15:27:20 #startmeeting 15:27:20 Meeting started Tue Nov 10 15:27:20 2009 UTC. The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 15:27:20 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 15:27:29 #chair spevack quaid gregdek 15:27:29 Current chairs: gregdek mchua quaid spevack 15:27:39 So, the goal for the next hour is to produce a bunch of text that will eventually end up on a POSSE Organization page, right? 15:27:43 Yes. 15:27:52 Based off of https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon/Organization, loosely 15:27:57 and you want to cover 4 things: 15:28:01 (1) Logistics & timeline 15:28:02 Very loosely. 15:28:06 (2) Infrastructure and resources 15:28:11 (3) Branding and PR 15:28:18 (4) Documentation and followup 15:28:21 * mchua nods 15:28:26 I'll take #3 15:28:45 With the intent that we all pick something that we haven't done for a POSSE before so that we're forced to pull things that haven't yet been articulated out of each other's minds. 15:29:20 mchua: why don't you assign us each the one you would like us to work on 15:29:44 Okay, I'll take #1, Greg take #2 since it's tied to textbook, Karsten take #4 15:30:06 (Karsten, a lot of what you'll have to do today is beat me over the head with the "why didn't these notes go up?" stick) 15:30:06 OK! Point us to wiki space you want us to build in? 15:30:28 * mchua loads page... 15:30:33 * mchua hates connection speed 15:31:31 * mchua loading still 15:31:34 AHA 15:31:37 #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/HOWTO_plan_a_POSSE 15:31:47 Let 'er rip. 15:32:12 Use case: Friday, when the RH APAC folks and the professors go "how do we do this again?" we say "read this." 15:34:39 Hm, will we run into wiki contention issues if we all edit at once? 15:34:45 quaid: in terms of what we have so far, we have meetbot logs at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teachingopensource-posse/ 15:34:51 gregdek: not if we're on different sections 15:34:55 OK. :) 15:35:07 * gregdek doesn't know the niceties of wiki conflict resolution. 15:35:10 quaid: and teachingopensource-posse-zh and fedora-websites and the general "can make IRC logs with bot" thing 15:35:28 quaid: we have wiki pages for the events like http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_APAC 15:35:47 quaid: which, even with a neurotic chronicler like me around, don't necessarily get updated in the rush of things 15:36:13 (so more automated ways of doccing stuff == good, and a notion of what's important to keep how up to date == really helpful, because I don't know) 15:36:30 (as you saw on teh phone, I default to verbose because I don't have a good way to triage what's important here) 15:36:31 gregdek: i'm going to write outside of the wiki and then when I want to edit, just edit my one section, and also give a general shout out first :) 15:37:02 quaid: we have blogs, theoretically, which take a really long time to set up, and right now all the posts are manually collected, http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_Blogs 15:37:09 quaid: (probably not super-sustainable) 15:37:47 gregdek: infra-wise, that might be something we just want to hvae ready to roll - a TOS instance of wp-mu that makes all blogs created in that instance automagically feed to TOS Planet 15:38:14 yeah, sounds like a few infra pieces is key 15:38:30 also, having offline stuff you can do ... e.g., a local git repo to pull from incase remote is gone, etc. 15:38:41 we might want to talk with GLS 15:38:47 infra == maintenance. 15:38:54 quaid: and we have stuff like http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_APAC_Planning and logs from those 15:39:15 Not that I'm against it, but the more infra we need to build, the more we need to commit to maintaining -- or finding a community to maintain. 15:39:17 wordpress.com + planet.py 15:39:36 I'm thinking more like, can we get some GLS magic that lets us setup a classroom server, etc. 15:39:45 gregdek: the way I see it, someone has to spend time on infra - and it can either be somebody doing it beforehand or it can be taking more time with the lecturers in the actual POSSE section 15:39:54 Well, that's true, innit? :) 15:39:55 actually using their scratch virt space for remote classes would be interesting 15:40:04 quaid: wordpress.com is what we got people onto today 15:40:10 Scratch virt space == double plus good. 15:40:16 mchua, wordpress.com sufficient? 