd changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:20:43 <daniel-wtd> ;) 18:20:44 <mattdm> well some other daniel got a cookie too :) 18:20:45 <defolos> I'm Dan, your average Fedora contributor who has been using Fedora server as his installation base for a long, long time. As a testing nerd, I'd like to help out with automated testing if possible 18:20:51 <mattdm> defolos++ 18:20:51 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for defolos changed to 6 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:20:55 <daniel-wtd> he will be fine with it, I assume 18:21:02 <mattdm> awesome this is a good group! 18:21:04 <mattdm> anyone else? 18:21:16 <defolos> mattdm++ for resurrecting the Server WG 18:21:16 <zodbot> defolos: Karma for mattdm changed to 7 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:21:23 <mattdm> :) 18:21:29 <kk4ewt> long time fedora user Ambassador and Head of the Respin-Sig I have been producing updated fedora isos since FC% 18:21:39 <mattdm> kk4ewt++ 18:21:39 <kk4ewt> FC5 18:21:42 <mattdm> nice good to see you 18:22:14 <kk4ewt> and long time irc-support member 18:22:17 * langdon must be a nerd cause he immediately looked at keyboard for the % key numebr :) 18:22:23 <mattdm> lol langdon 18:22:27 <sgallagh> langdon: I did exactly that :) 18:22:32 <ab> memorizing helps ;) 18:22:46 <kk4ewt> langdon, not you are a nerd when you dont have to :) 18:22:54 <mattdm> okay, we're already 1/3 into the hour so I'm going to move to the next topic, which I think will be short... 18:23:02 <mattdm> #topic Existing Fedora Server WG 18:23:22 <mattdm> I snuck this one onto the agenda when I notice existing server wg members were quiet on the mailing list about this 18:23:39 <mattdm> and I know people were kind of exhausted so I didn't want to call anyone out 18:23:46 <nirik> well, to be fair, many may be on holidays or haven't seen it yet. 18:23:47 <mattdm> but with a bunch of you here I think this is a non-issue 18:23:51 * sgallagh feels called out anyway ;-) 18:23:51 <langdon> kk4ewt: i had that thought as well... but for some reason thought % == 4 :) 18:23:55 <mattdm> nirik: yes also true 18:24:08 <mattdm> so, my point is DEFINITELY not to make anyone feel called out in a bad way 18:24:18 <mattdm> maybe in a "thank you for getting us so far" way 18:24:27 <Astranox> .hello astra 18:24:28 <zodbot> Astranox: astra 'David Kaufmann' <astra@ionic.at> 18:24:31 <Astranox> sorry for being late 18:24:47 <mattdm> my point was really to address the technical thing of continuity. In order to have a new WG, we need to either follow existing rules or else have the council override 18:24:52 <mattdm> welcome Astranox! 18:25:11 <niki> I have previously worked as a sysadmin at a hosting provider, but doesn't work in IT any more, other that at home, for different projects, and is interested in a server edition, today I'm working with electrical systems and hydraulics, and formal education is in Electronics, have been using Linux exclusively for about 20 years. 18:25:17 <mattdm> niki++ 18:25:17 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for nikgul changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:25:24 <mattdm> the rules for membership are from https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Server/Governance_Charter#Membership 18:25:38 <mattdm> specifically: "New members may be added to the Working Group by being nominated by an existing member, then getting a +1 vote and zero -1 votes from three existing members within a two-week period. After that window is up, the person is added to the group." 