00:25:41 #startmeeting 00:25:41 Meeting started Thu Nov 12 00:25:41 2009 UTC. The chair is tira. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 00:25:41 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 00:26:15 Great - thanks for starting the meeting, tira! 00:26:27 The command to end the meeting (when we break for lunch) is #endmeeting. 00:26:45 You can also make other people the chair, by typing #chair 00:27:00 for instance, "#chair mchua" would make me the chair (just the part inside the quotes, no quotes). 00:27:27 早上好! 00:28:13 您好吗? 00:28:14 what is today's agenda? 00:28:33 我们不知道. (we don't know.) 00:28:34 (yet.) 00:28:39 that's the first thing we need to figure out. 00:28:47 Can mchua lead brainstorming? 00:29:03 There are some things we need to do - go over the Planet stuff and get everyone's blog on Planet 00:29:07 (for Fedora) 00:29:35 今天是第四天了! 00:29:37 and then for TOS - introduce everybody to the Teaching Open Source community, which we've seen a little of yesterday (the examples of what other schools are doing) 00:29:44 mchua-logging has disconnected 00:29:52 (Today is the 4th day?) 00:30:06 It's been a while since I had to read and write Chinese :) 00:30:12 tira: I can indeed lead brainstorming. 00:30:14 Is everybody here? 00:30:21 Mel, can you go over the zodbot stuff quickly again this morning? 00:30:33 harish has disconnected 00:30:36 mchua: For fedora wiki's, is it a rule that a person's wiki cannot be edited by the owner? 00:30:59 tira: No, that was just for the exercise, to get you used to talking on IRC. 00:31:13 roger_ch has joined: #teachingopensource-posse-zh 00:31:32 Not everybody is here today. The NYP people are not here yet. 00:31:50 kinchew: Yep. That's why it's great to have logs - that way when they arrive, they can quickly catch up. 00:32:08 But we're waiting for them to come before we plan the full agenda for the day. 00:32:21 kinchew: While we're waiting, do you want to show us what you found while reading Planets last night? 00:32:38 (also, everybody else: take some time now and read a Planet and find something interesting to share with the class.) 00:32:46 mchua: can we revise git a little? 00:33:21 roger_ch> good morning. Another day of funs ........ 00:33:37 OK. I can start off with some of the interesting blogs I read last night. 00:33:40 tira: Yes - when we start brainstorming for the schedule, bring that up. 00:33:55 kinchew: Awesome. You can paste the links here, too. 00:33:59 The first blog is the one by Paul Mellors. 00:34:18 (I'll put some Planet links here, too) 00:34:20 #link http://planet.fedoraproject.org/ 00:35:54 I like this blog by Paul Mellors because he put up a simple JavaScript code on how to promote Fedora 12. 00:36:44 Paul Mellors' message: Fedora 12 gets released very soon, so why not show your support by adding this funky countdown to your website. You can find his blog on the Planet Fedora's website given by Mel above. 00:37:04 Kaio_monolith has disconnected 00:37:51 kinchew: Oh, was it this post? 00:37:52 #link http://www.paulmellors.net/2009/11/fedora-12 00:38:36 Another interesting blog that I read was the blog by Dave Jones. He spotted a possible GPL violation by Sharp. He bought an LCD television that has some open source software. Go to Planet Fedora and find Dave Jones. I found it interesting because many people don't really care about GPL violations. 00:39:15 Hi Mel, yes, that is the blog by Paul Mellors. 00:39:57 Has anybody gone to http://gpl-violations.org to read up about some interesting GPL violation cases? 00:40:10 I will now. :) 00:40:30 That's a great link to post. I hadn't seen it before, actually. 00:40:31 #link http://gpl-violations.org/ 00:40:46 And the original post by Dave Jones is here: 00:40:47 #link http://www.codemonkey.org.uk/2009/11/09/sharp-tv-violating-gpl/ 00:41:30 mchua: can we just have a small 10 minute discussion on the other versioning system interchange? 00:41:37 Karstan Wade has also written something on Open Marketing which I found it very interesting. 00:42:17 Yet another interesting blog I found was something on Open Source Photography! 00:42:54 kinchew: Can you post links to their blog posts here, too? 00:43:23 About GPL violations are being done by many companies, there were two co's who were taken to court in USA and germany. 00:43:50 tira: When we brainstorm our schedule today (after we're done sharing Planet posts here) that should definitely go on the list (versioning systems). 00:44:10 kinchew : link for OS photography please. 00:44:29 mchua_ has joined: #teachingopensource-posse-zh 00:44:51 roger_ch, you should share some of the things you've seen on the blog Planets too ;) 00:45:21 YeLong, you too! And I don't see xinyi here yet. 00:45:25 mchua : link for downloading zodbot for local use please. 00:45:27 hey, jaricsng, pohyee-cheong! 00:45:39 mchua: http://www.nycresistor.com/2009/11/11/mit-opencourseware-introduction-to-algorithms/ Highlites the advantages of 'open' as in education - and how you can get any group to learn anywheres with it. 00:45:40 hey, good morning 00:45:46 good morning 00:45:58 Good Morning Singapore! 00:46:11 tira: Actually, maybe we should take some time to quickly review all the things we did yesterday, so we can get your questions on versioning and zodbot answered then. 00:46:15 Open Source Photography: http://osp.wikidot.com/; http://www.flickr.com/groups/83823859@N00/ 00:46:18 good day from (yesterday!) in Santa Cruz, California 00:46:23 kevix: lovely! 00:46:32 #link http://www.nycresistor.com/2009/11/11/mit-opencourseware-introduction-to-algorithms/ 00:46:38 Xinyi, come on! 00:46:48 Mel, yes, I think a quick recap of what we did yesterday will be a very good idea! 00:46:49 quaid: kinchew was just talking about your blog post on Open Marketing from yesterday. 00:46:49 msn is safer? 00:47:01 xinyi: yay! good morning :) 00:47:04 I think we might have everybody on now 00:47:22 kinchew: thanks for the links - I'm going to #link them so they show up in the meeting minutes, too. 00:47:23 #link http://osp.wikidot.com/; 00:47:27 #link http://www.flickr.com/groups/83823859@N00/ 00:47:34 harish: ...huh? 00:47:41 if there is a comparison on which is safer on Yahoo Messenger or MSN, send it to me 00:48:39 tira: 'zodbot' is a hosted instance of the popular Python-based 'supybot', with a custom Fedora Infrastructure plugin 00:49:02 tira: can you #chair me? 00:49:14 jaricsng: 'safe' as in ? 00:49:58 tira: 00:50:07 tira: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/SOP/zodbot 00:50:09 #chair tira 00:50:09 Current chairs: tira 00:50:09 and 00:50:10 security 00:50:17 tira: you want #chair mchua_ ;) 00:50:17 Kaio_monolith has disconnected 00:50:19 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/SOP/zodbot 00:50:22 MSN is more secure 00:50:31 Kaio_dell has disconnected 00:51:00 mchua, that was a comment from Jaric who was told by the network admins at NYP that they only allow access to msn and not yahoo because "msn is safer". 00:51:12 tira: #chair mchua) 00:51:15 #chair mchua 00:51:15 Current chairs: mchua tira 00:51:18 er, #chair mchua_ 00:51:26 #link http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=supybot-fedora.git;a=summary, 00:51:46 Another interesting blog is "StudentProject Keyword in Fedora Bugzilla" in Planet Fedora. 00:51:48 harish has joined: #teachingopensource-posse-zh 00:51:49 #chair mchua_ 00:51:49 Current chairs: mchua mchua_ tira 00:52:08 tira: perfect, thank you! 00:52:09 jaricsng: they use non-encrypted communication, public channels, on a 3-rd party server where your data is stored, no? 00:52:32 how does translation work? 00:52:33 mchua : how do we relinquish the chair? 00:52:46 harish> is it cool? 00:52:47 Current chairs: mchua mchua_ tira # sounds like xmas song lyrics :P 00:52:48 yep 00:52:56 morning 00:53:11 what is cool? 00:53:14 so i am puzzled when yahoo messenger is not allowed 00:53:43 Kaio_dell: yes Christmas is round the corner. :) 00:54:08 jaricsng: who ever NYP is/are, they are non security professional or just M$-biased :) 00:54:36 mchua, for those who may be interested, how was the language translation done between zh and en? 00:54:36 Ok, everyone - I am going to post some links to the Planets that raeLLL posted last night in this channel, and then we can talk about Planets for a little longer 00:54:46 And then we'll move into figuring out our schedule for the day. 00:54:53 harish: let's take that after Planets. 00:54:57 #link http://planet.fedora-zh.org/ 00:55:03 #link http://planet.szlug.org/ 00:55:06 #link http://planet.gentoo-cn.org/ 00:55:11 #link http://planet.kernel.org/ 00:55:15 #link http://planet.fedoraproject.org 00:55:22 #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/Planet 00:55:26 #link http://planet.gnome.org/ 00:55:30 #link http://planetkde.org/ 00:55:34 #link http://planet.lxde.org/ 00:55:37 #link http://planet.gentoo.org/ 00:55:41 #link http://www.planetplanet.org/ 00:55:50 Okay. That's a lot of links. 00:56:33 quaid : there is no link to download zodbot. Even a google search does not provide a link to download. 00:56:54 mchua, ok 00:57:05 #info We're starting with having everybody pick a Planet to read, and sharing interesting links they're finding with the rest of the class. 00:57:39 I'm reading http://planet.fedoraproject.org, and here's one thing I found: 00:57:42 #link http://blog.chris.tylers.info/index.php?/archives/217-StudentProject-keyword-in-Fedora-Bugzilla.html 00:58:08 Yesterday when we were talking about Bugzilla, Harish talked about the "student-project" keyword, which is a way to flag bugs in bugzilla that would be good for student projects. 00:58:27 So Chris wrote a blog post about that yesterday. (He's actually listening to the channel right now - thanks, ctyler!) 00:58:50 tira, http://sourceforge.net/projects/supybot/ 00:58:57 tira, is what zodbot is 00:59:08 Another one I found was a post by Harish (hi, harish) about having CS students keep portfolios. 00:59:09 #link http://harishpillay.livejournal.com/166707.html 00:59:20 For those who are interested in Open Source Car, here is the link: http://www.theoscarproject.org/. There is an actual Open Source Car - it is not a joke! 00:59:36 #link http://www.theoscarproject.org 00:59:54 I was reading this last night. Find it interesting cos it does open source development for humanitarian causes 00:59:58 kinchew: I'm going to be buying my first car next week, so that's awesome :) 01:00:16 pohyee-cheong, yes hfoss is an effort in that direction as well 01:00:37 pohyee-cheong: what was it you were reading last night? 01:00:37 #link http://blog.hfoss.org/ 01:00:41 ahh! 01:00:45 thanks, pohyee-cheong. 