15:40:26 quaid: (...well, except the 2 guys left from China, we needed to find something that wouldn't get beaten by the Great Firewall) 15:40:47 And our additional infra == easy scripting of blog addition? 15:40:47 gregdek, quaid: sufficient to get them to have a blog, insufficient to get them to have a blog on a Planet 15:41:28 gregdek: yes, for planet TOS at least. 15:41:28 We need strong homework/prep. This is something profs can and should do in advance. 15:42:00 +1, dependency on contact info for professors being available in advance 15:42:15 * mchua lists that as a timeline req 15:42:33 gregdek: yep -- one of the big differences this time around was that the instructors of POSSE weren't able to interact beforehand w/ the students, and having that prep time and pre-POSSE-work is key, IMHO 15:42:43 although not likely today, by this time in 6 to 12 mon we could have non@rht folks able to teach a POSSE that uses GLS virt space 15:42:58 Or any virt space. 15:43:09 how does GLS virt space work? 15:43:32 "providing virt space for posse" == "providing virt space for fedora contributors" == "providing a cloud solution in fedora". 15:43:32 they teach classes from remote 15:43:42 yeah, what gregdek said :) 15:43:53 So they all tie together nicely. 15:43:56 At least in theory. 15:44:06 mchua: it's like the machines they put under your desk, except I reckon you VNC to connect to it from remote (or ssh) 15:45:04 * mchua doens't really have a desk or a machine under it 15:45:13 * spevack pauses to take a call from CMU 15:46:00 mchua: I mean in the RHCE class 15:46:20 quaid: oh, ok 15:46:49 ssh and vnc clients run on all OSes, so one can be on Windows Vista and connect to the class; at least, i reckon that's it 15:47:08 quaid: btw, one useful thing from the docs section: "$these_people should spend $this_amt_of_time on $these_days documenting $this_stuff" 15:47:36 quaid: so far it's been "Mostly Mel should spend all remaining waking hours totally ignoring the Pareto principle" 15:47:39 mchua: how comfortable are you with parsing part of these duties to students? 15:47:46 exactly 15:48:21 quaid: VERY. PLEASE. 15:48:26 In the spirit of "making things easy," I think we should have ChatZilla as our default IRC client that we recommend. Cross-platform, works for anyone with Mozilla, solid, large user base. Anyone disagree? 15:48:38 sounds good 15:48:47 i.e. rather than saying "go find an IRC client," saying "go get ChatZilla by doing THIS and THIS." 15:49:11 gregdek: +1 15:49:22 quaid: trying to think of what students can't easily do... 15:49:28 quaid: plannin docs 15:49:32 quaid: followup docs 15:49:47 quaid: summary of everything the other students said docs (though we could assign those as a rotating thing) 15:49:54 quaid: and we need good examples of student-written docs (hence my motivation for collecting blog posts) 15:50:24 quaid: and non-students should still write docs/reflections so students can see a different way of looking at things 15:50:34 OK, I'm leaving IRC for a bit, and when I come back I'll be using chatzilla. 15:50:40 gregdek has disconnected 15:51:04 (i.e. "this exercise was poorly designed because we didn't have clear instructions" vs "this exercise showed us how to come up with a list of clear instructions after exploring through something that didn't have them") 15:51:49 one philosophical thing that occurs to me this morning 15:51:52 Well, this is ugly. But functional. :) 15:52:19 along the lines of my scout-pioneer-settler-cities analogy ... 15:52:46 each indvidiuald *and* each culture is going to have a journey to take to find a comfortable spot where FLOSS process makes sense. 15:53:01 * spevack nods 15:53:05 if a culture has a long history of e.g. barn raising, individuals and societies will get that analogy faster. 15:53:06 quaid: your first deliverable is to tell me what my deliverable for mon and tues should look like, and how I should keep up with weds (and what I need to farm out) 15:53:19 if there is a e.g. 1000 years of Sparta in their culture, it might be harder. 15:54:30 THIS! IS! POSSE!!!!!!!!!!! 