18:26:01 <ab> do we really need that? 18:26:09 <mattdm> There also isn't a term, in the current charter ... it's until you want to stop. which is fine, although having an explicit end does give an easy out 18:26:15 <mattdm> ab it's mostly a formality 18:26:35 <mattdm> but in some cases formalities become important when it comes to "who has the authority to make this decision" 18:26:38 <langdon> having a term helped, i think, quite a bit for workstation wg 18:26:46 <ab> From my perspective, a Fedora contributor has more influence to Server edition than to Workgroup. Do we really need that formal workgroup membership approach? 18:26:56 <Etceteral> ab: If it's possible to achieve quorum with that process, it would be best to not need disruption to the continuity. 18:27:24 <ab> Etceteral: I agree -- in case of controversial topics that have no real agreement in advance 18:27:48 <ab> but what if members of the workgroup aren't the one who actually package and mantain the software in question? 18:27:48 <mattdm> yeah, so since I don't think it will be a problem, let's move on from this to the next topic... 18:27:50 <ab> how that changes? 18:27:52 <PBoyHB> ab: In the current situation it may be best just to follow the current rules. 18:27:56 <sgallagh> Well, hold on 18:27:57 <mattdm> oh okay one sec then 18:28:17 <mattdm> holdign on for sgallagh :) 18:28:20 <sgallagh> There *are* situations where formal membership matters and we need to account for that. 18:28:35 <sgallagh> For example, someone needs to act as a meeting chair and/or secretary. 18:28:49 <sgallagh> Establish the agenda ahead of time and manage the meetings. 18:28:54 <mattdm> ab: I do think that the membership should be aligned with people actually doing things. 18:28:56 <mattdm> +1 sgallagh 18:29:11 <langdon> in workstation wg, we made chair/secratary also a term.. and shorter than general members 18:29:14 <sgallagh> And, ultimately, there should be a pre-agreed-upon set of people permitted to make certain important decisions 18:29:28 <sgallagh> Such as representation at the Go/No-Go meetings or signing off on changes to the PRD 18:29:46 <mattdm> ab does that all make sense to you? it does to me :) 18:29:59 <ab> it does -- specifically for the items mentioned 18:30:06 <mattdm> ok cool. the next topic is... 18:30:12 <mattdm> #topic Volunteers to actually be on the Working Group 18:30:51 * michel_slm volunteers 18:30:53 <mattdm> my intention is to take the log from this and file it as a ticket in the fedora server pagure tracker as a slate 18:30:56 <sgallagh> I'm happy to continue. 18:31:08 <fcami> I'm happy to join 18:31:08 <mattdm> yeah so list your names here and I'll extract them after the meeting 18:31:11 <eseyman> I'll gladly participate 18:31:21 <langdon> langdon 18:31:24 * nirik isn't sure he will have time, but can try and continue, and step down if time is too scarce. 18:31:24 <ab> I'm happy to participate 18:31:35 <jdubby> I'm happy to participate 18:31:37 <defolos> happy to join 18:31:38 <mattdm> if your irc nick isn't your fas name please note that for me here 18:31:44 <PBoyHB> Regarding the PRD, I'm ready to contribute. 18:31:49 <ab> mattdm: abbra 18:31:54 <mattdm> PBoyHB: that's coming up :) 18:32:01 <michel_slm> mattdm: salimma 18:32:04 <Astranox> astra (I think I can take some time for it, as I have to test with it anyway) 18:32:05 <jdubby> nicname jdubby fasname jwhimpel 18:32:10 <fcami> mattdm, fcami 18:32:24 <sghosh> tribute to WG 18:32:25 <PBoyHB> Yes, but we need someone experienced to organize the process 18:32:38 <sgallagh> sghosh: Volunteering as tribute? 