00:35:21 <mchua> #startmeeting
00:35:21 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Nov  9 00:35:21 2009 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
00:35:21 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
00:35:47 <mchua> Welcome to http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_APAC - the first one, anyway - at Nanyang Polytechnic.
00:36:10 <mchua> We're writing in from Singapore, and it's Monday, November 9th, 2009. We've got about a 25-minute wait until festivities begin.
00:36:27 <mchua> ...during which I'm going to try to figure out how to get root on these machines so we can install a couple packages. Woo!
00:36:44 <mchua> Oh, and take some pictures so y'all can see what's going on. :)
00:42:09 <mchua> And here we are! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnK9P1iMTpQ
00:44:35 <mchua> We also have a backchannel for Chinese (simplified) in #teachingopensource-posse-zh; I'll go get zodbot sent over there now.
00:58:39 <mchua> All right, zodbot's logging in the Chinese channel too. Now I have to get Harish in here...
00:58:43 <mchua> #chair harish
00:58:43 <zodbot> Current chairs: harish mchua
01:00:56 <mchua> #topic Introductions
01:01:41 <mchua> Mr. Lai Poh Hing, Director – School of Information Technology at Nanyang Poly doing an intro.
01:04:40 <mchua> And Mr. Arun Kumar, Services Director of RH APAC, doing another intro.
01:04:52 <mchua> Pretty general "welcome, yay for sharing knowledge" introductions.
01:07:02 <mchua> Arun describing his college experience - he was interested in systems programming, but never learned anything except the theory of device drivers.
01:07:16 <mchua> He never got to see code for a device driver. But now with open source, you can!
01:07:52 <mchua> Mentioning the first POSSE in Raleigh this past summer.
01:10:50 <mchua> Talking about how this group will become ambassadors of open source to their institutions.
01:12:58 <mchua> Didn't catch the current speaker's name, but he's talking about an APAC-region innovations network that recently launched.
01:13:45 <mchua> Alan has managed to get and involve 2,000 people in that effort within Singapore alone (go, Alan!)
01:13:57 <mchua> POSSE focuses not just on the student community, but on the educators.
01:14:16 <mchua> If you look at the heat map around the world about where OSS is put to good use, APAC uses a lot.
01:14:20 <mchua> The challenge now is to contribute.
01:14:44 <mchua> POSSE will bridge the gap in terms of learning who to talk to and how to contribute, etc.
01:15:12 <mchua> "If the student and the lecturer are willing to share, maybe the problem is they don't know how."
01:15:22 <mchua> Asian culture highly values sharing.
01:15:34 <mchua> So hopefully in the next 18-24 months we will see a lot of contributions from APAC.
01:16:07 <mchua> We hear from businesses that open source is cost-effective but it is useless if nobody is there to support it.
01:16:09 <mchua> And students need jobs.
01:16:20 <mchua> So we can put the two pieces together here.
01:16:47 <spevack> mchua: how many students are there, in the end?
01:17:01 <spevack> everything sounds good so far
01:17:03 * mchua counts
01:17:36 <mchua> I count 23 people sitting in student seats, but there are a few empty student seats and a lot more people in the room.
01:17:42 <spevack> cool
01:17:47 <mchua> Intros from participants now.
01:18:34 <mchua> Jaric Sng, Nanyang Polytechnic: uses open source a lot.
01:19:33 <mchua> Me: I work for Red Hat, I do CommArch/Fedora/POSSE stuff.
01:20:08 <mchua> Harish Pillay, Red Hat: first exposure to FSF in 1986, old-skool emacs user.
01:20:26 <mchua> Harish going "this is an experimental program, first time in APAC. We're going to learn a lot of new things, break a lot of old rules."
01:22:13 <mchua> Tirath Singh, PECM (Malaysia): introduced to open source via using Red Hat Linux.
01:23:54 <mchua> Cheong Poh Yee, Nanyan Polytechnic: (sorry, missed intro)
01:24:07 <mchua> Zhang Xinyi, Shanghai Business School: <intro in Chinese>
01:24:31 * mchua thinks we need transbot both ways, really
01:25:32 <mchua> Ye Long, Shanghai Business School: teaches students and thinks OSS participation will help them find jobs.
01:26:20 <mchua> Many of his students use OSS software, more and more now, they should produce it too.
01:27:06 <mchua> Lim Kin Chew, Senior Lecturer and Research Fellow at SIM University
01:27:13 <mchua> <Chinese>
01:27:44 <mchua> Martyn Yap, Senior System Analyst from SIM University
01:29:27 * mchua not quite keeping up with intros
01:29:39 <mchua> I believe right now we have Roger Chiun, Lecturer from Singapore Poly
01:29:49 <mchua> Also, everyone knows Harish and Alan :)
01:34:42 <mchua> welcome, hers!