15:54:41 (sorry) 15:55:08 AARRRGGHH I WANT MY CONNECTIVITY BACK 15:55:20 * mchua just dropped connection, swore a lot, finally got back in 15:55:28 gregdek has disconnected 15:55:42 quaid: pioneers analogy +1 insightful - we're collecting these analogies somewhere, right? ;) 15:55:50 * quaid wonderd why gregdek doesn't just start a separate login at the same time. 15:56:35 maybe transbot is just annoying me with all the join/leave messages 16:00:09 Hello POSSE! 16:00:26 How are you today? 16:00:31 hello! 16:00:36 (Pardon the pedantry -- I'm getting screenshots.) 16:00:43 * quaid laughs 16:01:17 A lot of this will actually have direct crossover to textbook. 16:03:08 * mchua waves at gregdek - screenshot readers, welcome to the POSSE channel! 16:07:01 * mchua has this so far: 16:07:57 #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/HOWTO_plan_a_POSSE#Logistics_and_Timeline 16:08:05 (and a really awful network lag) 16:10:30 quaid: I'm going to dump you the URL of everyone's blog here so you can see what students are already writing 16:10:35 http://eunisim.blogspot.com 16:10:35 http://sst.unisim.edu.sg/sites/osom 16:10:35 http://jaricsng.wordpress.com 16:10:35 http://tiraths.wordpress.com 16:10:35 http://xcliu.wordpress.com 16:10:37 http://rchiun.wordpress.com 16:10:40 http://lsystem.wordpress.com 16:11:05 your first deliverable is to tell me what my deliverable for mon and tues should look like, and how I should keep up with weds (and what I need to farm out) 16:11:09 sorry 16:11:13 http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/Pioneer_analogy 16:11:16 quaid: well it is :) 16:11:37 yep, well ... dunno that we can do that, but I'm trying. 16:11:43 quaid: 8 goto 1? 16:11:50 mchua: something like that, yeah 16:12:13 also, big cities needed to have enough population for scouts to be born and NEED to explore new lands, etc. :) 16:12:27 * quaid wanders in to his theories of evolution of society behavior 16:13:30 gregdek, spevack, quaid: check in at 11:20 EST to wrap up? 16:13:34 * spevack wonders if "sure 16:13:49 Yep. 16:14:35 * mchua hasn't done a very good job of managing this sprint's time, but... uh... FAIL FASTER 16:14:50 * spevack struggles with the way to articulate "if you want to call your bootcamp a POSSE, here is what you should do" 16:14:51 * mchua will ask for feedback on that too 16:14:58 mchua: I can go until noon, btw 16:15:03 spevack: that... sounds fine to me 16:15:40 #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/Pioneer_analogy 16:15:43 for meetbot goodness 16:17:49 I think that *we* need to all make the POSSE pledge, that way we can say "if you want to call your bootcamp a POSSE, at least one of the organizers/instructors needs to have made the POSSE pledge" 16:18:11 I want a way to say "if you're not one of us Red Hatters who came up with POSSe, or a POSSE graduate yourself, you can't run a POSSE" 16:18:16 *and call it POSSE* 16:18:22 but ANYONE can take our content and do whatever they want with it 16:18:26 right 16:18:31 free the content while protecting our brand 16:18:38 we actually dn'ot have a canonical way to sign the posse pledge 16:18:46 and see who's signed 16:18:50 INFRA: ^^ 16:20:26 (side note: I am currently being painfully reminded to be sensitive to people with slow/intermittent connectivity and operating in a language they're not super-comfortable with; my productivity is taking massive hits due to both this week) 16:21:13 ah, but we SHOULD be putting people's names on that page who have successfully made it through POSSEs, and even ACL the page if you like so that we can watch changes. That is our Graduate List. I think it's the one place where we are pretty formal, and exacting. You only get on that page if you "graduate" from POSSE, or through special exemption as one of the bootstrappers :) 16:22:38 spevack: if that's the way you sign the pledge, then let's do it 16:23:57 was there no separate mailing list for the original POSSE? 