01:01:19 there is open source hardware - yes a misnomer, but check out www.arduino.cc 01:01:26 harish: #link plz 01:01:35 tira: it's a supybot package + Fedora plugins; it's installed on the server and configured as 'zodbot' 01:01:46 #link http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/epel/5/i386/repoview/supybot.html 01:01:55 #link http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/epel/5/i386/repoview/supybot-fedora.html 01:02:03 #link http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/epel/5/i386/repoview/supybot-koji.html 01:02:07 pohyee-cheong: Yes, HFOSS is a great project - it's another group that people here might want to get their schools involved with. 01:02:12 #link http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/epel/5/i386/repoview/supybot-meetbot.html 01:02:16 roger_ch> 01:02:18 * quaid is done, last link! 01:02:27 It looks like we can get almost anything open source. How about open source boyfriend or girlfriend? Just a joke! 01:02:43 pohyee-cheong: One of the people that harish and quaid and I work with at Red Hat - Greg DeKoenigsberg - is on... some sort of advisory board or something for it, and knows a lot more about what is going on there. 01:03:00 pohyee-cheong, and see if they can also participate in www.sahana.org as well 01:03:19 mchua, harish noted 01:03:25 harish: #link! #link! 01:03:25 open telephony, electric car conversion, etc. http://www.rowetel.com/ 01:03:49 YeLong, yipch, xinyi, roger_ch - have you found anything interesting? 01:04:06 I can't read the Chinese planets fast enough, so I'd love to hear what you are finding there. 01:04:10 overheard a suggestion to use skype in the class. i would *avoid* it because the protocol is not published and we have no idea how safe they are. 01:04:26 talk.fedoraproject.org! 01:04:47 quaid, indeed. talk.fedoraproject.org 01:04:54 #link http://talk.fedoraproject.org 01:05:02 mchua, :-) 01:05:12 Another post I enjoyed from Planet Fedora last night was one by tatica - she regularly blogs in both Spanish and English, and I love reading her posts about being an Ambassador (she's also an excellent artist). 01:05:14 #link http://tatica.org/2009/11/11/056365-cuando-la-alegria-se-refleja-en-tu-rostro-when-joy-is-reflected-in-your-face/ 01:05:14 harish: skype is supposed to open-source the client, not the server though :) 01:05:42 * ianweller waves to all the POSSE people :) 01:05:43 kevix, that is only the front-end. that is not a big deal frankly. what we need is to understand the protocol they use. 01:05:54 * harish hi ianweller 01:05:57 hey, ianweller. Any cool blog posts you've read lately from Planet something-or-other that you want to call out? 01:06:00 #link http://www.mjmwired.net/resources/mjm-fedora-f11.html - Good site for people who want to install other software on Fedora 11. 01:06:04 harish: yes, I know, i pointed that out. 01:06:24 quaid's recent post about superstars lowering general morale is pretty neat 01:06:56 kinchew, tsk, tsk, tsk wrt open source bf and gf :-) 01:07:06 For those of you who are interested in learning about packaging - tira, I know you wanted to look at that - Mairin Duffy (mizmo) has a request to package a font, and fonts are a great first thing to package. 01:07:08 dave jones's post on google wave made me lol :P 01:07:08 #link http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/11/10/unpackaged-font-of-the-week-comic-serif-pro/ 01:07:16 ianweller: can haz #link plz? 01:07:21 oh sure :P 01:07:31 #link http://iquaid.org/2009/11/11/calling-out-superrockstars-considered-harmful/ 01:07:39 #link http://www.codemonkey.org.uk/2009/11/11/google-wave-observations/ 01:07:50 Oh - for those of you who are interested in packaging, ianweller was helping us teach packaging at the first POSSE back in July. So he's a good person to ask about that, too. 01:08:02 * mchua_ looks around the classroom and sees everyone at their computers typing in IRC, is greatly amused :) 01:08:36 mchua_> roger_ch: What did you find? 01:09:15 For those of you who are interested in creating LiveUSB using Fedora, here is the link: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraLiveCD/USBHowTo 01:09:27 mchua_> roger_ch: What Planet are you looking at? 01:09:40 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraLiveCD/USBHowTo 01:10:01 As kinchew pointed out, that will let you make a thumbdrive that you can boot Fedora from. 01:10:39 * mchua_ waits for the Chinese-language Planet links 01:10:41 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/PreUpgrade 01:10:43 #link Video Big Buck Bunny [OpenSource projet Blender] http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5qlpm_big-buck-bunny-opensource-projet-bl_creation 01:10:43 * mchua_ goes to try reading some of them 01:11:03 I will be delivering some actual elearning stuff on Human Physiology using a Fedora-based LiveUSB. I will be trying it out on 55 students. I don't know how they will like it. But it is an experiment. Has anybody done this sort of learning before? 01:11:05 the preupgrade is a way to move to newer releases of fedora as it comes up. 01:11:30 kinchew, and the materials are on the usb? in html? 01:11:53 Yes, the contents are in HTML. 01:11:56 YeLong: Oh, awesome! I haven't seen that movie yet, but thanks for reminding me that I should. :) 01:12:26 harish: the url http://www.sahana.org/ u gave is about south east asian arts in north america. 01:12:35 think the correct url is : http://www.cs.trincoll.edu/hfoss/wiki/Project/SahanaVM 01:12:43 kinchew: I haven't done it at the college level yet, but I got to visit a school that was using Sugar on a Stick, and that seemed to be going well. 01:12:57 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick 01:13:20 I am also trying out the delivery of eLearning using a Virtual Machine installed on a Flash Drive. But what I have found out is that it is slower than the LiveUSB. Anybody out there has some experiience delivering eLearning using a Flash Drive based VM? 01:13:26 kinchew: Luke Macken is the author of the liveusb code - his IRC nick is lmacken and he's usually online in #fedora-admin if you have any questions. 01:13:55 Thanks Mel. I think I can check up with Luke Macken. 01:13:55 pohyee-cheong, yikes. it should have been #link http://www.sahana.lk 01:14:15 harish: ok. thanks 01:14:32 #link how about APEC & Open Source here? http://hrd.apec.org/index.php/Symposium_on_Open_Source_and_Open_Course_for_E-Learning 01:15:10 pohyee-cheong, sahana was an amazing project done in a 2 weeks while the search and rescue was happening following the Indian Ocean tsunami of 2004/2005. 01:15:29 i c 01:15:37 kinchew: You can also send him a message on IRC by doing "/msg lmacken " 01:15:38 pohyee-cheong, and now sahana is being used in a lot of other disaster mitigation efforts. 01:16:02 xinyi: what have you been reading? 01:16:06 every now and then i will pop back here to check for java open source project 01:16:13 #link http://java-source.net/ 01:16:35 mchua_> roger_ch: What Planet are you looking at? 01:17:08 jaricsng: nice! Eclipse is another Java project you might be interested in - it's an open source IDE written in Java. 01:17:27 jaricsng: I hear it's a great IDE for Java development, though I haven't used it for Java (I mostly write my code in Python) 01:17:32 yes, i uses eclipse for my development 01:17:47 though Eclipse is a great IDE for development in other languages as well. 01:17:58 #link http://eclipse.org 01:18:46 i must share a story with you about my experience during the 2004 tsunami. i was a reservist with the singapore civil defence force and I was activated and was deployed in banda aceh for two weeks immediately following the tsunami. our main challenge was in tracking stuff and it was very disappointing to see how incompatible the various "applications" being used by the various foreign rescue teams there. we wasted too much time try 01:18:47 ing to figure out how to communicate! 01:20:18 Can anybody lists the benefits of using python, ruby, php or java (interpreted) in teaching environment? 01:20:54 tira, from personal experience python is a good starting language. 01:20:58 xinyi has joined: #teachingopensource-posse-zh 01:21:12 Hello, this is a test of the Chinese channel. 01:22:05 tira, check #link http://www.itsc.org.sg/codeXtremeApps.html 01:22:17 tira, we used python for this year's contest 01:22:28 hi, harish, i understand what you meant 01:22:46 that's why sometimes we cannot use standard 01:22:55 mchua_> xinyi, now you can write English:) 01:23:20 ...weird, transbot0 translates the word "Chinese-language" to "English-language" 01:23:33 we need standard, in the mean time when it is not there yet, we need some form of agile integration 01:23:44 (I definitely wrote "中文" in the Chinese channel.) 01:23:47 between system 01:25:24 mchua: Are there any other language channels except Zh and En? 01:26:42 YeLong: There are lots of IRC channels where people talk in different languages. Most of them do not have the translation bot (transbot0) set up in them - we set that up for POSSE this week, but I can point people towards how we did it. 01:26:49 ctyler actually was the one who set up translation. 01:27:25 Ok - I'd like to stop for a moment and talk about what we've been doing here, and about the things we've learned about Planets. 01:27:54 For those of you who are around but not physically in the room (hi, quaid and ianweller, spevack, ricky, hers, raeLLL, etc.) feel free to chime in with your "what I use Planets for and why they are awesome" notes. 01:27:59 #topic Why Planets are awesome 01:28:33 planets are awesome because i don't have to use a feed reader to see what everyone in fedora thinks, and i don't have to keep track of all the RSS feeds :) 01:28:40 xinyi> Well, I can input Chinese characters in 01:28:47 provides sort of a "state" of a community, if you will 01:29:10 tira, info overload! 01:30:35 welcome, hylock! do you want to introduce yourself to the channel? 01:30:39 hylock has disconnected 01:30:45 whoops :) 01:31:02 * mchua_ just compared Planets to going out to dinner with people and hearing them talk about what they're doing, what their families are up to 01:31:09 it gives you an idea of what's going on, and what people are doing. 01:31:10 YeLong : Any information on the typing tutor to learn the mandarin keyboard. 01:31:50 the best way i have found to manage info overload is to pick one or two topics and go into it a fair amount. if you don't do that, then every bit of info would seem important and you have no idea when to start pursuing into the details. 01:32:11 the site where they are making standard for comm between air, land and air that can be helpful in disaster management 01:32:15 #link http://www.mip-site.org/ 01:32:23 Yeah - for me, reading a Planet feels like learning a foreign language. 01:32:28 hi, fardad! 01:32:37 Tira: We have done it for you before. You can copy them from us later. 01:32:39 YeLong - are there websites where I can get lists of Chinese equivalents of terms in IT or Open Source, e.g. Open Source Software is 开放源码软件 or 开源软件 in short? 01:32:52 When I started studying Japanese, and then I visited Japan, it was hard to keep up with what everyone around me was saying. 