18:32:56 <michel_slm> sgallagh++ thanks for carrying the Server WG so far 18:32:56 <zodbot> michel_slm: Karma for sgallagh changed to 4 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:33:15 <sghosh> in hunger game mode 18:33:38 <michel_slm> sghosh: better Hunger Games than Battle Royale 18:33:47 <sghosh> +1 18:33:48 <mattdm> sghosh: is that your name on the list then? :) 18:33:51 <kk4ewt> i will do what i can 18:33:53 <sghosh> yes 18:34:09 <kk4ewt> .hello jbwillia 18:34:10 <zodbot> kk4ewt: jbwillia 'Ben Williams' <vaioof@gmail.com> 18:34:13 <mattdm> cool. kk4ewt too? it's okay also to be involved and not make this particular commitment 18:34:57 <mattdm> #action mattdm to file ticket for new slate 18:34:58 <kk4ewt> yes actually i have had people asking how/wanting server respins as well 18:34:59 <x3mboy> .heelo2 18:35:04 <mattdm> kk4ewt cool 18:35:09 <x3mboy> Sorry, I'm a little late 18:35:13 <x3mboy> But I'm here 18:35:14 <mattdm> hello x3mboy a lot late :) 18:35:27 <x3mboy> :_( 18:35:30 <x3mboy> * :-( 18:35:36 <mattdm> x3mboy we're at the "actually volunteering to be on the WG" stage 18:35:53 <x3mboy> Ok, I'm in 18:35:58 <defolos> LOL 18:36:11 <PBoyHB> OK Top 4, I'm in too 18:36:26 <mattdm> ok cool. 18:36:33 <michel_slm> x3mboy: if your IRC nick is different from FAS Matt needs it too 18:37:07 <x3mboy> No, it's not 18:37:13 <mattdm> I'm going to move to the next agenda item. If you didn't get your name in now that's okay there's no rush (membership isn't limited to a specific number so there's no competition) 18:37:22 <x3mboy> Michel Alexandre Salim: but thanks for asking 18:37:22 <mattdm> #topic Volunteers for practical action: reviewing and updating the PRD 18:37:32 <mattdm> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Server/Product_Requirements_Document 18:37:37 <mattdm> #info ^ that's the existing PRD 18:37:46 <mattdm> and I think it's really quite good, but it's also from 2014. 18:37:57 <mattdm> Even in server years, that's a while ago :) 18:38:00 * fcami does to read 18:38:02 <fcami> *goes 18:38:20 <mattdm> fcami no wait don't bother right now because we're not going to fix it right now :) 18:38:24 <mattdm> PBoyHB you're up :) 18:38:46 <mattdm> I just want people who are interested in working on this. Maybe it's the whole wg, but a few people should take point 18:38:50 <PBoyHB> What's missing is a discussion how server relates to curent developmens, coreos cloud, etc. 18:38:51 <daniel-wtd> are server roles (the old ones) still a thing? 18:39:02 <mattdm> both excellent points! 18:39:04 <langdon> PBoyHB: +1 18:39:12 <sghosh> +1 18:39:16 <langdon> daniel-wtd: i wish 18:39:19 <x3mboy> Can we make fun of RHEL and say that "Market Opportunity" is to catch ex-CentOS users? 18:39:22 <sgallagh> So, I suggest we don't start with questions as low-level as "are server roles still a thing" 18:39:30 <mattdm> x3mboy leetttttts not touch that 18:39:33 <sgallagh> We probably want to start with identifying what our *market* is. 18:39:42 <PBoyHB> IÄm ready to contribure, but there should be a formal WG member to organize the work. 18:39:45 <defolos> <mattdm "x3mboy leetttttts not touch that"> definitely agree on that 18:39:47 <mattdm> But in all honestly, some former CentOS users may find it a good fit. 18:39:49 <sgallagh> What it is that we want to excel at 18:40:05 <defolos> agree with sgallagah 18:40:13 <mattdm> sgallagh +1 18:40:31 <langdon> sgallagh: do we want to discuss that here? or in a follow up? 18:40:38 <mattdm> So, with this topic, I am not taking any particular action myself. I'm looking for people to #action themselves on this :) 18:40:45 <niki> I might be able to contribute here and there, but, I have no idea how reliable I am able to be in that regard 18:40:53 <sgallagh> I think that should probably be the first output (on a deadline) of the PRD revitalization team 18:40:55 <mattdm> Not here. Discuss who wants to discuss, and then move on :) 18:41:05 <mattdm> okay, yeah, should we sent a deadline now? 18:41:06 <sgallagh> Well, maybe the second output. 