01:35:17 * mchua *completely* missing intros in Mandarin
01:35:37 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_APAC#Attendees
01:36:33 <mchua> harish: I'd like to quickly get everybody on IRC before you show the video, because some of the text is pretty rapid and it makes a good first backchannel-translation test.
01:36:46 <harish> ok
01:37:09 * mchua looking for howto on setting up Chinese input with SCIM; it's been a while since I tried
01:37:27 * harish clueless
01:39:37 <mchua> It seems like the common thread here is that most everybody knows about open source, a good number of people use at least some programs, if not an open source OS (typically some Linux distro) but I haven't heard a single contributor yet
01:39:45 <mchua> (which is ok, that's what we get to teach this week)
01:39:59 <harish> none are contributors, yet :-)
01:40:07 <harish> consumers not contributors
01:42:21 <mchua> I may have figured Chinese input out. I have to restart GNOME to see.
01:47:56 <mchua> Hrm. Have I gotten Chinese input to work?
01:47:58 * mchua tests
01:49:25 <mchua> ...not yet. Okay.
01:51:17 <mchua> Oh, I have to restart X completely. Okay. Uh... brb.
01:54:43 <hers> mchua_~ hi, you don't use ibus? no restart X is required because it is loaded through gtk immodule
01:54:51 <hers> scim can do that too
01:55:18 <mchua> hers: can you help walk me through setting it up? I'm not used to typing in anything other than English.
01:56:32 <hers> mchua~ sure. you have imsettings installed right?
01:58:04 <hers> mchua~ and im-chooser, then ibus-pinyin, or scim-pinyin since you prefer scim
01:59:01 <hers> run im-chooser, choose to start ibus regardless of the desktop language environment
02:02:37 <hers> mchua~ did I misunderstand you.. feel like so
02:05:45 * mchua tries that...
02:06:55 <mchua> hers: Everyone else is off eating snacks now, so we have some time.
02:07:07 * mchua plans on going back and cleaning out the leftovers once we figure this out ;)
02:31:58 <MartynYap> hi all
02:34:14 <POSSE_APAC> This is IRC, or Internet Relay Chat.
02:35:16 <jasonchong> join #teachingopensource-posse-zh
02:35:40 <POSSE_APAC> jasonchong: you have to put a slash before the join, try /join #teachingopensource-posse-zh
02:35:51 <lhy_> hi everyone
02:35:55 <POSSE_APAC> IRC is important because it is what a lot of open source projects use to communicate.
02:35:57 <POSSE_APAC> hello, lhy!
02:35:59 <zhangxinyi> join #teachingopensource-posse-zh
02:36:06 <pohyee-cheong> hi everyone
02:36:19 <tester_> hi
02:36:20 <tester_> hi
02:36:21 <hers> 早上好
02:36:24 <POSSE_APAC> zhangxinyi: put a / before the join - "/join #teachingopensource-posse-zh"
02:36:38 <zhangxinyi> hillle
02:36:40 <jasonchong> xD
02:36:49 <Jaric> hello everyone
02:36:49 <POSSE_APAC> Since open source communities have many people from all over the world, and we need to be able to work together, using IRC is how we talk.
02:36:54 <zhangxinyi> this is zhang xinyi
02:36:54 <POSSE_APAC> Hello, Jaric!
02:37:00 <POSSE_APAC> hello, zhangxinyi!
02:37:05 <POSSE_APAC> It's great to see a lot of new people in the channel.
02:37:10 <tester_> Hi, I am Ye Long
02:37:12 <POSSE_APAC> Is anyone having trouble getting on?
02:37:16 <MartynYap> nopes
02:37:21 <zhangxinyi> hello JARic
02:37:24 <lkc-ninja> Not for me.
02:37:26 <POSSE_APAC> Hi, tester_ - would you like to change your nickname?
02:37:40 <POSSE_APAC> You can change your name with "/nick newname" (no quotes)
02:37:40 <MartynYap> how to change nick w/o logging out?
02:37:40 <tira> hello everybody at POSSE
02:37:43 <POSSE_APAC> it will look like this
02:37:53 <Jaric> :)
02:37:57 <YeLong> Tnk
02:38:02 <YeLong> Thk
02:38:03 <zhangxinyi> hello every body
02:38:03 <POSSE_APAC> YeLong: Exactly. :)
02:39:26 <YeLong> I'm here
02:40:23 <we-r-open> join #teachingopensource-posse
02:40:36 <mchua> we-r-open: you need a / in front of the join
02:40:43 <mchua> we-r-open: "/join #teachingopensource-posse"
02:41:51 <mchua> Harish explaining: "This is how we will be communicating over the next 5 days."
02:43:12 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_APAC
02:43:16 <mchua> This is our wiki.
02:43:20 <mchua> Anyone can edit it.