16:24:01 http://teachingopensource.org/mailman/listinfo 16:24:11 spevack: gregdek: quaid: start dumping stuff to wiki and come back to wrap up 16:24:18 spevack: there was, it's private 16:24:33 * gregdek is here. 16:24:38 spevack: pluses and minuses of doing that, but having done both now I think (1) each POSSE needs its own mailing list and (2) that list should be public 16:24:41 * mchua is here too 16:25:21 http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/HOWTO_plan_a_POSSE#Documentation_and_followup 16:25:48 mchua: agreed 16:25:54 I want to wrap up by going around the room and doing 3 things: (1) here's what I did (2) here's what needs to happen next / will happen next 16:25:57 * quaid notes list and pages that are unique to a POSSE need some kind of data identifier, perhaps location too 16:26:10 er, and then (3) how could this sprint time have been used better 16:26:25 [[POSSE APAC - Nov 2009]] for example, posse-apac-nov-2009@lists.tos.org 16:26:26 I thought this was useful, actually. 16:26:40 let's go around the room 16:26:41 Documented the holes in a way that makes it clear what we need to do to fill them. 16:26:44 * mchua passes gregdek the microphone 16:26:47 Ahem. 16:26:50 Is this thing on? 16:26:55 LADY OF SPAIN I ADORE YOU... 16:27:00 *feedback SQUEEEEEAL* 16:27:06 Heh. 16:27:08 OK: 16:27:21 I didn't get much further than "exercises". 16:27:41 Which was arguably only "infrastructure" in the sense of "what do students need to have on their own systems prior to arrival." 16:27:45 But still useful. 16:27:56 my stuff isn't done, but I'm starting to dumb stuff into the wiki 16:27:58 Re: *actual* infrastructure, I have this question: 16:28:16 mchua, what systems are your students using to do "work" on? 16:28:30 gregdek: for this POSSE, a computer lab that's been set up with F11 16:28:37 ...and all ports except for 80 blocked 16:28:43 So the students all are sitting down at machines? 16:28:46 (until today, when we finally gained the ability to ssh.) 16:28:54 gregdek: yes. but we can require laptops if that's a big deal. 16:29:07 My concern is that the infrastructure will be different for each POSSE, and will be strongly dependent upon what's available. 16:29:26 gregdek: how much of tihs can be resolved by a POSSE remix and requiring people to either virtualize or install it? 16:29:28 And will also be dependent upon the project itself. 16:29:35 A great deal, perhaps. 16:30:01 Hrm. 16:30:09 A lot of thinking to do here. 16:30:19 so I see what you've already done 16:30:22 #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/HOWTO_plan_a_POSSE#Infrastructure_and_resources 16:30:25 Seems like the best approach... 16:30:25 gregdek: what's next? 16:30:48 ...might be to put down requirements but not mandates. 16:30:57 * gregdek hrms. 16:31:05 What can we assume? 16:31:13 Anything we require. 16:31:22 I like the virt idea, but virtualizing desktops doesn't always work so well. 16:31:41 Especially if your bandwidth is as bad as you say. 16:31:45 So: 16:31:51 In order of our preference: 16:31:52 We required F11 for this POSSE, that was fine, they set up the computerlab before hand. 16:32:07 1. Desktops or laptops running the POSSE remix. 16:32:16 2. Virtualized instances of same. 16:32:39 3. Desktops or laptops running Fedora latest. 16:32:46 4. Virtualized instances of same. 16:33:02 * mchua notes this implies it's someone's responsibility to maintain the POSSE remix; can do this within Fedora edu SIG 16:33:03 5. Ports 80, 6667, and 443 open? 16:33:10 Yeeeah. That would be nice. 16:33:18 Any others absolutely required? 16:33:22 maintaining POSSE remix == a kickstart file we test every six months? 16:33:23 Oh, 22 for ssh? 16:33:24 We neglected to specify those ports this time and it bit us big time. (22, too) 16:33:30 OK. 16:33:33 * gregdek captures. 16:33:35 quaid: yes 16:33:50 Any competent lab rat should be able to provide us with such. 16:33:50 gregdek: next steps, and then pass the microphone to someone else 16:33:52 Ho HO! 16:33:58 Hello, young Jedi! 16:33:58 sdziallas: you sir have FANTASTIC timing 16:34:02 how far do we want to go with being self-sufficient if the facilities bomb? 16:34:15 quaid: I'd like to say "not far at all" 16:34:18 quaid: Not too far. 16:34:22 mchua: hiya! 16:34:23 This is pretty basic stuff. 16:34:32 quaid: because if the facilities bomb, we won't be able to reach the outside world of open source communityness that, y'know, they are supposed to learn 16:34:44 sdziallas: I'm going to send you the log link and you'll read the end and realize why we laughed when you came in :) 16:34:49 OK, that's it for me so far. I'm sure we'll iterate over this again. 