21:00:50 <kanarip> #startmeeting Spins SIG
21:00:50 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Oct 26 21:00:50 2009 UTC.  The chair is kanarip. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:00:50 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
21:01:05 <kanarip> shall we start with who's here?
21:01:13 * biertie is here :)
21:01:18 <brunowolff> Bruno is here
21:01:27 * kanarip is here
21:01:34 <kanarip> and maxamillion is here as i understand
21:01:44 * kanarip votes Open Floor
21:02:29 <brunowolff> Is this time going to stay with daylight time ending?
21:02:33 * nirik is here somewhat
21:02:55 <biertie> brunowolff: if it depends on me, I would let it on this our
21:03:05 <biertie> but I don't know how it works out for the USA people here
21:03:27 <kanarip> afaik, we have meetings at 21:00 UTC, which just so happens to shift with DST compared to our local times
21:03:34 <brunowolff> Normally it's OK with me, but it might be bad the next two Mondays.
21:04:04 <brunowolff> I think it is more important for our wrangler and chair to be able to make meetings than myself.
21:04:11 <biertie> KageSenshi: DST?
21:04:21 <biertie> kanarip: DST?
21:04:22 <kanarip> well if we want to make it 22:00 UTC for when there's DST let's go ahead and take a vote
21:04:36 <kanarip> biertie, Daylight Savings Time which is what happened this weekend in Europe
21:04:51 <brunowolff> It's fine with me either way. I was more worried about the change being bad for you guys.
21:05:06 <kanarip> all change is bad for me
21:05:06 <biertie> ach lol, yes, so it shifted an hour early
21:05:12 <kanarip> that is why i am such an enthusiastic debian user
21:05:12 * nirik doesn't care as long as we pick one.
21:05:19 <biertie> that's perfect for me, because it's already 22h here
21:05:26 <biertie> but yeah, if it moves back to 23h, that's ok for me too :)
21:05:47 <biertie> or 22h UTC
21:06:03 <kanarip> #agreed no change to the meeting time 'cause of freaking DST unless someone screams
21:06:05 * XulWork votes to remove daylight savings time in the US
21:06:29 <brunowolff> Yeah, I hate DST / ST changes. It's a big waste.
21:06:37 <kanarip> anyone against my motion for Open Floor? no?
21:06:38 <biertie> XulWork: let's do the same in europe ;-)
21:06:41 <kanarip> #topic Open Floor
21:06:43 <kanarip> there you go
21:06:53 <kanarip> nirik, what was that thing-name-command again for zodbot ?
21:07:10 <nirik> you mean #meetingname ?
21:07:16 <kanarip> yeah, that's the one
21:07:23 <kanarip> #meetingname spins-sig
21:07:23 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'spins-sig'
21:08:08 <biertie> BOEIEND
21:08:10 <kanarip> does anyone have anything to say?
21:08:23 <kanarip> how about that Beta huh?
21:08:27 <Oxf13> woo!
21:08:52 <brunowolff> Other than some annoying late changes in packages things seem OK for the games spin.
21:09:06 <brunowolff> Marian had a mockup that looked nice for it.
21:09:14 <kanarip> things seem ok for you too Oxf13 ? ;-)
21:09:25 <Oxf13> yeah, mostly
21:09:31 <Oxf13> no major complaints
21:09:39 <nirik> is there any word on the new download site? still being setup? do we need to get them any more content?
21:09:45 <kanarip> anything minor while the floor is open and people are listening?
21:09:57 <Oxf13> games spin is too big (:
21:10:03 <kanarip> i would ask... mizmo ;-)
21:10:05 <Oxf13> (not really, it's still under dvd size)
21:10:10 <brunowolff> Beta is old news. A few kernels / X server changes since then seem to be helping my video stability.
21:10:19 <biertie> cool!
21:10:30 <Oxf13> post-beta kernel is certainly faster
21:10:32 <kanarip> brunowolff, that's GOOD(!!!!) news!