02:43:23 <mchua> (You can too!)
02:43:33 <mchua> The schedule is also on the wiki page.
02:44:09 <MarTz> whois harish
02:44:15 <mchua> Harish: What I want to do is to spend the next 10 minutes writing down why you are here.
02:44:41 <mchua> Question #1: Why are you here?
02:44:44 <YeLong> To have source
02:44:54 <fukai> hello
02:44:56 <mchua> Question #2: What must you learn by Friday?
02:45:21 <mchua> hey harish-upfront, harish, when do we have some time for the #fedora-zh folks to introduce themselves?
02:45:22 <YeLong> Have source
02:47:12 * mchua just explained that this channel is for conversations and for taking notes, that you can use it to talk with each other while we are presenting, and that this is a good thing.
02:49:09 * mchua takes a moment to answer the questions, too
02:49:44 <mchua> 1. Why am I here? I'm here to teach POSSE and help everybody here learn how to contribute to open source projects, so that you can all go and teach your students.
02:50:25 <mchua> 2. What must I learn by Friday? Well, we've done a POSSE in Raleigh, but we don't know how this will work in APAC, so I need to learn how to make it work in this part of the world as well.
02:50:31 <mchua> (I also apparently need to learn a lot more Mandarin. ;)
02:53:19 <mchua> If you want to send a message privately to one other person, here is how you do it.
02:53:25 <mchua> Let us say we want to send a message directly to harish.
02:53:41 <mchua> We will type "/msg <username> <message>" (no quotes)
02:53:58 <mchua> for instance, if I type "/msg harish-upfront hello"
02:54:39 <mchua> And now you've sent me back a private message. :)
02:57:21 <zhangxinyi> msg harrish this is a test from zhangxinyi
02:57:32 <FANGZENG> got it
02:58:23 <YeLong> ：)
02:59:03 <mchua> I'm starting to get private messages (we also call them PM's for short) from people, so it looks like things are going well. :)
03:00:05 <mchua> The list of names on the right side of your screen are the names of the people in the channel.
03:03:12 <mchua> Harish wants to write down everyone's answers to the two questions.
03:03:17 <mchua> We will check and make sure we answer them all by Friday.
03:03:38 <mchua> (He is writing them up on a text document in the front, we'll put it on the wiki when we're done typing.)
03:06:23 <mchua> You can also type your answers into this channel and we will copy them in.
03:16:40 <MarTz> UniSIM Thesis Collection @ http://sst.unisim.edu.sg:8080/dspace
03:16:49 <jasonchong> come. make some noise here
03:17:49 <mchua> MarTz: nice! I'm going to highlight that in our notes here...
03:17:52 <mchua> #link http://sst.unisim.edu.sg:8080/dspace
03:18:36 <mchua> Harish is now showing the Truth Happens video.
03:21:33 <mchua> We've also asked who is interested in doing a POSSE at their home school, and asked those people to think about how they might adapt what we're teaching to their schools.
03:21:56 <mchua> We'll take some time on Thursday to talk about how this might work, but we won't be doing any actual planning until we know how this week went.
03:23:02 <mchua> #link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXDxRoc5MGo
03:24:50 <mchua> Video over.
03:24:54 <mchua> Harish asking who teaches Java.
03:27:25 <mchua> (silence)
03:27:26 <mchua> C?
03:27:27 <mchua> (silence)
03:27:29 <mchua> C++?
03:27:30 <mchua> (one hand)
03:27:34 <mchua> ....NET?
03:27:36 <mchua> (3 sheepish hands)
03:27:58 <mchua> Imagine you want a painter to make a painter for you.
03:28:05 <mchua> Er, a painting for you.
03:28:08 <mchua> What do you ask to see first?
03:28:11 <mchua> A portfolio.
03:28:28 <mchua> So if I am going to hire a software developer, and the software developer says I did programming in school and I got an A in the class,
03:28:32 <mchua> is that person going to be a good programmer?
03:28:34 <mchua> There is no guarantee.
03:28:38 <mchua> The A does not mean anything.
03:28:51 <mchua> As an employer, when I do interviews, I ask people "can you show me the code you have written?"
03:28:59 <mchua> and they say "it is my schoolwork, I do not have it with me."
03:29:03 <mchua> So how I do I know they can code?
03:29:06 <mchua> How do I check?
03:29:23 <mchua> If they work on open source projects, if they participate, all they have to do is say "here is the URL, you can see my code."
03:30:33 * mchua being cited as an example of someone who was hired by Red Hat because of open source participation outside of Red Hat.
03:30:45 <mchua> Harish explaining that people ask him how they can work for Red Hat all the time.
03:30:50 <mchua> He always says "show me your open source contributions."
03:32:10 * mchua pointing out that this isn't just for code, it's for doc writing, design, translation, etc.