16:34:50 mchua: you can haz help! what's up? :) 16:34:53 what I mean by that is, we could have an instructor laptop that can i) have a world of stuff locally, ii) proxy for lots of other stuff to tunnel over port 80, etc. 16:34:56 mchua: ah, okay... 16:35:10 * spevack has learned from the past hour that we have a lot more work to do on what the POSSE Pledge IS and MEANS 16:35:21 spevack has the mic 16:35:33 no, it's ok 16:35:39 No, really. :) 16:35:40 i'm not hijacking the conversation 16:35:48 Too late now, buddy. 16:35:52 Well, a few thoughts: 16:36:01 spevack: no, we just dropped the conversation on your lap :) 16:36:16 I want it to be kind of a chain -- I'd like for the leaders of every future POSSE to be folks who have already made the POSSE pledge 16:36:26 I don't expect that everyone who attends a p 16:36:26 +1 16:36:30 POSSE will make the pledge. 16:36:37 Asking people to make it *before* the POSSE is wrong 16:36:39 you ask it at the end 16:36:55 and you only ask people to do so if they are serious about staying involved 16:36:59 sdziallas: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teachingopensource-posse/2009-11-10/teachingopensource-posse.2009-11-10-15.27.log.txt start at 16:29:07 16:37:07 spevack: +1 that's what we're going to d othis week 16:37:13 there has to be a way for people to know that it's ok to say "this was great, but no thanks" and not feel like bad people 16:37:48 But assuming proper "QA" of how the POSSE Pledge is made, then we should be able to have a list of names on that page of people who can be POSSE spokesmodels 16:38:06 and who will provide the core group of people that continue to refine POSSE's infrastructure and also spread posse around the world 16:38:09 blah blah 16:38:12 spevack: similarly, do we need a way to say "I... don't think you should sign the pledge just yet"? 16:38:38 mchua: yeah. 16:38:46 * sdziallas reads backlog, but has already an idea and smiles :) 16:39:07 gregdek, spevack, quaid: go ahead and #action all the to-dos we know about, no matter how vague they are 16:39:08 I worry whether or not I'm making this too big of a deal -- but in my mind, it's a critical step especially if we are trying to grow somewhat organically, while maintaining quality at the core 16:39:19 * mchua looks at clock and goes "mrgh, sorry guys, we're kinda overtime" 16:39:24 We don't ask people to make a "Fedora Pledge" for instance 16:39:28 Yep. 16:39:32 * mchua ok with sticking around, but wants to give people who want to jet a chance to jet. 16:39:35 gregdek: yep to what? 16:39:51 Yep to "we don't ask people to make a Fedora pledge". 16:40:01 People come to Fedora because we provide value to them. 16:40:06 spevack: I'm making at least as big a deal about it so I don't think it's far off. 16:40:19 I think we need to consider carefully what we're asking. 16:40:30 gregdek: part of the value of a POSSE network, I think, is keeping that network a high-value one - composed of people who want to be there 16:40:36 rather than people who want their name on a list 16:40:47 * mchua thinks back to what happened after Monday lunch 16:40:47 That network will become clear through interaction. 16:41:03 gregdek: so you argue that the POSSE pledge idea is a red herring? 16:41:04 gregdek: but it's not clear to new people looking at the list of names and wondering whether they, too, should join. 16:41:12 spevack: I think so, yes. 16:41:39 Now, that doesn't mean it's not useful. 16:41:42 so how do we protect the POSSE name, and the quality of a POSSE? 16:41:48 how do we protect its brand? 16:41:48 ok, timing wise ... 16:41:58 can I grab the mic and then apparate? 16:42:02 yeah, we should pass the mic to quaid... 16:42:03 quaid: go ahead 16:42:05 thx 16:42:07 I'm ex 16:42:09 ez 16:42:16 http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/HOWTO_plan_a_POSSE#Documentation_and_followup 16:42:20 Can I answer Max's Q first? 16:42:20 #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/HOWTO_plan_a_POSSE#Documentation_and_followup 16:42:24 sorry :) 16:42:25 ok gregdek 16:42:30 I think it's important. 16:42:49 In Fedora's early days, we worried *way too much* about protecting Fedora's brand. 