01:33:18 So I decided that I was probably not going to understand most of what people were saying, and that once in a while I would decide to read a sign, or listen to a specific conversation, and just try to follow that. 01:33:19 Kinchew: 开源软件 01:33:24 jaricsng and harish : I thought did dah (morse code) is universal on the sea, air and land? try SOS. 01:33:27 But it was good to see a lot of other things going on around me, so I knew that they were going on. 01:33:51 tira, dit-dit-dit-dah-dah-dah-dit-dit-dit :-) 01:34:00 Ok, let's start talking about the schedule for today. 01:34:05 #topic What are we doing today? 01:34:16 my amateur call sign is 9V1HP btw 01:34:28 #link http://unix-center.org/ 01:34:31 fardad has disconnected 01:34:42 YeLong - thank you! 01:35:22 kinchew: you are welcome. 01:35:46 Transcribing ideas on things to look at today into the channel 01:35:53 harish : that was something interested me in the 60s and early 70s. I actually thaught theory for a class of potential radio amateurs. 01:35:53 quaid, ianweller, et al, feel free to chime in with ideas 01:36:08 #link I hope your guys to see this page http://unix-center.org/ 01:36:28 kinchew is suggesting that we look at projects within Fedora to see what might be interesting to the classes people are teaching 01:36:33 examples: virtual machines, liveusb 01:37:38 kinchew: go #link pclinux site 01:37:48 The contents have to be SCORM compliant. 01:38:00 We can look at packaging if people want to look at packaging - Mo had a font she wanted people to package. 01:38:12 (this is actually Mel hijacking the front projector computer for a bit, btw) 01:38:20 We can finish the Websites exercise from Tuesday. 01:38:27 We can get people's blogs into Planet. 01:38:37 There was a question about zodbot 01:38:43 and one about different language IRC channels 01:38:47 kinchew: Visit k12 education site to boot from a server over the NIC. 01:38:51 and one about transbot 01:39:01 (that's K12LTSP) 01:39:13 Different sorts of version control 01:39:20 Eclipse 01:40:14 How to teach introductory programming concepts to students 01:40:24 quaid, did you want to do documentation (before it gets too late for you)? 01:40:28 Tira: Thank you for the links. I will check them up. 01:41:03 Build environments and makefiles 01:41:08 Sugar 01:41:46 sheet music programs 01:42:00 (software that isn't about programming, in general) 01:42:03 How to make students or other people know easily and quickly the open source is really good for them? 01:42:56 IMHO to show them how easy they could look into the mechanism of the OS. 01:43:13 tools and methodology for collaboration - not just IRC, but we can look at Fedora Talk, at Gobby, etc 01:43:30 software for introductory programming - and materials 01:43:34 in closed source, the most you could figure out is how to get it work, but not how it works 01:43:35 (IDEs for beginners) 01:44:32 with open source, no one hides secret from them 01:44:35 video conferening in remote learning. 01:44:55 Programs that other schools have set up with open source projects, companies, guest speakers, etc 01:45:05 DSP software for teaching (something as an alternative to MatLab) r-project, scilab 01:45:21 embedded linux, realtime linux 01:46:57 An FOSS presentation for presenting to sell OSS to the Institute Management. 01:47:25 Embedded linux, programming on linux in embedded system, hardware driver for linux 01:49:48 Do you know SharePoint, a MS software for AO. Is there any software like SharePoint running on Linux? 01:50:02 sorry, OA is correct 01:50:11 harish: sorry, was distracted with dinner preparations (now in the hands of the kids) 01:51:09 Plone, Joomla!, Drupal are Open Source alternatives to Sharepoint. 01:51:38 thank you, kinchew. 01:52:03 Personally, I like Plone as it is a very established CMS - Content Management System. I have been using it for some time. 01:52:41 mchua_: present! 01:53:31 Studing using OSS code- Is there a demo available where they is a lesson and then OSS code demonstrating the principles? eg the operating system principles. 01:53:38 yes, I can talk about open source documentation, particularly how we do that in Fedora. 01:55:43 quaid: We're ready - start whenever you like. 01:55:45 #topic Documentation 01:55:46 kinchew, drupal is good, and would be useful to look at alfresco as well and do the assessment 01:55:49 #chair quaid 01:55:50 Current chairs: mchua mchua_ quaid tira 01:56:01 btw, drupal is what powers www.whitehouse.gov 01:56:23 Let's try to stay on topic, everyone - after quaid talks with us about Documentation, we'll have a lot of time to answer all our other questions and talk about other things. ;) 01:56:42 If you want another place to talk, the #teachingopensource channel is a fine place :) 01:56:52 YeLong, drupal, alfresco are equivalent to sharepoint 01:56:55 (To do that, type "/join #teachingopensource") 01:56:57 harish: on-topic, plz 01:57:07 mchua, yes 01:57:13 harish: #teachingopensource for backchannel that isn't about Documentation 01:57:51 harish, kinchew: 01:57:55 ok 01:58:10 i am ready to learn more about open source documentation 01:58:12 mchua_: good idea for a back channel, that is on-topic for #tos at any time 01:58:15 * mchua_ is also ready! 01:58:22 quaid, go for it. 01:58:48 ok, a few questions 01:58:59 ＃tos 01:59:01 harish, kinchew: Could you give me some source links on Plone, Drupal, Joomla! for help me to know how to do. Thank you. 01:59:25 tos is teachingopensource.org 01:59:28 YeLong: http://www.plone.org 01:59:31 YeLong: #teachingopensource backchannel ;) 01:59:32 harish: thank you 01:59:35 Tira: Here is our local FOSS community's implementation of Drupal: http://foss-alliance.sg/. 01:59:35 raeLLL: #teachingopensource backchannel 01:59:57 for my writing here, docs == documentation 02:00:20 documentation is both technical material on how to use software, or how to code it (such as comments in source code) 02:00:21 YeLong: #link: http://plone.org http://www.joomla.org http://drupal.org 02:00:41 it is also the content that talks about how to be a community member: 02:00:45 * How to join 02:00:46 * How to use common tools 02:01:02 #join backchannel 02:01:07 * How to conduct in the community -- behavior expectations, community norms 02:01:24 yipch, not #join backchannel but /join 02:01:35 and also the content about meetings, discussions, decisions, and so forth 02:01:37 thanks 02:01:45 yipch, so, an example would be /join #teachingopensource 02:01:45 so the log for this channel is a form of documentation 02:02:07 Yep! zodbot automatically keeps channel logs; we talked a little bit about that yesterday. 02:02:10 the idiom "backchannel" refers to a place to discuss that is not in the main room 02:02:15 * mchua_ looks for the link for this channel's logs... 02:02:35 #link http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teachingopensource-posse/2009-11-12/ 02:02:56 the Fedora Project is helped when the tools and processes for documenting are reusable across the project. 02:03:31 so, when I write in the wiki, I use the same guidelines no matter what I write about: 02:03:40 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Joining_the_Docs_Project 02:03:58 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Git_Quickref 02:04:19 those are both documentation, but have a different purpose and source 02:04:24 Mchua:Have you found Chinese is wrong code in logs? 02:04:26 quaid: is documentation just about instructions for how to use software? 02:04:42 mchua_: no, documentation is also for how to work in the community. 02:05:33 in English 02:05:45 documentation is a thing, a book in hand 02:05:54 or a webpage of information. 02:06:13 it is a result of the work of 'documenting' -- the verb 'to document' 02:06:20 when we think about 'to document' 02:06:29 we realize it is many, many things 02:06:52 when I write a summary about a meeting, that is documenting 02:07:42 I'm talking about this because it is an important part of a project 02:08:08 someone who documents in a project is someone who write facts down so that others in the future do not have to look hard for the answer. 02:08:30 this is why it is an easy *and* important task for every contributor to do. 02:08:46 for example 02:09:04 every technical decision in Fedora Project is discussed on IRC and on mailing lists. 02:09:18 both of those have automatic logging -- the mailing list archives and the meeting log archives from IRC. 02:09:29 * mchua_ reminds the class about the "radical transparency" we discussed on Monday 02:09:29 those archives are the documentation that shows how that technical decision was made. 02:09:32 documenting is hard because you have to take the ability and basic knowledge level into account before writing. 02:09:43 tira: yes, but ... 02:09:49 that is only one of the types of documentation 02:09:52 the HARD kind 02:10:16 what we try to do in Fedora 02:10:24 is have people start documenting the EASY way first 02:10:41 and learn how to do the harder work as their skill and knowledge increases. 02:11:00 of course ... if someone is already an expert writer, they do not need as much training. :) 02:11:13 imagine this: 02:11:30 what is the easy and hard way? 02:11:37 the language used must be simple enough to prevent any misunderstanding. A normal writer assumes that the reader has the same ability as i have, which is usually never true. 02:11:56 jaricsng: easy and hard way ... 02:12:09 what is the mechanism to consolidate and search for documentation from irc 02:12:12 * easy is writing anything down in a wiki that is not there already 02:12:20 ** or helping to organize the wiki in a small way 02:12:30 for example, today with this page: 02:12:32 quaid: maybe showing examples of different types of documentation might help - lemme know what I should find and I'll be a gofer for it. 02:12:41 http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE 02:12:46 #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE 02:12:47 #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE 02:12:53 if you scroll to the bottom of that page 02:13:05 there is a gray box with the word: 02:13:21 rchiun has joined: #teachingopensource-posse-zh 02:13:26 Category: POSSE 02:13:27 Yes wiki type of documenting process is a very good starting point but every edit has to verified before allowing it to be available for general use. 02:13:39 today I added that categorization 02:13:57 but editing the page and putting [[Category:POSSE]] at the bottom of the raw wiki source 02:14:10 One of the problems I have with documentation is that there is always too much information to go through. Does anybody have any suggestions on how to cut down or organise the materials so that end users can read the documentation easily? 02:14:10 that is a small, easy thing to do -- make sure that every page is in at least one category 02:14:19 tira, the verification is one which is collectively taken by the group. 02:14:48 MediaWiki makes this work easy: 02:14:50 #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/Special:UncategorizedPages 02:15:01 every page there needs to be in a category 02:15:10 tira, wikis are wonderful in that it helps you track all changes and allows you to revert to what was "right" when something is abused for example. 