21:11:00 <brunowolff> I'll take a look at it again. It was OK size wise last week. By over 100MB.
21:11:17 <kanarip> nirik, there working on something in #fedora-admin right now i believe
21:11:19 <brunowolff> (At least when I do the livecd creator builds.)
21:11:35 <Oxf13> brunowolff: I meant "too big" as in it takes a long time to make and move around
21:11:41 <brunowolff> Is that something you saw very recently?
21:11:58 <brunowolff> Oh. Sure give me a heart attack.
21:12:19 <kanarip> ouch ;-)
21:12:30 <biertie> haha, relax biertie ;)
21:12:37 <biertie> haha, relax brunowolff ;)
21:13:06 <kanarip> you relax too biertie
21:13:20 <biertie> I am too relaxed :(
21:13:33 <brunowolff> On the size front, lzma-squashfs didn't get into 2.6.32 and I still haven't seen any mention by Luogher of doing it since
21:13:42 <kanarip> biertie, your Belgian, stop drinking beer
21:13:46 <brunowolff> just before the 2.6.31 merge window closed.
21:13:59 <kanarip> brunowolff, but it's on it's way though, right?
21:14:15 <brunowolff> Well I wouldn't hold my breath.
21:14:25 <kanarip> i rarely do; i'm a smoker
21:14:30 <brunowolff> Probably Lougher or someone else will eventually do it.
21:14:46 <brunowolff> If nothing else openwrt might do something.
21:14:59 <kanarip> so...
21:15:05 <kanarip> i'm just going to throw it out there
21:15:24 <kanarip> do we have anything to say about the default spin topic?
21:15:24 <brunowolff> They are currently using a pretty old kernel, but once the get the second update for the current version out,
21:15:30 <kanarip> which spin should be the default spin etc?
21:15:36 <brunowolff> they might move to a recent kernel and get it working.
21:15:41 <kanarip> hey GeroldKa, just in time ;-)
21:15:59 <GeroldKa> hi
21:16:02 <kanarip> i think i do have something to say about the default spin for Fedora
21:16:03 <GeroldKa> in which time?
21:16:14 <kanarip> Greenwich Main Time GeroldKa ;-)
21:16:14 <biertie> daylight saving time
21:16:15 <biertie> :p
21:16:28 <brunowolff> I think it's tough. I didn't like the crazy ideas such as rotating the default spin each release.
21:16:43 <kanarip> it isn't necessarily each release, of course
21:17:10 <brunowolff> I think using the gnome spin as the default and making the KDE alternative also prominent is the best solution.
21:17:11 <kanarip> i do think however every Fedora-approved-endorsed-yadayada Desktop Environment deserves a chance to be the default spin
21:17:41 <kanarip> for one, a precondition would be a proven track record in past releases, and maybe even being a permanent spin rather then a Spins SIG spin is a prerequisite
21:18:21 <brunowolff> That is going to confuse people who upgrade by doing fresh installs.
21:19:01 <biertie> kanarip: that would mean we have to change anaconda a bit
21:19:08 <brunowolff> I had to use the xfce desktop a while back because gnome was triggering some bug that was crashing my system and it
21:19:13 <kanarip> what's wrong with educating people about what DE they run, and thus what they should choose if they like what they have?
21:19:15 <brunowolff> is a lot different.
21:19:21 <kanarip> biertie, no, just comps.xml
21:19:27 <biertie> like downloading fedora, and during the install, you get a intuitive window: what window manager do you want to use?
21:19:37 * nirik thinks this is beyond the scope of this sig. ;)
21:19:39 <biertie> well, it's just a different approach :)
21:19:41 <kanarip> brunowolff, XFCE for one is not a permanent spin (yet)
21:20:04 <kanarip> nirik, well i've seen too many discussions on spins not in scope for the Spins SIG
21:20:10 <kanarip> and maybe that's my main point
21:20:18 <brunowolff> I was commenting on the desktop manager. I didn't actually do a new install to use it.