18:41:11 <sghosh> I want to ensure tools/app included are supporting industry change - like IPMI is deprecated, and Redfish is the future 18:41:24 <sgallagh> The first output should be a plan for how to approach the PRD. 18:41:35 * smooge is glad to see a lot of new people 18:41:41 <mattdm> smooge++ 18:41:42 <sgallagh> I.e. decide our market by X date, produce use cases by Y date, etc. 18:41:45 <x3mboy> I can work on the document but I need inputs: targets, marketing strategy, mission and vision 18:41:57 <x3mboy> What I mean, I can help with redaction 18:42:06 <x3mboy> Does it make sense? 18:42:14 <sgallagh> x3mboy: I'm afraid not. 18:42:18 <langdon> x3mboy: revisions? 18:42:20 <mattdm> maybe a differet word from redaction? 18:42:29 <x3mboy> Maybe 18:42:29 <langdon> i think redaction is the opposite of what you meant :) 18:42:33 <sgallagh> Yeah, "redaction" means "hiding sensitive information" :) 18:42:39 <x3mboy> Mmmm 18:42:41 <x3mboy> English 18:42:46 <sgallagh> If we have any of that, we're Doing It Wrong :) 18:42:51 <eseyman> yes, not French 18:42:52 <ab> editing the document ;) 18:42:53 <x3mboy> Ok, I can help writing, but not creating the content? 18:42:53 <michel_slm> maybe editing instead of redaction 18:42:57 <langdon> makes it more secure :) 18:43:20 <langdon> or "revisions" as ^^ 18:43:20 <mattdm> (google's top-level definition for 'redaction' does not actually match usage. do not trust google infoboxes.) 18:43:30 <mattdm> x3mboy++ 18:43:45 * michel_slm does not trust Google (redacted "infoboxes") 18:43:47 <Etceteral> What would we want to use as the process for this? A small sub-WG group? Everyone go all in on wiki edits? Or..? 18:43:48 <sgallagh> "Do not trust Google" is shorter and more accurate :-P 18:43:51 <smooge> anyway.. I understand what you mean x3mboy 18:44:26 <sgallagh> Etceteral: That's why I suggest that the first output of the PRD team be a Plan of Action for revising the PRD 18:44:45 <sgallagh> And yeah, it would essentially be a subcommittee of the Server SIG 18:44:51 <mattdm> Here's what I would suggest: a general session to talk about the high level goals -- the "inputs", as it were. Then two or three people to actually write a draft as a shared document 18:45:04 <mattdm> Etherpad or google docs or something immediately collaborative rather than a wiki 18:45:18 <smooge> hackmd 18:45:20 <eseyman> yes, please 18:45:22 <mattdm> then take that to the whole group for approval and edits 18:45:26 <mattdm> yeah hackmd 18:45:33 <mattdm> I don't care which tool :) 18:45:41 <dcavalca> happy to be part of the conversation around this 18:45:41 <smooge> etherpad is for us old people 18:45:43 <mattdm> does that process make sense? 18:45:51 <bt0> hackmd makes sense 18:45:52 <Astranox> difficult question. I've certainly got opinions, what I'd like to keep/change in there, but not sure how this should be discussed. 18:45:57 <PBoyHB> mattdm: agree to "shared document"! 18:46:06 <dcavalca> mattdm: sounds good to me 18:46:07 <x3mboy> hackmd FTW! 18:46:24 <defolos> +1 on a shared document and maybe a ML discussion thread? 18:47:09 <ab> +1 18:47:12 <sgallagh> Given that the document is six years old, starting from scratch might be better than revising in-place. 18:47:14 <mattdm> 15 minutes left in the hour. Anyone want to volunteer to be one of the two or three authors, and to start that thread and schedule the general session? 18:47:16 <x3mboy> Since I'm volunteering for writing, I propose formally hackmd as collaborative platform for the document 18:47:29 <mattdm> s/15/12/, really 18:47:34 <x3mboy> Yes, me 18:47:39 <mattdm> x3mboy okay awesome. 