03:32:21 <mchua> anything you can do within an open source community, which is pretty much anything
03:32:32 <mchua> Harish giving the example of folks in Brisbane doing translation
03:35:27 <Jaric> thinking of replacing MatLab, checkout Scilab
03:35:34 <mchua> Mel is talking about a) what is open source b) what is Fedora c) How do people learn in open source?
03:36:15 <hers> mchua~ who will record when you are giving the talk?
03:36:36 <harish> hers: i am doing that when she talks
03:37:10 <mchua> Radical Transparency
03:38:06 <harish> marTz: changing nicks eh?
03:38:07 <ctyler> .en
03:38:16 <harish> .en
03:38:27 <transbot0> andres1 has quit #fedora-es
03:38:41 <transbot0> hers> wangqian_ ~ can not enter the Chinese? What is the operating system you use?
03:38:53 <transbot0> hers> wangqian_ ~ What IRC client?
03:39:27 <ctyler> Note: transbot0 is (trying) to translate #teachingopensource-posse to #teachingopensource-posse-zh and vice versa
03:40:09 <transbot0> hers> wangqian_ ~ what IRC client tool are you using, on which operating system? If you are using Fedora, please install im-chooser and ibus-pinyin, then run im-chooser to setup the input method to use.
03:42:09 <harish> mchua: meritocracy/do-ocracy; ask forgiveness not permission; it's ok for people to be disappointed, but is not ok for them to be surprised
03:43:10 <wangqian_> I use fedora
03:43:14 <transbot0> hers> Translation quality really bad, Mel Chua said that the real hard to understand
03:44:04 <transbot0> mchua> meritocracy
03:44:12 <hers> wangqian_~ please open a terminal, type 'su -c "yum install im-chooser ibus-pinyin"', enter root password if asked
03:44:15 <transbot0> gin0> ?
03:45:13 <hers> wangqian_~ it will install some packages from Fedora repo
03:46:49 <harish> getting started in open source is just to do it. here is what I want to do.
03:46:53 <wangqian_> i ues fedora frist time and i dont know how to enter chinese. Plese give me detai step
03:46:54 <harish> no need for permission
03:47:37 <hers> wangqian_~ ok.. do you know how to open a terminal?
03:47:39 <harish> wangqian_: go to system->preferences->input method
03:47:46 <wangqian_> no
03:48:38 <hers> wangqian_~ follow harish first, from system menu, choose preference -> input method
03:49:03 <harish> wangqian_: is up and running
03:49:13 <wangqian_> OK THANKS
03:50:07 <harish> what is Fedora - we are going to work within the Fedora community for this week. many things to do within the project. need to find areas of interest to work on.
03:50:39 <harish> how do people learn in open source - participation is a partnership. make the code; make it happen.
03:50:56 <harish> It's not what you know, it's what you want to learn.
03:52:42 <harish> we will watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMCnNDI-VqU
03:53:00 <harish> ability to ask questions.
03:53:16 <harish> productively lost - the catch phrase.
03:54:40 <harish> students being productively lost
03:54:48 <harish> keep asking questions
03:54:59 <harish> showing specific software tools
03:55:41 <harish> schedules will be moving as we go through the week.
03:56:22 <harish> editing wiki, blogs, irc
03:56:43 <harish> questions will be answered on irc etc going forward
03:58:29 <tira> how to solve this error msg "Hello, you either have JavaScript turned off or an old version of Adobe's Flash Player. Get the latest Flash player. "
03:59:18 <mchua> ctyler: whoa, did you get transbot up?
03:59:35 <mchua> Video: "can we get more people to choose the stairs by making it fun to do?"
04:00:40 <mchua> #link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMCnNDI-VqU
04:00:56 <mchua> showing a staircase and an escalator - most people take the escalator
04:01:03 <mchua> but when the stairs are turned into a piano, most people take the stairs
04:01:09 <mchua> harish: if you make something fun, people want to try it.
04:03:47 <mchua> Lin Kin Chew: I like the stairs - we need to make open source fun. But one problem is people hear Open Source, they think Linux, and super-technical projects, and they are afraid because they are not technical
04:03:50 <mchua> How can we fix this?
04:03:55 <mchua> Harish: We will be doing that this week!
04:04:50 <mchua> This is not a programming class.
04:04:55 <mchua> It's how to participate on a community.
04:05:06 <mchua> Mel: The stuff we're going to make this week is NOT CODE. Mostly.
04:05:06 <YeLong> making fun using opensource softwares?
04:05:07 <mchua> It can be code.
04:05:13 <mchua> YeLong: Yep. :)
04:05:30 <mchua> It can be code but it does not have to be. It can be music or design or documentation or translating or writing or something.
04:05:40 <mchua> LUNCHBREAK!
04:05:50 <mchua> #endmeeting