21:20:35 <brunowolff> We do seem to have a target audiance now.
21:21:07 <brunowolff> The FAB mailing list seem to come to a general agreement on the kind of person Fedora is primarily for.
21:21:07 <kanarip> so the question becomes;
21:21:20 <nirik> asking new users what DE they want is likely to confuse them.
21:21:27 <kanarip> do we, or do we not, want to say something on this topic as a SIG?
21:21:41 <kanarip> personally i don't care about new users
21:21:50 <kanarip> frankly i don't care about users at all
21:21:58 <kanarip> i care about potential contributors
21:22:04 <brunowolff> I think we should be more concerned with the quality of the spins. The which spin issue is pretty charged right now
21:22:25 <biertie> brunowolff: +1
21:22:32 <nirik> say to who? for what reason?
21:22:38 <brunowolff> and I think a larger group needs to come to a consensus on the path we should be following.
21:23:19 <biertie> brunowolff: like, the board? ;)
21:23:37 <kanarip> nirik, as in: do we, as the Spins SIG, want to chime in on the discussion, in ways of finally saying "yeah!" or "god no!" when we've made up our minds?
21:24:02 <kanarip> or do we just chime in as individuals and is the Spins SIG no party in this at all?
21:24:16 <brunowolff> Well, the board may eventually have to weigh in with a decision, but there are people who are not on the board that hold
21:24:22 <brunowolff> opinions on this.
21:24:37 <nirik> kanarip: ah, well, I guess that comes down to if everyone in the sig can reach some consensis
21:25:32 <XulWork> default spin wont matter in a couple years because gnome will be dead ;-)
21:25:37 <brunowolff> I gave my opinion on what I think would be best, but I am not strongly tied to it.
21:25:45 <biertie> XulWork: why do you think that?
21:25:50 <kanarip> nirik, that's why i asked the question earlier, but let me rephrase; do we want to, or do we not want to, be able to make suggestions and recommendations on this kind of topic as a Spins SIG?
21:25:58 <biertie> I think gnome 3 is awesmoe, because it's so radical new
21:26:04 <kanarip> XulWork, please stick to the issue at hand
21:26:07 <biertie> you dare, you convince, you win! ;-)
21:26:16 <biertie> if the ux is superb at least :)
21:26:19 <kanarip> biertie, you too ;-)
21:27:01 <biertie> hehe :)
21:27:16 <nirik> personally, I don't think Xfce is set to be the default desktop spin currently. We don't have enough people and docs are geared toward other things, etc. I think Gnome is setup that way now, and KDE could well match it.
21:28:00 <kanarip> we're not so much saying which right now, we're just talking about whether we are to chime in these kind of discussions as a group
21:28:39 <nirik> I think if we feel strongly on it and can reach consensus I think it would be fine for us to do so...
21:28:58 <brunowolff> I don't think we have taken much of a marketing view up to this point, and in a lot of ways I think this is a how to market
21:29:02 <brunowolff> Fedora issue.
21:29:36 <biertie> that's true
21:29:40 <nirik> yeah, I think all the spins could use better marketing... but not sure I know how to do it. ;(
21:30:08 <biertie> fist we need to have a redesigned spins page + main download page
21:30:19 <biertie> but that's on it's way ;-)
21:30:52 <XulWork> do we have statistics on # of downloads of each spin?
21:31:08 <nirik> XulWork: yeah, on the torrent page.
21:31:24 <nirik> http://torrent.fedoraproject.org:6969/
21:32:19 <XulWork> heh some of these spins are < 10 downloads
21:32:45 <kanarip> through torrent, sure
21:32:47 <nirik> well, alpha/beta ones arent too popular sometimes.
21:33:35 <kanarip> look at the number of seeds for some of them
21:33:50 <kanarip> if it's not a fast seed or anything, how long are you going to download these spins for?