02:15:35 right 02:15:38 the default is to let edits through 02:15:41 and fix them when they are wrong 02:15:47 more correct information comes out faster that way 02:15:47 if one created a category, is it automatically route to someone to verified and they publish it? 02:16:01 jaricsng: no, it creates a link to the category page 02:16:13 and that link creates a blank page ready to edit 02:16:19 jaricsng, no "approval" routing is done. 02:16:27 this is different from a CMS 02:16:56 a CMS has such approval in its "workflow" 02:17:11 quaid : are you discussing about initial docs or final release type? 02:17:28 every project uses a wiki differently 02:17:37 and in Fedora, we use it two common ways: 02:17:56 * small documents (HOWTO) that are never really final release 02:18:14 * an easy way to collaborate as a large group on content that gets edited and approved for release 02:18:16 the challenge with CMSes is that it needs a dedicated set of admins to do the approvals of sorts. that can, in general, but a bottleneck. There is still merit though and you can still do that on wikis with moderated pages for example. 02:18:25 right 02:18:35 we are working to make some parts of fedoraproject.org use a CMS 02:18:39 the front page, for example 02:18:43 #link http://www.stcsig.org/usability/newsletter/0908-Friction.htm - Usability Interface to documentation. 02:18:45 quaid: documents in companies are official policies etc. which lead to all sort of obligations, so how to draw the line? 02:18:50 but that is always a very small % of the overall pages. 02:18:55 * harish time for tea? 02:19:08 harish: tea break? :) 02:19:14 * harish yep 02:19:24 * harish it's 10:20 am here for us :-) 02:19:26 tira: open source communities can be more flexible 02:19:38 but there are pages that are not editable by everyone 02:19:48 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal 02:19:52 tira, see the immutable pages on wikipedia 02:20:00 that entire section is edited only by one person in Fedora, maybe two 02:20:20 ok, have some tea, good time here too 02:20:46 quaid: do you want to come back later, or wrap up now? 02:20:47 * harish can we just hop out and get the munchies and come back in? or is food and drinks not allowed in the lab? jaricsng? 02:21:09 mchua_: I could talk all day :) 02:21:27 but did we want to do any exercises or hands on to see how documentation is made? 02:21:41 harish has quit #teachingopensource-posse-zh 02:21:44 quaid: Sure, that'd be great! 02:21:49 great, i would like to know more about doc and may be see if i can start the easy way first ;) 02:21:51 harish has joined: #teachingopensource-posse-zh 02:21:52 quaid: We'll be back in 15m, if that's enough time. 02:21:53 We will be back in 15 minutes! 02:21:56 ok, contact me when done with your tea :) 02:21:59 ok, I'll be here 02:22:09 what is CMS? 02:22:47 quaid, thank you for your contribution here 02:23:07 quaid: will SMS you when we're back - I'll probably just be here most of the time anyway 02:23:22 * mchua_ runs briefly to stuff face - snacks are next door, I can rapidly consume small amounts of food ;) 02:25:07 How are you 02:37:38 tira: (if no one answered) interpreded languages remove the barrier-to-entry that compiled languaged like C have. 02:37:54 xinyi: CMS == content management system -- Drupal, Joomla!, and Plone are common examples 02:38:10 the important word is 'management' 02:38:25 the focus of the tool is on the management of the content -- when it is published, when it expires, etc. 02:39:16 it also has tools for an approval flow 02:39:20 for example 02:39:27 i. first person writes content 02:39:50 ii. second person gets a notice that the content is ready for editing; second person edits and approves _or_ pushes the content back for rewriting 02:39:54 * mchua_ back. 02:40:02 iii. third person gets the editor's approval and pushes it to publish live 02:40:12 CMSes are popular at corporations :) 02:41:10 a CMS makes it hard to get content live in front of other people -- it is designed to be an appropriate barrier 02:41:24 a wiki is different -- the whole idea is to make the lowest barrier possible. 02:43:16 so 02:43:28 right now in Fedora Project, we are very very close to the Fedora 12 release 02:43:40 so there is no work being done on formal/official documentation 02:43:43 that is, the work here: 02:43:48 #link http://docs.fedoraproject.org 02:43:53 is all finished for Fedora 12 02:44:21 people are still finding errors (bugs) in the F12 docs, and are filing bugs, and those are being fixed and made ready for update after the F12 release. 02:44:27 but what you see on that page (docs.fedoraproject.org) 02:44:32 is the end result of a lot of work 02:44:39 with some of it happening first on the wiki 02:44:53 When did the work for F12 documentation finish? 02:45:14 quaid: we talked about the idea of a release cycle yesterday, and I went through an explanation of Fedora's release cycle, it's a new concept for pretty much everyone. 02:45:30 ok 02:46:00 #link http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-docs-tasks.html 02:46:22 48. String Freeze: GA Release Notes Mon 2009-10-26 02:46:32 oh, right! We have a task list... I didn't show that yesterday. 02:46:33 that string freeze means, the content was finished and made ready for translation 02:47:10 quaid: btw, it's just a few minutes before everyone comes back from coffee and we can go into an exercise if you want. 02:47:11 there are several important types of documents for each release: 02:47:21 * release notes -- tracks important changes from previous release 02:47:59 * installation guide(s) -- step-by-step on how to install Fedora Linux 02:48:00 I am back from a good tea break. 02:48:18 * other guides -- more general system administration guides 02:48:28 the last of those, the other guides, are the most amount of content, but ... 02:48:32 they change the least between releases 02:48:38 the release notes have the most change 02:48:43 almost 90% of it is different every time 02:48:50 and the focus of those is very wide 02:49:12 So, we have release notes, installation guide(s) and other guides in the Fedora documentation. 02:49:40 right, and the other guides are written by just one or two or a few people each 02:49:50 and they work directly in DocBook XML 02:50:10 they require more experience, they are the HArd way 02:50:34 However, I find that for other software not "approved" by Red Hat, I need to go to other websites to get the installation instructions. 02:50:41 the release notes would take even more work ... if they were done by just one person 02:51:05 kinchew: yes, we don't try to gather together all those different upstream instructions. 02:51:41 is there a place where we can find what is classified into release notes, guides etc? 02:52:29 i see, DocBook is the hard way 02:52:34 "Upstream" was a new word for most people yesterday, I think. As a reminder, "upstream" means any place we get "parts" (in this case, different bits of software) from. 02:52:41 right 02:52:43 #link http://www.mjmwired.net/resources/mjm-fedora-f11.html is a good website for personal installation of Fedora 11. 02:52:45 for example, using the GNOME desktop 02:52:59 GNOME writes great guides 02:53:08 why should Fedora rewrite them? 02:53:43 Yes, I agree that there is no need for duplication. 02:54:33 jaricsng: docbook is a 'document processing language', so it is like inserting 'tags' sortof line 'html'. 02:55:07 Is any work done on new types of documentation? 02:55:13 yes 02:55:24 this release has twice as many new documents, i think 02:55:40 partially this is because the Red Hat tech writer team (Content Services, mainlyin Brisbane, AU) 02:55:58 do their writing in Fedora as an 'upstream' with Red Hat Enterprise Linux as the 'downstream' 02:56:15 so all of those guides are potentially going to appear in Enterprise Linux 6 (the next release) 02:56:29 Red Hat does that because customers want it 02:56:48 another person who wanted a special guide in Fedora could put it in there, if they had customers who use Fedora or Enterprise Linux 02:57:31 this is a new event, though 02:58:14 Are you all looking at new types of documentation, e.g. voice-based, video-based, more graphical as opposed to textual documentation? 02:58:45 quaid, do you want me to get everyone's attention back in channel for an exercise? (we've got a bunch of live backchannel right now) 02:58:46 kinchew: graphical is hard to translate 02:58:51 same with voice and video 02:59:03 subtitles -- video 02:59:11 mchua_: do we all have edit capability on a wiki? 02:59:24 kevix: yes, and people have discussed that -- people want to do it 02:59:31 quaid: We should all have Fedora wiki edit privs, yes. 02:59:52 ok ... 02:59:53 quaid: We can probably take up to an hour more to do this (then they're going to call us downstairs for lunch) 03:00:01 ok, that works 03:00:23 here is an overview: 03:00:26 What kind of exercise are we going to do for the next hour? 03:00:37 kinchew: become a release notes writer :) 03:00:48 the release notes start as a number of wiki pages 03:00:48 * kevix keeping thinking about a certain movie with Arnold Schwartenegger with 'Quaid' 03:00:53 Wow! That was quick! 03:01:22 kinchew, well we are in open source 03:01:26 So, now I have become a release notes writer! Fantastic! 03:01:55 * kevix sends kinchew a \o/ 'beverage' to celebrate! 03:02:03 Who will be the installation guide writer and the writer for other guides? 03:02:18 quaid: ok, everyone's on board. go for it! 03:02:27 * mchua_ hasn't done release notes yet either and is excited 03:02:43 ok 03:02:58 #topic Activity: become a release notes writer 03:03:04 I am going to show you the steps for how we do the release notes 03:03:05 In our local language in Singapore, we say, we just "hantam" - or "gasak"! 03:03:12 yeh, kinchew i will support you, right behind you man :) 03:03:17 then have you start your own copy of a release notes page to start work on Fedora 13 03:03:37 1. There are a set of pages on the wiki where anyone can edit and put content 03:03:41 for example: 03:03:43 See, I do have excellent support behind me! 03:03:44 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Desktop_Beat 03:03:44 You are ahead of time Man. I will support you too 03:04:00 OK. Back to serious business! 03:04:27 2. During a long period of time, people are encouraged to write whatever they know about the part of the release that the page covers; in that example, any changes that are visible to a desktop (graphical) user, such as GNOME or KDE 03:04:41 OK. I have gone to the website given above. What next? 03:04:44 -- writing ability is not important; being factually correct is 03:04:56 noted 03:05:06 Great, we must be factual! 