18:47:40 <PBoyHB> We could collect ideas on the server mailing list and someone shpould compose it into a schared document fpr futher editing 18:47:46 <langdon> im happy to help author.. not so good with MLs 18:47:55 <mattdm> sounds like PBoyHB is the second volunteer and langdon the third :) 18:47:56 <Etceteral> +1 to collaborative editing. I suggest AOCE. 18:48:11 <mattdm> PBoyHB what is your FAS id? 18:48:23 <Etceteral> (Note: I do not suggest AOCE.) 18:48:42 <mattdm> #info langdon x3mboy PBoyHB to take point on getting a draft PRD revision 18:48:50 <PBoyHB> mattdm: My Fas is pboy 18:48:56 <mattdm> PBoyHB thanks 18:49:05 <defolos> x3mboy++ 18:49:06 <x3mboy> pboy++ 18:49:06 <zodbot> x3mboy: Karma for pboy changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:49:07 <defolos> pboy++ 18:49:09 <zodbot> defolos: Karma for pboy changed to 2 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:49:10 <x3mboy> langdon++ 18:49:12 <zodbot> x3mboy: Karma for langdon changed to 2 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:49:15 <mattdm> okay ten minutes to go :) 18:49:23 <mattdm> #topic Other things people are interested in signing up for now 18:49:31 <sgallagh> Keep me in the loop on this as well; I don't have the cycles to be one of the primary authors, but I'd be happy to provide feedback and revision 18:49:36 <mattdm> sgallagh++ 18:49:48 <eseyman> do we have any use for Ansible playbooks 18:49:49 <eseyman> ? 18:50:04 <sghosh> same as sgallagh - provide feedback and revisions 18:50:04 <sgallagh> eseyman: Too low-level at this point. 18:50:17 <sgallagh> I think we need to figure out what our goals are, first. 18:50:24 <daniel-wtd> Before starting to write something down. Are there any indicators what the target group wants/desires/requires? 18:50:34 <michel_slm> I plan to help push the oomd Change proposal that we're currently working on. hoping to have more cycles for the next release (35) 18:50:37 <mattdm> eseyman: yes, we totally do. 18:50:46 <sgallagh> eseyman: That said, it's quite likely we'll be wanting to contribute to https://linux-system-roles.github.io/ 18:51:00 <x3mboy> mattdm, A thing that is bouncing in my head is, How an "Edition" is so abandoned? How it get built? Who is creating/updating kickstarts files to create the ISOs? 18:51:02 <sghosh> easy to deploy on single node in isolated/bw constrained env 18:51:06 <Etceteral> A revision of the package groups at install-time? 18:51:10 <eseyman> sgallagh: yes, that's what I was thinking of 18:51:17 <sghosh> minimal bootstrap footprint 18:51:19 <sgallagh> x3mboy: It's been on life-support, mostly maintained by me and Fedora releng 18:51:21 <mattdm> sgallagh, eseyman -- I'd love to see that be a formal conenction 18:51:28 <mattdm> Etceteral: yes. absolutely. 18:51:44 <mattdm> sghosh: yes. lines up with the Minimization objective too 18:52:06 <sghosh> secure by desing - extending into TPM support, disk encryption enablement 18:52:08 <nirik> I'd love fedora builders to be considered a use case. ;) (since I have to maintain them anyhow), or perhaps in addtion to a number of other use cases. 18:52:19 <x3mboy> sgallagh: it makes sense. So we are just life-supporting the existing 2014 PRD / objetive / mission&vision? 18:52:21 <langdon> do we have any official situation with "cloud edition" or whatnot? 18:52:23 <mattdm> Also, I want to throw out my long-standing thing for anyone to pick up: merging in the Cloud Base image so it's basically just an alternate deploy of server 18:52:44 <sghosh> + alternate deploy of server 18:52:48 <mattdm> #info lots of good ideas and energy here that I am not going to formalize but am excited to see 18:52:49 <sghosh> +1 18:52:54 <sgallagh> x3mboy: Much of that PRD is outdated. The Server Roles in that plan were abandoned. 