21:34:03 <biertie> can't we count how many installations we have via smolt?
21:35:02 <biertie> edit
21:35:07 <biertie> stupid question..
21:35:49 <mether> biertie, smolt doesnt have collect package data
21:35:58 <mether> except for a select few like the kernel
21:36:25 <biertie> it also sends the OS version
21:36:32 <biertie> like F 11 or 10
21:36:39 <biertie> but not the spin off course
21:36:43 <mether> yes but how do you collect spin  info from there
21:36:54 <biertie> let me work on that !
21:37:16 <XulWork> add an /etc/spin  or modify /etc/issue or /etc/release
21:37:16 <kanarip> a simple fedora-xfce-release with %post sed for /etc/system-release
21:37:34 <kanarip> Fedora 11 (Leonidas XFCE)
21:37:40 <kanarip> or something like that
21:37:53 <kanarip> or, do it in %post on the spin
21:37:54 <biertie> but then smolt get's confused in his stats
21:37:59 <kanarip> fedora-release is rarely updated
21:38:13 <kanarip> biertie, ohw come on
21:38:15 <biertie> because Fedora XFCE 11, is still fedora 11
21:38:25 <biertie> so, we should search something else
21:38:37 <biertie> #action discuss with loupgaroublond on how to implement this
21:39:23 <Oxf13> that will break any time we issue a fedora-release update
21:39:26 <Oxf13> which we've done in the past.
21:39:26 <kanarip> biertie, how about OS_VERSION=`cat /etc/system-release | sed -r -e 's/(Fedora [0-9]* \([A-Za-z])\)/\1\)/g'`
21:39:51 <XulWork> why not just make an /etc/spin?
21:39:56 <biertie> and what do you do for suse? :D
21:40:14 <kanarip> Oxf13, like i'm saying, as fedora-release is barely updated, a courteous statistics-gathering thing could be to just modify /etc/fedora-release
21:40:48 <kanarip> isn't /etc/fedora-release considered a config(noreplace) ? ;-)
21:41:18 <kanarip> ah, nope
21:42:03 <biertie> hehe =)
21:43:44 <biertie> but something like /etc/spin sounds perfect for me!
21:44:37 <kanarip> i think there's various people that would argue about the exact implementation but if you feel like you have the solution...
21:44:44 <kanarip> I say go for it Sierra 1!
21:45:41 <biertie> I'm not alone on who has to dicide on this :(
21:47:51 <kanarip> that's why we are a SIG
21:48:09 <kanarip> otherwise Fedora Unity would have ... nevermind
21:48:15 * nirik has to run for a bit... ;( will look at logs when I get back.
21:48:34 <kanarip> all in favor of biertie pursuiing /etc/spin or whatever for smolt statistics??
21:48:37 <kanarip> +1 from me
21:48:53 <XulWork> +1 from me
21:49:15 <XulWork> doesn't necessarily need ot be /etc/spin, but some way to collect stats from smolt is important IMO
21:49:45 <brunowolff> +1
21:49:51 <kanarip> #agreed biertie to pursue collecting stats through smolt
21:49:52 <kanarip> ;-)
21:49:57 <biertie> XulWork: I agree with you ;)
21:50:15 <biertie> kanarip: let's test the task manager on my cellphone ;-)
21:50:41 <kanarip> *after* you've finalized the t-shirt for Toronto please
21:50:49 <biertie> it IS ready
21:50:57 <kanarip> sure... really?
21:51:09 <biertie> mizmo: approved it this morning ;)
21:51:15 <kanarip> that's a wrap guys?
21:51:26 * kanarip motions to close the meeting
21:51:58 * kanarip closing the meeting in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...
21:52:08 <biertie> 0.9
21:52:10 <biertie> 0?8
21:52:12 <biertie> ;-)
21:52:21 <biertie> time warping is so cool
21:52:26 <kanarip> #endmeeting