03:05:10 -- writers from Fedora Docs read the changes and fix the writing 03:05:17 usually while it is happening, to be most helpful 03:06:11 so we have writing coaches :) 03:06:19 3. According to the Docs schedule (linked above), the team puts a marker on thewiki page saying, "Stop editing, we are preparing htis for the release notes" 03:06:32 fardad has disconnected 03:06:33 On the website, I see writeups on GNOME, KDE and ABRT. What if I want to add in LXDE? 03:06:35 4. The wiki content is converted to DocBook XML 03:06:47 What happens if someone edits the wiki page after the "stop editing" marker has been put up? 03:06:48 5. another tool, Publican, is used to make PO files for translation 03:06:56 #link http://fedorahosted.org/publican 03:07:22 mchua_: if someone edits the page, it makes the work a bit harder, but nothing bad happens 03:07:38 jaricsng, kinchew good ideas guys! 03:07:44 the stop editing marker is usually about 24 hours long 03:08:10 If we want to stop the other contributors from adding contents, why not just disable the privileges? 03:08:27 After that we can reinstate the privileges. 03:08:38 wiki doesn't have fine privileges like that 03:08:53 What about the accuracy of the contents? Who are the checkers? 03:09:41 kinchew: that is the same thing for Wikipedia, its the contributers who check. 03:09:55 it would be nice to be able to dhtat, it could be done, but it's not a real problem so we don't solve it ;0ss 03:09:59 So, there are 5 stages before the documentation is published. 03:10:14 * quaid having network problems, sorry for the delay 03:10:30 kinchew: about accuracy, usually the people putting in the original content are the experts 03:10:33 we rely upon them to be correct 03:10:51 but the release notes are in the Fedora Alpha and Beta, so people read them and file bugs to fix errors in the release notes. 03:10:51 How do you select the writer contributors? 03:10:56 self-electing 03:11:08 its open :) 03:11:12 There must be a leader, right? 03:11:15 kinchew: someone decides to add LXDe for example :) 03:11:18 there is 03:11:33 a person who works in Fedora Docs, we call them 'lead writer' or 'coordinator' 03:11:47 one more note: 03:11:55 when the content comes back from translation, it is put in an RPM package 03:11:57 kinchew: what would the world be if there were no 'leaders' but folks just worked together for a common goal. 03:12:07 There must also be some ground rules, e.g. the amount to be written. Otherwise, there is no end to documentation. 03:12:17 and shipped with Alpha, Beta, Release Candidate (RC) and final Fedora 03:12:32 so people who find problems file bugs in bugzilla.redhat.com, etc. 03:12:35 just like software 03:13:01 documentation is software :) 03:13:02 What about the versioning of the documentation? 03:13:20 How do you give the version numbers? 03:13:37 that is all handled in the Publican toolchain 03:13:49 they are values stored in the DocBook XML, and manually pushed forward 03:14:21 so, the wiki is the upstream source, always changing and not to be relied upon -- this is for the release notes 03:14:35 in a few weeks, the note on the desktop page is removed and it is ready for editing for Fedora 13 03:14:50 at regular intervals, the Docs team takes a snapshot (picture) of the wiki 03:14:54 to convert to XML. 03:14:57 andy questions about that? 03:15:02 any, not andy! 03:15:26 Which XML editor do you use? 03:15:55 Or, is it just a text editor? 03:15:57 I use Emacs 03:16:04 it has nxml-mode which makes it very useful 03:16:07 Great old Emacs! 03:16:15 people use Eclipse, KATE, vi, etc. 03:16:32 there are not any good editors that do wysiwyg (like OpenOffice.org) 03:16:38 Good stuff, now I can tell my students to use such tools! 03:16:41 :) 03:17:04 so for an exercise, here are the steps to follow, then we can do them one at a time 03:17:27 1. copy the [[Documentation_Desktop_Beat]] page to your user namespace (how to coming up) 03:17:28 OK. Let us get started! 03:17:49 2. begin editing that content to add, for example, LXDE content 03:18:04 if it is new content it could be submitted for an update to the Fedora 12 release notes 03:18:09 or saved for Fedora 13. 03:18:24 ok, to start: 03:18:57 * mchua_ can go around the room and help people who are having trouble, if we can't fix things on IRC (preferred). 03:19:03 good, thank you 03:19:37 one way to make a new wiki page is to just type the page address in to the Firefox address window 03:19:43 a capture of the your screen on how it is done would be nice here 03:19:43 so, if you use this: 03:20:06 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Quaid/Documentation_Desktop_Beat 03:20:14 it will till you the page doesn't exist 03:20:14 jaricsng: want to make screencaps? ;) 03:20:29 then go to the address bar in Firefox and replace 'Quaid' with your username 03:20:32 e.g. 03:20:43 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Mchua/Documentation_Desktop_Beat 03:20:49 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Mchua/Documentation_Desktop_Beat 03:20:54 jinx :) 03:21:37 heh 03:21:49 I got my wiki page but how do I insert the page? 03:22:09 no permission to perform edit 03:22:14 on the page it should say: 03:22:22 "There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, search the related logs, or edit this page. " 03:22:37 you can click on "edit this page" and it will edit the page as new. 03:22:44 jaricsng: you may need to login 03:22:49 btw 03:22:56 if you use a URL with HTTP 03:23:00 the page will not be editable 03:23:07 only pages under HTTPS protocol are editable 03:23:34 if you want to record your screen, you can use an online resource called screentoaster.com. 03:23:49 * mchua_ screenshotting 03:24:00 * mchua_ liveblogging instructions 03:24:46 before we continue, let's make sure we all can edit a page under their own username 03:24:58 OK. I managed to get into the editor on that page. Great! I will now make some changes. 03:25:18 in the wiki, pages in the User:YourUsername are called your "sandbox", which is an idiom meaning, place you are safe to play in. 03:26:08 Can you explain the Summary part at the bottom of the editor? 03:26:22 yes! 03:26:40 Also, what is the meaning of "Watch this page"? 03:26:43 kinchew: have you discussed commit log messages when working with a version control ssystem such as git or Subversion? 03:26:46 if you are like me, you need to login to edit the page, oops 03:27:01 Commit log message - Yes! 03:27:16 ok, the summary is a commit log message for the wiki page 03:27:20 look at this page: 03:27:21 Jaric Sng - I have already logged in. 03:27:40 https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Documentation_Desktop_Beat&action=history 03:27:48 #link https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Documentation_Desktop_Beat&action=history 03:28:00 you get to that page through the "history" link at the top of the page 03:28:15 that shows all the edits and the summaries 03:28:23 the purpose of a summary is to: 03:28:27 i. briefly say what you did 03:28:35 ii. also say WHY you did it 03:28:46 for example, if you put in a section about an LXDE feature 03:28:51 your summary might say: 03:29:03 "Added content about LXDE because it was missing and people like LXDE!" 03:29:30 Got it! 03:30:22 the watch page button 03:30:27 when checked 03:30:46 means you receive notice when that page is edited. 03:31:07 this is one way content is checked by other writers, and also how we collaborate quickly. 03:31:13 I'm working my way through getting this exercise screenshotted, btw. 03:31:15 #link http://blog.melchua.com/2009/11/11/how-to-become-a-release-notes-editor/ 03:31:25 if you add content, I get an email about the change (or see it in my RSS feed), then i can visit the page and fix any mistakes, etc. 03:31:26 I'll post to this channel every time I update it with a new screenshot. 03:31:33 thx mchua_ 03:32:56 ok, once you have the blank page open, for example: 03:33:00 #link https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User:Quaid/Documentation_Desktop_Beat&action=edit 03:33:13 go back to the original, source page: 03:33:20 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Desktop_Beat 03:33:32 and click the "edit" button at the top of the page 03:33:36 which takes you to this page: 03:33:55 #link https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Documentation_Desktop_Beat&action=edit 03:34:11 Great! I managed to add in some contents on LXDE. I have saved this page. 03:34:25 this is a great way to learn, man, may be can get our student to do that, instead of them playing games and msn when we are teaching ! 03:34:37 jaricsng: :) 03:35:15 lockhy has disconnected 03:35:24 to continue to the steps, even though some of you have moved ahead (which is good!) just being complete: 03:35:39 highlight the content in " 03:35:43 https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Documentation_Desktop_Beat&action=edit 03:35:49 * quaid has irc problem, one second 03:36:13 roger_ch_ has joined: #teachingopensource-posse-zh 03:36:18 jaricsng, exactly. empowerment instead of boredom 03:36:38 so highlight the content in "Editing Documentation Desktop Beat" 03:36:41 yep, use as many as of the senses to learn better 03:36:59 copy and paste that in to the blank page under your [[User:Name/Documentation Desktop Beat]] 03:37:06 a couple of useful links: 03:37:22 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Editing 03:37:24 especially: 03:37:37 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Editing#Marking_Technical_Terms 03:38:03 and a general wiki page naming/structure page: 03:38:06 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_structure 03:38:18 so, once you have edited the page in your user "sandbox" 03:38:31 agreed. a great way to learn. Empowerment. 03:38:39 if you have any new content you want to submit to the Docs team 03:38:47 you would join the mailing list (fedora-docs-list@redhat.com) 03:39:04 #link http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list 03:39:36 then send an email saying, "I wrote this LXDE content, it can be used for Fedora 12, or should I save it to work on for Fedora 13?" 03:39:44 then send them a link to your user sanbox copy 03:39:51 sandbox copy, that is 03:40:36 the reason for doing this is, you can make changes to the page -content- without touching the special page marked " Document is Final " 03:40:43 * quaid pauses for questions 03:40:56 * mchua_ is wondering where people are in these instructions 03:41:05 * mchua_ has just copy-pasted the documentation page source to her sandbox space 03:41:45 mchua_: yes, I sped through the instructions 03:41:55 and now is a good time to see where people are and solve individual problems, questions, etc. 03:42:43 Should people be posting links to their current sandbox space here? 03:42:52 Here's mine: 03:42:53 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Mchua/Documentation_Desktop_Beat 03:43:02 (I've just copied the source in, I haven't edited anything yet.) 03:43:20 yeah, let's see your pages 03:44:42 xinyi, YeLong, jaricsng, rchiun, pohyee-cheong, tira, yipch, kinchew (I think that's everyone? harish?) - what have you got so far? Go ahead and post in the URL of the page you're working on 03:45:28 posted it on the fedora where it has a reference to my page, 03:45:42 using [[User:Name/Documentation Desktop Beat]] 03:46:26 * mchua_ realizes this would be SO MUCH FASTER as a video instead of screenshots, does that instead 03:48:27 here are the important parts to take away from this: 03:48:43 * It is easy for a person to copy a wiki page to their own sandbox to work on it; it is also "safe" 03:49:05 Mel, just got out of "LOST". Can't post yet. But getting excited. Learning lot of good tools. Thanks to all! 03:49:07 Sorry, I was helping YeLong to find the latest time for him to go to the Airport tonight. Anyway, my page is found here: https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User:Kinchew/Documentation_Desktop_Beat&action=submit 03:49:08 * People are encouraged to make edits on the wiki; we say "be bold" 03:49:42 * Content from the wiki can be grouped (aggregated) in to a guide -- small parts add to a larger, complete whole. 