18:52:55 <langdon> mattdm: i think thats kinda what i was saying too 18:52:58 <langdon> +vagrant 18:53:00 <michel_slm> do we have anyone interested in Cloud represented here? sounds like that's a good thing to have 18:53:09 <mattdm> dustymabe ^^^^ 18:53:14 <x3mboy> sgallagh: not anymore ;-) 18:53:28 <dcavalca> I was about to ask, whoever maintains the current Cloud image should be involved in this conversation IMO 18:53:33 <mattdm> Dusty has been basically pulling this along in his spare time, so we should pull him in (and then lighten the load) 18:53:39 <nirik> there's a cloud SIG... 18:53:55 <mattdm> nirik: there's a cloud sig _mailing list_ at least :) 18:53:59 <Etceteral> A goal might also be pushing for text-only mechanisms for all relevant administrative functions (cf. the gpg-agent discussion) 18:54:00 <dustymabe> 👀 18:54:03 <nirik> they have been meeting regularly too. 18:54:27 <mattdm> oh cool. that's good to hear. I actually hadn't been watching closely. 18:54:32 <sgallagh> Etceteral: Can you explain what you mean, there? 18:54:35 <mattdm> so, yeah, this should be a colaboration there 18:54:35 <nirik> https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/sresults/?group_id=fedora_cloud_meeting&type=team 18:55:03 <dustymabe> yep. bi-weekly meetings 18:55:05 <nirik> perhaps they would be interested in folding into the server working group... but not sure what their goals are. 18:55:10 <mattdm> dustymabe cool. +1 to all 18:55:30 <mattdm> yeah, i'm cool with either combining energy or just having a collaboration. whichever works best 18:55:34 <x3mboy> It's a great group, I always sneak in their meetings 18:55:42 <x3mboy> Collab sounds better 18:55:54 <Astranox> dustymabe: do you know if the current state of cloud image is very similar/different from server? 18:56:14 <PBoyHB> Server includes bare metal, a big difference. 18:56:14 <mattdm> and if the end result is they stay separate images i'm cool with that too as long as we have a good story as to why one would pick each 18:56:18 <dustymabe> I'm not sure what the differences in the package sets are 18:56:44 <mattdm> If it's just "slightly different package set, different install target" that's really a case for merging 18:56:52 <langdon> personally, i can see cloud, server, vagrant all being separate "images" ... but i don't know why they are the same WG in a sense.. the goals/overlap seems like almost complete 18:56:53 <nirik> well, there's not a server installed image is there? 18:56:57 <Etceteral> sgallagh: Just having a statement from the group (when necessary) about non-GUI admin being A Thing... The desktop side of things gets a lot of attention, but a Server WG needs to evangelize servers (where a GUI is far less likely to be present) IMO. 18:57:01 <langdon> *they are NOT 18:57:06 <mattdm> But, we are very close to the end of the hour and there's one important topic to get to before then. 18:57:15 <x3mboy> I think we need to make a specific use of the Fedora server image and not "to have a minimal installation and built from there" 18:57:21 <mattdm> So let's pin this as Important Future Work and go to.... 18:57:22 <nirik> Etceteral: cockpit? 18:57:23 <Etceteral> langdon: Lots of overlap there with Minimization, I think. Especially the non-systemd-containers in https://pagure.io/minimization/issue/2 18:57:27 <mattdm> #topic Next meeting: time and who will run it? 18:57:43 <mattdm> Because I am happy to kick this off, but do not volunteer to chair future meetings :) 18:57:43 <michel_slm> if this meeting room is available then, same time works for me 18:57:45 <langdon> Etceteral: yeah.. see edit.. i was trying to say "lots of overlap" 18:58:00 <michel_slm> do we want to wait until January for the next one? 18:58:02 <sgallagh> Etceteral: GUIs are much nicer for admins to deal with. That's why we've poured a lot of effort into Cockpit 18:58:20 <sgallagh> It can live on a headless system and still provide a graphical interface to management. 