16:42:56 YeLong has disconnected 16:42:57 And it cost us gigantically in energy. 16:43:21 Anytime we asked Gafton to release builder code, his answer was "I don't want to make Fedora look bad." 16:43:30 And it *seemed* like a reasonable answer, but it wasn't. 16:43:44 If we have profs who want to participate, it's because they will believe in the idea. 16:43:57 But that doesn't necessarily mean that their ideas will be identical to ours. 16:44:04 /eof 16:44:36 the padawan actually waves at gregdek, not noticing that he was meant earlier. ;) 16:44:43 LOL 16:44:56 * spevack muses on greg's comments -- ok quaid go ahead 16:45:02 mchua: yes, I think I should be able to... jump in there ;) 16:45:22 First I took notes of all that Mel said on IRC; what I haven't turned in to anything is stuffed at the bottom in a stand-alone section to be used up and eliminated. 16:45:27 Some of this stuff crosses over with infrastructure, so we can migrate or cross-reference. 16:45:30 Sections on in-advance and during a POSSE, for instructor and student; seemed to be the way to organize it. 16:45:33 Then I moved content in to those areas, organized and made it make sense. 16:45:37 Began to organize where to put content. 16:46:04 One thing that is confusing ... I have stuff here that Mel needs to put in [[POSSE APAC - Nov 2009]], so I tried to use it as examples. 16:46:31 some of that needs to be moved to that page, but I have it here for the moment so it's not lost and can be used as examples. 16:46:58 #action - mchua needs to create the date specific page and move specific-to-this-POSSE content to that page. 16:47:20 #action [[POSSEE APAC]] is a generic page, by name, and can have generic content that points out to individual APAC events 16:47:38 #action finish converting raw notes in to something useful in doc section 16:48:03 #action [[Category:POSSE]] needed here 16:48:20 quaid: as The Person who is repsonsible for documenting POSSE APAC, what do I need to do this week? 16:48:38 * mchua groans at typos, but ignore whem... network lag makes it more aggravating to correct 16:49:41 mchua: lessons learned for future posse 16:49:53 cover gaps that students leave 16:49:56 oh, I suppose that's "during: instructor documenting" and making sure "during: student documenting happenes" 16:50:02 make sure we know what we need to write down 16:50:17 right and add to those sections, they are incomplete 16:50:27 #action mchua make http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/HOWTO_plan_a_POSSE#During:_Instructor_documenting 16:50:39 stub out both this page and the [[POSSE APAC - Nov 2009]] (or whatever) page 16:50:52 anything more from me? 16:51:31 Not here. 16:51:38 quaid: if you're done, I'm happy :) 16:51:40 sounds good to me. 16:51:41 * quaid jets, see you in a few 16:51:54 gregdek: where do you want you, me, and quaid at 1:15? 16:52:04 Here and on gobby. 16:52:07 * mchua apologizes for running late - I think this is by *far* the most over-time I've ever gone on a meeting. 16:52:14 * mchua will, uh, probably be there too 16:52:19 No worries, mchua. 16:52:20 mchua: the sprint end times are pretty flexible :) 16:52:35 catch you all in about an hour 16:52:37 How can I suck less at running sprints in the future ;) 16:52:41 mchua: happy to see you, but would also be happy if you decided to GET SOME SLEEP. 16:52:47 mchua: this was good, actually. 16:52:53 gregdek: +1 16:52:54 Give people simple goals and let them run. 16:52:54 see, I think the three of you have some magical manager-fu that I currently lack 16:52:59 Nope. 16:53:01 mchua: this sprint was fine 16:53:08 mchua: you gave us tasks, and they were clear, and we did stuff 16:53:30 gregdek: I did! I napped before the sprint, for 4 whole hours. 16:53:51 mchua: this was a good morning. Don't worry. We got actual work done, and had some good strategic thinking 16:54:15 Ok. Not worrying, just... trying to learn faster, if possible 16:54:29 but I might be maxing out on that right now for these particular situations 16:54:50 * mchua in kind of "holy shit, everything is confusing, I'm going to spew -v" mode this week 16:55:03 (which is fun, but also tough to wrestle with, but that's also what makes it fun.) 16:55:09 Anyway, you guys go get some lunch 16:55:35 * gregdek wanders afk 16:56:59 #endmeeting