03:49:53 I have just added in one or two sentences on LXDE. It is just a test. 03:49:59 * once a complete whole, it can move through the Fedora Project release process just like other source code and packages 03:50:05 So, how do you do the aggregation? 03:50:07 kinchew: that's fine, test for now is good 03:50:17 don't expect anyone to write a lot of new content right now :) 03:51:02 mchua: here 03:51:14 mchua: here's mine. have not edit anything yet https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pohyee-cheong/Documentation_Desktop_Beat 03:51:20 kinchew: we copy the wiki source to an XML document, then add the XML markup 03:52:34 kinchew: each page from the wiki becomes a chapter of the aggregate work 03:52:58 Guest35060 has disconnected 03:53:01 Mel, I think there is no need to do a video clip. I believe we can catch up. 03:53:25 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Mchua/Documentation_Desktop_Beat 03:53:35 i like the part on the aggregation 03:54:01 here is the XML source in the git repository for that desktop page: 03:54:05 https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/browser/en-US/Desktop.xml 03:54:09 #link https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/browser/en-US/Desktop.xml 03:54:18 and here is what it looks like when the XML is built in to HTML: 03:54:48 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Harishpillay/Documentation_Desktop_Beat 03:55:04 #link http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f12/en-US/html/sect-Release_Notes-Changes_in_Fedora_for_Desktop_Users.html 03:55:11 does that make sense? 03:55:12 I believe there is a XSS file for the presentation part, right? 03:55:16 the wiki => xml = html? 03:55:33 kinchew: yes, XSL is used in making the HTMl, then a CSS stylesheet for the HTML 03:56:43 Sorry, it should be XSL and not XSS. My XML knowledge is getting rusty! 03:56:45 that is -- Publican takes XML + XSL and makes HTML + CSS 03:57:12 or XML + XSL and makes PDF, PostScript, plain text -- many output formats are possible 03:57:21 * quaid notes it is really this: 03:57:24 I see the DRAFT watermark on the web pages. I suppose it will be removed once it is officially approved. Who will approve it? 03:57:34 XML + PO (translated strings) + XSL :) 03:57:47 kinchew: yes, it is removed in the final package 03:58:01 the Docs team or lead writer remove it for the webpage 03:58:08 and they remove it when they build the final RPM 03:58:39 on this page" 03:58:44 #link https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/browser 03:58:45 So, I suppose that is about all there is on documentation, right? What about those other stuff pertaining to disclaimers? 03:58:58 under the "Last change" column 03:59:13 note the "Remove draft status" log entry 03:59:27 John J. McDonough is the lead writer for the release notes 03:59:39 Great stuff! I didn't learn all these when I was doing my university course! 03:59:41 and that entry was him removing the draft mark for the package 03:59:50 #link https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/log/en-US 04:00:09 on the night Fedora 12 goes live, the Docs team changes the front page of docs.fedoraproject.org 04:00:16 and puts up builds of the documents without the draft mark. 04:00:24 a note: 04:00:34 docs.fedoraproject.org work (publishing) is done manually 04:00:44 but we are putting in a new CMS (called Zikula) 04:00:51 That is really tough! 04:00:57 because it will make it easier to publish these formal guides. 04:01:17 Now, I have just come across a new CMS - Zikula! 04:01:18 so although the CMS has more approval steps, different from the wiki, 04:01:33 the CMS will make it easier to add contributors who can approve. 04:01:43 for example, the lead writer for the release notes (jjmcd) 04:01:55 can be given just the privileges to publish the release notes 04:02:04 and he gets a wen interface with Zikula to do that. 04:02:06 (in the future) 04:02:23 Wow! That is great for Zikula! 04:02:37 I know this is very complicated, but in many ways, it is not any more complex than the process of turning source code in to packages in Fedora. 04:02:40 very, very similar in fact. 04:02:44 The class is silent. Everybody is reading every word you type! 04:03:26 we are the good students ! 04:03:39 Perhaps we can do a summary. 5 steps to do the documentation, right? 04:03:54 * mchua_ made a screencast, uploading to youtube 04:04:28 Mel, have you done that? If so, I am going to check Youtube! 04:04:43 kinchew: not uploaded yet, it's a big (10 minute) file. 04:04:56 ok, yes, a summary ... 04:05:02 I made a screencast so that the next time quaid takes people through this exercise, he can just point to the video. ;) 04:05:09 mchua_: thank you 04:05:09 * mchua_ documented today, just something... different. ;) 04:05:20 that is the power of documentation happening right now 04:05:23 I think most folks in this room pretty much have got it, and don't so much need the video I'm making. 04:06:04 Wow! Welcome to the new way of teaching and learning. IRC, typing furiously, silence, zodbot, transbot, open source, Youtube, screencast! 04:06:12 I'm wondering if someone else should do the summary? see if we are missing anything 04:06:22 kinchew: LOL yes 04:06:40 for the record, this is quaid's tweet - quaid 04:06:40 04:06:40 Multi-tasking: teaching FLOSS docs to #POSSE-APAC Singapore in IRC http://bit.ly/35AO2R & playing Take Off! w/ family http://bit.ly/473b4b 04:06:49 heh 04:06:52 quaid, thank dude! 04:07:05 in that game, one of my daughters landed in Malaysia, too! 04:07:27 quaid, ah, not quite there, but atleast is in the same time zone :-) 04:08:14 Ok, folks, the screencast is going to take a while to upload but if you want to see it come by my computer. 04:08:14 question to all: can you use these tools in your classes/courses? 04:08:26 ...oh, wait - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJXyeIS-eIU 04:08:28 #link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJXyeIS-eIU 04:08:32 thank you 04:08:38 it's processing, but again, I'm about to play it on my computer. 04:08:39 let's discuss this after lunch 04:09:21 quaid, thank you! 04:10:07 you are all very welcome 04:10:21 I'll continue to lurk on all these IRC channels for any questions and other fun :) 04:11:12 harish-laptop: yeah, I was hoping we'd get a Singapore landing, but no luck 04:20:56 Guest38648 has disconnected 04:27:05 pohyee-cheong has disconnected 04:27:23 (this is Mel, for a moment) - quaid, I'll be back to fill you in on what just happened in the classroom (fun stuff!) in about 5m. 04:27:27 It's pretty awesome. 04:31:06 yipch2 has disconnected 04:31:53 yum install istanbul 04:34:18 mchua: Thank you for the demo of Istanbul. 04:34:19 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ScreenCasting 04:34:45 The link above will have instructions on how to install and use Istanbul. 04:35:00 You can actually use this to screencast anything you've been learning this week if you want to take the videos back and share it with your students. ;) 04:35:10 I think... it's time for food. 04:35:27 #topic lunchtime 04:35:36 quaid, around? 04:36:35 I'm going to excitedly braindump in here as usual about what just happened in the classroom, for when you get back from your game-playing. 04:36:43 For the record: 04:37:03 quaid just led our class through becoming Docs contributors - making edits on the wiki to the Desktop release notes. 04:37:21 (It's the first time a lot of the folks here had wiki-edited, beyond making their user page on Monday, so it was *very* good.) 04:38:20 During the process, I created a screencast (which is on YouTube now, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJXyeIS-eIU) of the instructions so it would be faster to explain next time, if Karsten wants to teach it again. 04:38:40 When I finished the screencast, I said "I finished the screencast," and while it was uploading everyone crowded around my monitor to watch the video. 04:38:41 There is another one of these screencasting software tools. This one is called Wink - http://www.debugmode.com/wink/. You have both the Linux and Windows versions. 04:38:59 And asked how I made the screencast. :) 04:39:07 An Istanbul tutorial ensued. 04:39:36 #info Istanbul is a tool we should teach right away at the next POSSE - it's incredibly useful for people learning new things to be able to document what they're learning that way. 04:40:02 We also had a good question from tira about how changes would get made to the original page - since we made our changes in a sandbox, for this exercise. 04:40:17 "Oh," I said. "You could have made changes directly to the original page." 04:40:27 We talked a little about being polite, about comfort levels in editing various pieces of information. 04:40:32 I introduced the idea of "BE BOLD." 04:40:59 It's OK to try something out - because if you "make a mistake," people won't be angry at you, because it is very easy to undo your changes. 04:41:31 So experiment, try things out, try it even if you aren't *completely* sure it's right - someone will undo it (and they'll be happy you tried!) if needed. 04:41:50 Harish and I showed them how reverting edits on the wiki works, and how easy and fast it was. 04:42:23 And when we looked at the history page, we pointed out how you could compare revisions, and how the history also gave you links to that person's (the person who made the edit) wiki user page (so you can find out who they are) 04:42:36 and their talk page (so you can leave them a message saying "hey, I changed your edit back, here is why") 04:42:43 and their contributions log (so you can see what else they've done). 04:42:54 We got questions about what talk pages are for. 04:43:05 We explained it in terms of two types of talk pages - user talk pages, and then talk pages. 04:43:27 User talk pages are pages like https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_talk:Mclasen 04:43:28 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_talk:Mclasen 04:43:47 They are like the "inbox" for somebody on the wiki - this is a way to leave people notes. 04:43:53 If you don't know their email address, for example. 04:44:07 Page talk pages are similar things - for non users. 04:44:18 In the Fedora wiki, these are the "discussion" tabs on the top of every page. 04:44:34 I haven't seen discussion (talk) pages used a lot on the Fedora wiki, but Wikipedia uses them extensively. 