18:58:36 <mattdm> (this timeslot is generally free in this room on fedocal) 18:58:37 <x3mboy> #proposal bi-weeely, starting 1st January week same day and hour ( 01-06-2020 ) 18:58:38 <sgallagh> (And Cockpit has been driving a Renaissance in proper APIs) 18:58:42 <dcavalca> +1 for this time slot if it's available on an ongoing basis 18:58:48 <x3mboy> * #proposal bi-weeely, starting 1st week's January same day and hour ( 01-06-2020 ) 18:58:49 <mattdm> looks like it is. 18:58:52 <Etceteral> sgallagh: This may be an area where Ent and SoHo diverge a bit 18:58:55 <Etceteral> +1 for this time slot too 18:59:10 <michel_slm> x3mboy: +1 18:59:11 <bt0> +1 18:59:12 <jdubby> sgallagh If you have dozens or hundreds of servers, cockpit does not scale well 18:59:13 <langdon> i am not sure why we would invest in anything *aside* from cockpit.. because thats how all the things are going.. even if it is a local electron or some such of cockpit if you were at the server gui 18:59:16 <sgallagh> Etceteral: I'd be interested to continue this discussion over in #fedora-server 18:59:30 <langdon> -1 on this time 18:59:34 * michel_slm joins that channel 18:59:35 <mattdm> yeah next person who says 'cockpit' has volunteered to chair the next meeting 18:59:42 <langdon> i normally teach a class now.. but we are in the between semesters window 18:59:46 <Etceteral> sgallagh: Sure 19:00:04 <jdubby> A couple of hours earlier would be nice 19:00:07 <mattdm> it's probably better to do another whenisgood because there's survivor bias in picking the time _at_ the time 19:00:15 <langdon> mattdm: yes please 19:00:20 <sgallagh> mattdm++ 19:00:20 <zodbot> sgallagh: Karma for mattdm changed to 8 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 19:00:24 <langdon> cause wednesdays in general are very bad for me 19:00:29 <mattdm> Again, I will not be running that. 19:00:34 <michel_slm> mattdm++ for coordinating this 19:00:36 <mattdm> So now we need _two_ volunteers :) 19:00:36 <zodbot> michel_slm: Karma for mattdm changed to 9 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 19:00:44 <langdon> x3mboy: is that you then? for being our new leader :) 19:00:48 * dcavalca has to run off to another meeting now, thanks for organizing this! 19:00:51 <mattdm> michel_slm: yes, glad to get it started 19:01:05 <x3mboy> Ok, I can do it 19:01:17 <mattdm> x3mboy: both the whenisgood and chair the next meeting? 19:01:23 <x3mboy> langdon: that's fingercracy! 19:01:40 <sgallagh> Probably better to select the chair once the timeslot is known 19:01:40 <langdon> hahaha 19:01:41 <mattdm> note that rotating chair is a perfectly good policy so you don't need to make a permanent committment. just to the next one. 19:01:41 <x3mboy> mattdm: sure 19:01:51 <mattdm> x3mboy++ 19:02:02 <mattdm> #action x3mboy to find time for and chair the next meeting 19:02:17 <x3mboy> mattdm: +1 I will chair just the next meeting 19:02:17 <mattdm> awesome. thanks everyone! 19:02:20 <x3mboy> xD 19:02:37 <mattdm> #info someone else start thinking about chairing the meeting after that :) 19:02:38 <langdon> x3mboy++ 19:02:39 <zodbot> langdon: Karma for x3mboy changed to 10 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 19:02:42 <langdon> mattdm++ 19:02:42 <zodbot> langdon: Karma for mattdm changed to 10 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 19:02:47 <mattdm> it's not hard you just have to tell people "time to move on" a lot :) 19:02:59 <mattdm> and there we go 19:03:01 <mattdm> #endmeeting