04:45:05 They are so you can talk about the content on a page without affecting the content of the page itself. 04:45:10 For instance, if I'm reading... 04:45:12 #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese 04:45:28 and I want to make a suggestion on how to improve it, but I don't want to have my conversations cluttering up the page 04:45:44 (which after all, should be good-looking because it's what the public will see) 04:45:46 I can go to the talk page 04:45:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cheese 04:45:54 #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cheese 04:46:11 and make comments like "hey, paneer isn't listed on this page, should it be?" 04:46:12 #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cheese#What_about_paneer.3F 04:46:28 This is useful in the classroom, too. 04:46:45 For instance, if your class's webpage was a wiki, you might have a page for a homework assignment. 04:47:04 And on the talk page, students could put things like questions about the assignment, or links to resources they found helpful in completing it... 04:47:07 I'll see if I can find an example. 04:47:18 roger_ch_ has disconnected 04:47:53 mchua_: does the morning course end? 04:48:13 raeLLL: yeah, people are eating lunch, I'm just taking notes 04:50:24 what time does the afternoon course begin? 04:51:16 raeLLL: I'm guessing we'll be back within an hour, so... 2pm, perhaps? 04:51:44 And in the back of the room, Jaric and Tirath are teaching Kelvin (who's been absent for some of the session because he has classes to teach) how to use pastebin. 04:51:47 \o/ 04:52:26 quaid, you have started off our day with MAGIC SUPER WIN OF AWESOME. 04:52:27 Thank you. 04:52:41 I'm going to get some food. 04:54:30 sag paneer? 04:58:31 what is the afternoon session? 05:06:58 wow, wow 05:07:14 what you just did with them was all the part I wanted to do but knew we couldn't as easily in IRC without another hour 05:07:26 showing history, be bold, reverting, etc. 05:10:02 talk pages, etc. 05:10:05 very, very good 05:10:23 ok, now it's time to put girls to bed - I'm reading to them from a Nancy Drew mystery :) 05:10:26 bbl 05:29:01 * mchua_ back 05:29:11 thanks quaid. I'll see ya later. 05:35:21 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20091111094923390 05:35:57 MS patented sudo #link http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20091111094923390 05:42:20 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20091111094923390 05:42:31 Microsoft used to provide some good support for eLearning standards, e.g. their LRN (Learning Resource Network) initiative. I don't know what happened to this initiaitive. It looks like they have abandoned this initiative. They have also bought a license for SCORM technology from a company called HunterStone. However, everything is very hush hush. If Microsoft wants to be recognised as an important player i 05:45:40 pohyee-cheong has disconnected 05:46:56 neverho0d__ has disconnected 05:48:50 #topic A tour of projects 05:49:05 Harish is showing some quick links to "look, this stuff exists!" for several types of projects people here are interested in. 05:49:09 Embedded linux: 05:49:17 #https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/AOS 05:49:46 #link https://ccrma.stanford.edu 05:49:50 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/AOS 05:49:56 ccrma == music 05:50:02 ccrma == realtime 05:51:04 #link http://www.gumstix.com/ 05:51:45 #link http://beagleboard.org/ 05:51:51 #link http://www.arduino.cc/ 05:52:46 #link http://www.instructables.com/ 05:53:07 Another Open Hardware website: #link http://www.buglabs.net/ 05:53:24 #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embedded_Linux 05:53:31 buglabs == awesome. magnets for connectors is genius. 05:53:42 #link http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php 05:53:47 #link http://www.ladyada.net/library/equipt/ 05:53:51 #link http://www.ladyada.net/learn/avr/ 05:53:56 #link http://www.ladyada.net/make/x0xb0x/resc.html 06:06:30 #info there are linux thin clients 06:06:36 #link https://fedorahosted.org/k12linux 06:12:11 fangzen has disconnected 06:13:53 #link http://www.ltsp.org/ 06:24:06 xinyi has disconnected 06:33:30 cpe802.pbwiki.com 06:37:09 #link cpe802.pbwiki.com 06:38:17 raeLLL> / whois Zou Dabin 06:38:42 raeLLL> / whois Zou Dabin, please reply 06:41:27 Mr. Zou Dabin is a Reporter/Editor from the Technology and Application Department of the China ComputerWorld. He is a participant in the POSSE Workshop in Singapore. 06:42:04 The POSSE Workshop is held in Singapore in Nanyang Polytechnic from 9 - 13 Nov 2009. 06:43:32 Harish is relating his teaching experiences in the Nanyang Technological University. He teaches a course on Open Source Software. 06:44:26 oh. ladyada. did you mention she does a live 'ask the engineer' show now on the web every week? 06:44:43 His students put up a website at http://cpe802.pbwiki.com. You can see the course syllabus on this wiki. 06:45:48 We are taking a short break of 15 minutes. 06:46:04 harish-laptop has disconnected 06:46:59 I logged into my wiki on fedora.org and started editing the wiki. Subsequently I had to be away from the PC for some time, watching a screencast demo and howto. 06:48:39 azneita has disconnected 06:48:44 When I returned, i changed some text and clicked on preview button. The page refreshed an error msg saying i did not have permissions to edit the page. 06:49:54 I did a page refresh, same msg. I went back one page at a time, all I got was a blank edit page or an error page. 06:50:20 you might be able to use the 'back' button in the browser, then, save your edited text with copy or snarking, then wait for another change to re-edit the page. 06:50:42 If for some reason, the server had to kick me out, thats Okay but why all that I entered has been wiped out? 06:51:52 kevix : I remember you mentioned sag paneer? Do you like North Indian food? 06:53:10 tira: I like 'food' :) I have yet to try a specific type of indian food as I just eat what ever I like -- korma, keema naan, etc. 06:54:02 in New York City, we have lots of Indian and Pakistaanian places. 06:54:52 tira has disconnected 06:59:49 roger_ch has disconnected 06:59:53 rchiun has disconnected 07:01:13 kevix: wait, ladyada does *what?* WANT LINK NOW 07:01:15 * mchua_ searches 07:01:58 * mchua_ finds 07:01:59 #link http://www.adafruit.com/index.php?main_page=chat 07:02:02 I am *so* there. 07:02:28 And now I'm at the front of the room, whee 07:04:40 I'm sure ladyada will like all the fun questions you'll ask. She just got a pick-n-place machine. 07:05:16 raeLLL> I want a confirm from Zou Dabin, if he is still there? 07:05:33 raeLLL> confirmation, 07:06:25 raeLLL> I have read from http://user.ccw.com.cn/ucHome/space.php?uid\u003d158602 07:06:37 http://user.ccw.com.cn/ucHome/space.php?uid=158602 07:08:25 Yes, Mr. Zou Dabin is still here. In fact, he is sitting just behind me. 07:08:48 * kevix looks behind kinchew 07:09:17 #topic zodbot 07:09:28 #action mchua get fedora infra folks on list to make a "how to deploy zodbot" tutorial 07:09:40 (which will be good for both zodbot/fedora infrastructure, as well as the folks here who want to use zodbot) 07:10:01 #topic transbot 07:10:21 yups 07:10:51 Hi Martyn, welcome on board! 07:11:00 hi all 07:11:00 #link https://fedorahosted.org/lingobot/ 07:11:15 let me know if i can do anything back at office 07:11:28 this cld showcase something 07:11:59 #action mchua do the same for lingobot 07:12:04 Hi martz927, you can download all the IRC logs if you want to. However, there is not much to demonstrate. 07:12:15 icic 07:12:25 i have log the irc text on my machine too 07:12:44 Mel has just gone through zodbot and transbot. 07:13:49 Hi martz927, you can download all the IRC logs for the 4 days from this website: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teachingopensource-posse/ 07:14:16 YeLong plans to demonstrate the Eclipse software to all of us. 07:14:37 Mel is now installing the Eclipse software - yum -y install eclipse. 07:16:10 Installing Eclipse is going to take a long time. 07:16:54 Mel is now addressing the Matlab, R and scilab software. 07:18:15 #link http://www.r-project.org/ 07:18:52 R - the open source equivalent of SAS or SPSS, the statistical software packages. 07:19:21 #link http://addictedtor.free.fr/graphiques/ 07:19:56 #link http://www.gnu.org/software/octave/ 07:20:13 #link http://www.scilab.org/ 07:21:14 GNU Octave is a high-level language, primarily intended for numerical computations. It is compatible with Matlab. 07:21:23 #link http://www.scipy.org/ 07:21:38 kinchew, I wouldn't say "compatible with Matlab," but more like "it does a lot of the same things Matlab does" 07:22:22 #link http://www.osalt.com/ 07:23:01 OSALT - Open Source alternatives to commercial software. 07:23:13 #link http://numpy.scipy.org/ 07:23:14 maybe it will be gd to demostrate the functions 07:23:43 Sorry, martz927, we don't have time to do detailed demonstrations. 07:24:17 We have a long list of applications to go through. Mel is doing just that - just touch on the surface. 07:25:05 Mel is now talking about open source data virtualization. 07:25:41 Mel is now showing something on dspGuru - Digital Signal Processing. 07:26:50 #link http://www.dspguru.com 07:27:50 Forgot to mention about Vimeo - video sharing website at http://www.vimeo.com 07:28:48 #link http://www.vimeo.com/1093745 07:28:55 #link http://vis.cs.ucdavis.edu/~ogawa/codeswarm/ 07:29:21 Installation of Eclipse is still going on - altogether 76 files. Now we are just doing the 26th file! 07:32:06 For Build Environment - what are the tools we need? 07:33:56 Mel is now showing the GCC web page. 07:35:54 VCS, compiler, make, build systems, bot that tests stuff, testing tools, packaging tools, packaging infrastructure - these are the items Mel will now cover. 07:36:14 #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revision_control 07:36:28 #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revision_control_software 07:36:29 debian has a meta-package called build-essential 07:36:40 List of revision control systems 07:36:58 #link http://mercurial.selenic.com/ 07:37:18 Bazaar - used by Ubuntu 07:37:38 #link http://bazaar-vcs.org/en/ 07:38:23 #link http://subversion.tigris.org/ 07:38:56 #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concurrent_Versions_System 07:39:35 CVS - Concurrent Version System - #link http://www.nongnu.org/cvs/ 07:40:10 #link http://gcc.gnu.org/ 07:40:29 GCC - GNU C Compiler 07:42:31 Mel is now trying to find a simple example on "make". 07:43:02 #link http://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/make.html 07:43:05 #link http://www.student.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~isg/res/unix/make/ 07:43:13 #link http://singhkunal.com/website/techstuff/tutorials/GNUMakeTutorial.htm 07:43:19 #link http://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/make.html#Simple-Makefile 07:44:20 #link http://www.gnu.org/software/make/ 07:44:38 We will get an expert to guide us through the make procedure tomorrow morning. Perhaps for 1 hour. 07:45:38 Mel is now talking on the 4th item - build systems. 07:46:27 Oh dear, Eclipse's installation is at the 27th file! It is going to be a very long installation! 07:47:16 does Fedora/redhat have a 'hello' package that installs files to create a basic 'rpm' package like debian/ubuntu? 07:47:56 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/UsingKoji 07:47:59 Mel is now doing Koji in Fedora. Don't know what Koji is all about. 07:48:17 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Koji 07:48:43 I think its an automated build system for rpms. 07:48:58 From the website: Koji is the software that builds packages for the Fedora project. 07:52:31 kevix - yes, Koji is an automated build system. With Koji, whenever the code changes, we don't have to go through the compiler, make , build system procedures. 07:54:40 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Bodhi_Guide 07:55:56 Bodhi - Bodhi is a modular web based system that facilitates the process of publishing package updates for fedora-based software distribution. Bodhi is currently used to send out package updates for Fedora. Bodhi is a system internal to Red Hat.It maintains a single stage of repositories by adding/updating/removing packages. 07:56:07 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Bodhi_Guide 07:56:24 Mel is now explaining Bodhi. 07:57:29 #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Build_automation 07:57:52 #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_build_system 07:58:20 #link http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/ 07:59:18 #link http://javatools.wordpress.com/2007/02/23/hudson-a-continuous-build-system/ 07:59:26 Tira just a question on Hudson. 07:59:43 Hudson is a continuous build system. 08:00:00 Mel is now doing something on Tinderbox (software). 08:03:05 Mel is now explaining the Fedora Quality Assurance. 08:05:06 #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinderbox_%28software%29 08:05:27 #action mchua to get fedora QA folks to send links and tips to cool test tools and docs and etc. ( spevack, are you listening? ;) 08:05:38 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA 08:07:32 We are now going for a break. 08:07:32 BREAK TIME! 08:07:36 10 minutes. 08:08:09 Yeah, schools don't typically teach QA - or Support - but in the real world, they're *really* important parts of getting a product to work for customers. 08:08:18 #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_testing 08:09:06 * mchua__ reads up in channel to see if she's missed anything 08:09:41 kevix, not sure what the 'hello' package does - can you explain a bit more? 08:09:43 * mchua__ looks online, too 08:10:13 kevix: disclaimer - I'm relatively new to packaging, so #fedora-devel folks might be able to give you a better/more immediate answer. 08:10:25 kevix: also, isn't it... like... 3am for you, or something? 08:10:57 heh 08:14:59 kevix: from looking around, the hello package sounds like a neat idea - simple example package, from what I'm understanding. 08:15:06 If Fedora doesn't have an equivalent, it should... 08:15:21 #action mchua see if there's a 'hello' (debian package) equivalent for RPMs/Fedora - if not, create 08:15:40 But for packaging resources from Fedora... 08:15:42 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers 08:16:27 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_create_an_RPM_package 08:16:31 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/BuildingPackagesGuide 08:16:45 #info I'm going in order from most beginner-friendly to most comprehensive 08:16:52 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines 08:17:11 #info also Fedora Classroom transcripts are usually good resources 08:17:12 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom 08:17:17 (for just about any topic under the sun) 08:19:28 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Building_RPM_packages_%2820090405%29 08:20:27 #info that last link is how I learned packaging - I highly recommend going through cwickert's transcript if you're interested in learning that. 08:26:31 #topic Getting everyone on Planet 08:29:00 GOAL: by the end of the day, everyone's blog should be on Planet. And I mean *everyone.* 08:29:32 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join_Fedora_Planet 08:32:56 Okay. Everybody should go to this link: 08:32:58 #link https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/ 08:33:14 Log in! 08:33:24 mchua__ has quit #teachingopensource-posse-zh 08:33:49 Click "Join a group" 08:34:27 We're going to join the "web" group. 08:34:53 Click on 'w' (or search for the 'web' group) 08:35:08 you'll see the "Fedora Websites Team" - and to the right, a link that says 'Apply.' 08:35:12 Click 'apply.' 08:35:52 My status is Unapproved. 08:36:16 My account username is "mchua" 08:36:31 My account username is "kinchew". 08:36:33 tira has disconnected 08:36:40 My account username is "yelong" 08:37:17 .fas mchua 08:37:17 mchua__: mchua 'Mel Chua' 08:37:22 .fasinfo mchua 08:37:23 mchua__: User: mchua, Name: Mel Chua, email: mel@redhat.com, Creation: 2008-09-26, IRC Nick: mchua, Timezone: US/Eastern, Locale: en, Extension: 5115368, GPG key ID: , Status: active 08:37:25 mchua__: Approved Groups: cla_done web fedorabugs packager ambassadors marketing cla_fedora sysadmin-test designteam gitfedora-zikula giteducation svnfedora-zikula-theme 08:37:28 mchua__: Unapproved Groups: None 08:37:54 .fasinfo kinchew 08:37:54 mchua__: User: kinchew, Name: Lim Kin Chew, email: kinchew@yahoo.com, Creation: 2009-11-09, IRC Nick: , Timezone: UTC, Locale: en, Extension: 5140163, GPG key ID: , Status: active 08:37:57 mchua__: Approved Groups: cla_done cla_fedora 08:37:59 mchua__: Unapproved Groups: web ambassadors 08:38:20 .fasinfo kinchew 08:38:20 mchua__: User: kinchew, Name: Lim Kin Chew, email: kinchew@yahoo.com, Creation: 2009-11-09, IRC Nick: , Timezone: UTC, Locale: en, Extension: 5140163, GPG key ID: , Status: active 08:38:24 mchua__: Approved Groups: cla_done cla_fedora 08:38:27 .fasinfo yelong 08:38:27 mchua__: Unapproved Groups: web ambassadors 08:38:30 YeLong: User: yelong, Name: Ye Long, email: yelong@gmail.com, Creation: 2009-11-09, IRC Nick: , Timezone: UTC, Locale: en, Extension: 5140165, GPG key ID: , Status: active 08:38:33 YeLong: Approved Groups: cla_done cla_fedora 08:38:36 YeLong: Unapproved Groups: web 08:39:05 kinchew, you're all set. 08:39:08 .fasinfo kinchew 08:39:09 mchua__: User: kinchew, Name: Lim Kin Chew, email: kinchew@yahoo.com, Creation: 2009-11-09, IRC Nick: , Timezone: UTC, Locale: en, Extension: 5140163, GPG key ID: , Status: active 08:39:12 mchua__: Approved Groups: cla_done web cla_fedora 08:39:14 mchua__: Unapproved Groups: ambassadors 08:39:20 YeLong, your turn. 08:39:42 Yes, thank you. I am approved for signed cla group and fedora cla group. 08:39:56 YeLong, you're sponsored. 08:40:02 .fasinfo yelong 08:40:02 mchua__: User: yelong, Name: Ye Long, email: yelong@gmail.com, Creation: 2009-11-09, IRC Nick: , Timezone: UTC, Locale: en, Extension: 5140165, GPG key ID: , Status: active 08:40:03 FAS: jaricsng 08:40:05 mchua__: Approved Groups: cla_done web cla_fedora 08:40:09 mchua__: Unapproved Groups: None 08:40:14 .fas jaricsng 08:40:14 mchua__: jaricsng 'Jaric Sng' 08:40:24 .fasinfo jaricsng 08:40:25 mchua__: User: jaricsng, Name: Jaric Sng, email: jaric.sng@gmail.com, Creation: 2009-11-09, IRC Nick: jaricsng, Timezone: Asia/Singapore, Locale: en, Extension: 5140169, GPG key ID: , Status: active 08:40:27 mchua__: Approved Groups: cla_done cla_fedora 08:40:31 mchua__: Unapproved Groups: web 08:40:45 jaricsng, you should be set now 08:40:49 .fasinfo jaricsng 08:40:49 mchua__: User: jaricsng, Name: Jaric Sng, email: jaric.sng@gmail.com, Creation: 2009-11-09, IRC Nick: jaricsng, Timezone: Asia/Singapore, Locale: en, Extension: 5140169, GPG key ID: , Status: active 08:40:53 mchua__: Approved Groups: cla_done web cla_fedora 08:40:56 mchua__: Unapproved Groups: None 08:41:04 irc://irc.freenode.net/#link https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/ 08:41:28 tira, xinyi, martz927, pohyee-cheong_, yipch... who else needs approval? 08:41:43 Apply for the 'web' group in FAS and tell me your username in this channel and I'll approve you. 08:43:59 mchua: please approve my account login id tiraths. 08:44:32 tira, xinyi, I'll get to you both right now 08:45:20 xinyi, you're all set 08:45:24 .fasinfo zhangxinyi 08:45:24 xinyi: User: zhangxinyi, Name: zhangxinyi, email: 61xinyi@163.com, Creation: 2009-11-09, IRC Nick: None, Timezone: UTC, Locale: C, Extension: 5140167, GPG key ID: None, Status: active 08:45:27 xinyi: Approved Groups: cla_done web cla_fedora 08:45:30 Nicely done :) 08:45:30 xinyi: Unapproved Groups: accounts 08:45:54 .fasinfo tira 08:45:54 mchua__: User "tira" doesn't exist 08:45:57 .fasinfo tiraths 08:45:57 mchua__: User: tiraths, Name: tirath pannu, email: tirathp@yahoo.com, Creation: 2009-11-09, IRC Nick: None, Timezone: UTC, Locale: C, Extension: 5140168, GPG key ID: None, Status: active 08:46:00 mchua__: Approved Groups: cla_done web cla_fedora 08:46:03 mchua__: Unapproved Groups: None 08:46:29 .fasinfo yipchonghun 08:46:29 mchua__: User: yipchonghun, Name: Yip Chong Hun, email: yip_chong_hun@yahoo.com, Creation: 2009-11-10, IRC Nick: , Timezone: UTC, Locale: en, Extension: 5140212, GPG key ID: , Status: active 08:46:32 mchua__: Approved Groups: cla_done cla_fedora 08:46:35 mchua__: Unapproved Groups: web 08:46:52 .fasinfo yipchonghun 08:46:52 mchua__: User: yipchonghun, Name: Yip Chong Hun, email: yip_chong_hun@yahoo.com, Creation: 2009-11-10, IRC Nick: , Timezone: UTC, Locale: en, Extension: 5140212, GPG key ID: , Status: active 08:46:56 mchua__: Approved Groups: cla_done web cla_fedora 08:46:58 yipch, you're all set too. 08:46:58 mchua__: Unapproved Groups: None 08:50:44 can i create my own group? 08:51:06 .fasinfo tiansworld 08:51:07 tiansworld: User: tiansworld, Name: None, email: tiansworld@gmail.com, Creation: 2008-04-17, IRC Nick: tiansworld, Timezone: None, Locale: None, Extension: 5103809, GPG key ID: None, Status: active 08:51:09 tiansworld: Approved Groups: cla_done cvsl10n cla_fedora 08:51:12 tiansworld: Unapproved Groups: None 08:54:30 Run this command: 08:54:31 ssh-keygen -t rsa 09:10:29 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join_Fedora_Planet 09:12:04 FALLBACK TIME! 09:12:13 Everybody paste the feed to your blog in here, and I'll add you to the TOS feed. 09:12:20 Planet TOS feed, that is. 09:12:24 my blog: jaricsng.wordpress.com 09:12:33 Mel, my blog is at http://eunisim.blogspot.com 09:12:57 mchua: tira's link http://tiraths.wordpress.com/ 09:14:19 mine is http://yelongclass.blogbus.com/ 09:20:13 mine is http://cheongpy.wordpress.com 09:20:20 Cheong Poh Yee is my name 09:22:29 #link http://www.sububi.org/2009/07/27/the-busy-students-guide-to-project-blogging/ 09:22:53 #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_Blogs 09:23:38 And that's all, folks! 09:23:47 Thank you, Mel! 09:23:57 Wonderful day, today! 09:24:00 #endmeeting